High Speed Film, the Bad Old Days? I want GRAIN

Back in the 1960's we had Agfa Isopan Record (nominal E.I. of 1,000)

and Ilford HPS (800) while Kodak Royal-X Pan recording was maybe half

a stop faster but only available in 100 ft. rolls. Then Kodak

introduced 2475 recording, about the same speed but on a thin Estar

base, and started selling loaded 36 exposure casettes as well as 150

ft. rolls. Each new generation was a bit less grainy than the last,

but they were all seriously grainy. Now Ilford Delta 3200 isn't

really any grainier than the Tri-X of forty years ago. Is there any

film/developer combination today that will give you the kind of golf

ball sized grain that you got so easily (and probably didn't want)

back then?

Interesting question Al. As you've noted manufacturers have been producing film with less and less grain. The implied subliminal message was and still is; is that graininess is a bad thing. Personally, I don't think grain is good or bad, it merely works aesthetically for some photos and not so well for other images. I've even seen critiques where a photo was given a lower rating (unfairly) on the basis of graininess alone.<p>

 

I've read that if you push Tri-X to 5000 and develop it in HC100 Replenisher for 5 1/2 minutes at 75 degrees you'll get giant grain. <p>

 

Apart from pushing, perhaps Double-X and D-19 might work.

Oops. That's HC-110 Replenisher.

I know Sunpak made filters that went over the film gate to give "golf ball' grain,. Adorama has them for 18 bucks here: http://www.adorama.com/SUPG.html . I'd try that, for that little, it couldn't hurt. Other than that, just, as said before, try pushing some black and white film.

I was about to give up on Delta 3200 until I souped in PMK Pyro. Really changes the characteristics of the grain of this film. Much more gritty, sharp. I don't know about golf ball sized grain. . .definitely more defined grain.

Rate Ilford HP5 at 3200 ASA and dev in Ilford PQ Universal developer diluted 1+6 for 8 minutes at 20 C.

You might want to try some "vintage" film. I have some Eastman Double X (a pretty grainy cine film already) which expired in 1960. I shoot it at 100 ASA. Lots of base fog, but it scans well and prints well. The results are wonderfully grainy. I like to develop it in caffenol wich gives it a nice salt and pepper grain.

Coming at this from another direction. If all you're after is grainy prints, why not use a wider angle lens, and just print from the centre part of the neg?

 

Or, if you're into making up your own developers, there's one of Geoffrey Crawley's FX series (FX9? - I think) that produces enormous grain. The formula can be found in old copies, circa 1961-65, of "The British Journal of Photography Annual".

 

If you're interested, I'll dig out the formula and post it.

Delta 400 in Diafine. The grain is a distraction!

Delta 3200 developed in Rodinal 1+10, 10 minutes at 20C.

IIRC, Dektol, when used as a film dev., gives large grain. Sorry, I don't have a time for you, but I'm pretty sure that you'd use it 1+1.

Don't forget the benefits of simple overexposure and vigorous agitation. Shoot scenes with

a lot of gray tones; that's where the grain really makes itself known.

I shoot B&W about 99% of the time, but every now and then I like to shoot chromes. What I miss is some type of really grainy color slide film. Anyone remember the old 3M Scotch 1000 film. Now that was some grain. Anyone know of anything like that being made now?

Al, The 2475 was beautiful stuff and I agree, grain as we have enjoyed in the past is slowly being rendered by the way side. What about controlled reticulation? I have done this and have gone from large grain (seperate kernels) to large clumps of grain in extreme temperature differences. TXP works well as does APX100/400. Don't waste your time with t-grained films! Testing (clip tests worked for me) will have to be done to get the look your after starting with a 5 degree temp difference... just a thought.

2475 in D-50 now that was grain. Does any film manufactuer still make a thick emulsion film? The reason it was on Ester base was that the Emulsion was so thick. Try to run some Tri X through Rodinol like suggested before but at like 1-8 or 1-10. Another thought is to push an E-6 high speed film then convert to B&W.

 

Larry

You have gotten a lot of suggestions to push film for xtra grain but that will

only work if you are OK with very little shadow detail.

 

if you want nice tonality and grain you might try delta 3200 rated at 800

developed in beutlers with potassium iodide added.

 

Process the film out a little thin so you have to print a higher contrast to get

back to normal. You will get beautiful glowing full range tones and very

beautiful and plentiful grain.

The conventional wisdom is to process a fast film in something like Dektol and develop it to high contrast to bring out the grain.

 

The method I like is to overexpose a fast film by about two stops and then under develop it. Use something like Beutler's or Rodinal. You will then be forced to use a hard filter when you print. That will REALLY make the grain pop.

IMHO nice grain can be attained from:

Tri-X in Rodinal

Delta 400 in Rodinal

 

 

Another film to try is FORTEPAN, used to be really grainy and easy to reticulate but haven;t used it in a long time.

Wow, what a lively and inspiring thread!

 

My 0.05's worth: normally or 800-rated Tri-X or hp5+ in 1+3 Xtol at 24ﾰC or even 28ﾰC

(with hardening fixer, maybe; I did without).

 

All this is probably humbled by PN-member ALKOS's attempt with hp5+ souped in FX-1:

http://pad.go.pl/ (go 'varia').

Well, I guess I got me some answers. I'd forgotten all about how grainy Eastman Double-X 5222 could be. I looked, but Kodak seems to have stopped making 4X Pan also, their wonderfully grainy high speed motion picture stock. I'm going to try some Dektol. I'm also thinking that we still have a few independant print shops around. Perhaps one of them has some packages of litho developer tucked in a corner someplace. Thanks, everybody!

Al,<p>

 

One other suggestion which might work for your application: Kodak HIE.

I am about to process some Maco Cube in Diafine rated at 200-350 I bet it has huge grain any bets?

 

Larry

Eastman Double-X (aka Eastman 5222) in Rodinal is pretty grainy. Here is a sample.<div></div>

Ilford HP5+ exposed to ISO 800 and developed in Rodinal 1+25 will make very contrast, very grainy, yet very sharp images.

I think Diafine has a tendency to clump grain or something like that. Would be nice to know what actually happens on the grain level. Could someone explain the many ways developers control grain? Neopan is a finer-grained (finest?) among older style ISO 400 films. Try it in Diafine. Big, weird grain not typical of Neopan. HP5+ also has much bigger grain in Diafine, I hear.