High School Bball- Feedback wanted

<p>Hey there, so I am a full time teacher, and it seems, a part time sports photographer these days! :-)<br>

I shoot with a D90, have little experience, and have just taught myself as I go along...<br>

So our HS gym in Boston is one of the worst lit that I have seen, and I need some critique/help with the shots before our first home game of the season.<br>

Last week I shot at another school with much better lighting, here is the link to what I got. I started with my nikon 35-70 which did ok, then went on to the 35mm 1.8, which was much better light wise, but far too wide.<br>

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tbaphotoalbum/sets/72157622992273618/<br>

The first game is the boys away game, and the second is the girl's first home game.<br>

I would really appreciate feedback from anyone that actually know what they're doing! :-)<br>

Things I am specifically dealing with:<br /> 1. How high to crank the ISO, I seem to be scared... based on these, any reason to be?<br /> 2. I just got a 50mm 1.8, so the 35mm being too wide issue should get better... any other "must have" lens that isn't $100, 000?<br /> As far as composition, what am I doing wrong/could do better? I usually have full access to the baseline/court...<br /> <br /> Thanks so much for your help!!<br>

R</p>

<p>I just shot first home basketball games in Attleboro, MA. My 3rd or 4th yr. Using D300 & D300S, 70-200 f2.8, 85 1.8 and 17-50 2.8. Have used a 50 1.8 before also. Use central area metering.<br>

My settings on Friday were 1/320, f2.8, and ISO 1250, 1600 and finally 2000, with mainly the 70-200 and 17-55. on manual. Once I got a decent exposure combination. Just changed the ISO as the images got darker. There was still some light coming in thru some windows high up on 2 walls, but got dark soon and bumped up the ISO.<br>

That Dorrchester or English gym looks much like Attleboro's. Same blue pads on walls, flourescent lights, but perhaps there are a few more in my gym. With very dark skinned kids you have further problems lighting their faces.<br>

So go up to ISO 2000, 1/400 and f2.2 or 2.5 ( for more DOF). I think your f1.8 is really too short. Set these manually. I use Auto WB, and fix later in LightRoom. Your images on Facebk look too warm. Make them 'whiter' and may effectively make image brighter as well. Go to the HS during a practice and try these settings. Then write down what is best for that particular gym in a little notebk.!<br>

Now - critique. Why don't you allow comments on your Flickr page? Then someone can critique individual images.<br>

Some of the shots - if for sale - are not worth displaying. I get better/tougher on myself all the time. As a photo editor once said - no ball, no faces = no picture! Ball and back of head = nothing. blurry = no picture! Delete! Don't show even the mediocre.<br>

shoot from behind the backboard and just off the sides of it. Just be ready to get crashed into!<br>

Kneel down, sit down as well as stand up to shoot. shoot more verticle than horizontal shots. Just noticed that most of mine were verticle while editing the 3 games I shot.<br>

Analize the photos in the Globe and Herald and Baskeball mags. Go to a Borders, grab a few mags and have a coffee! Look at them 2 or three times. Where are they shot from on the floor? From what angle?<br>

Go out to the side lines, at the corner &/or a few feet towards center. That's a good place to be with an 85 1/8 lens. the 85 is great for volleyball too, if you ever shoot that sport. However there is a sports shooter on Facebk who uses a 200 f2. What great shots and smooth bokeh. go here: <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmfrphotos/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmfrphotos/</a> Nothing beats a prime!</p>

<p>50mm f/1.8 should be an improvement. You could also rent lenses at Calumet if you want to try something out. I like an 85 f/1.8 or f/1.4 from the baseline on FX cameras; should still work nicely on DX. FWIW, I tend to pair that with a second body that has a 24 or 35mm in case there's a scrum under the basket or something I want to capture.</p>

<p>A couple comments to echo Steve: I like the baseline, as close to the backboard as you can manage. I tend to shoot from a closed / defensive stance, shooting almost directly off my left shoulder. That way if I get slammed, they're getting the meat of my shoulder / thigh, not stuff that really hurts. I also shoot with both eyes open so I can see when something out of frame is headed my way.<br>

I used to shoot PJ, and I would agree with Steve for pro work that you want to ruthlessly edit. Of late, I'm shooting more for parents, and I tend to go with the rule, "Would Mom want to see that?" (note that I'm now shooting almost exclusively for charity / Special Olympics)</p>

<p>Guys, you rock, thanks for the feedback!!</p>

<p>@Steve: The reason that I don't allow comments on there is that I know I am going to get kids posting all sorts of stuff that shouldn't be there, um, if you get my meaning. Do you disagree with that approach?<br>

As for the images, I never sell any, I am a teacher at Dorchester High, and so really just post them up there for the kids to DL.<br>

@Todd: Do you think I should stick with the 50 1.8, or do you think I should look into the 85 1.8 too? I know that sooner or later (hopefully I can hold out until the summer!) I'm going to cave in and get a D700... just too sexy not to! With that in mind, what do you think?<br>

I do also shoot the volleyball, football, in fact... everything. It's all up there on our Flickr page if you want to check it out... again, thanks guys!! :-)<br>

R</p>

<p>Definitely shoot vertical when shooting basketball.. since it's a tall sport you don't have to worry as much about chopping off arms, nor do you have as much wasted space to have to crop afterwards. </p>

<p>Ok, I thought that I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason not to; seems more fair than the other way around... comments on! :-)</p>

<p>Pretty good effort, but try to get more faces, fewer backs.</p>

<p>The lighting looks pretty good. I'm often at ISO 6400 in our home gym (that's why I bought a D700). My biggest challenge for home games is shooting location - I need to shoot from the sidelines or corners, so I need to stop down to get enough DOF with longer lenses. Definitely shoot from the baseline if you can with either a 50mm or 85mm prime. Longer lenses are good for catching defensive action.</p>

<p>(steps on to my soap box)<br>

I first have to start off by saying that this is going to come off rough.</p>

<p>I am so glad you are not in my area!!!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I am a teacher at Dorchester High, and so really just post them up there for the kids to DL.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Its stuff like this that makes it so hard for full time or even part time sports photographers to make a living, and continues to degrade the expectations of customers. With the way things are now days with the side lines littered with people like you that would rather give away their stuff than ask people to pay for things. Things like this have degraded the image of sports photographers and photographers for that matter in my option.</p>

<p>And yes I have heard it before "well if you are any good you don't have anything to worry about". With the exception that there are so many parents that have decided to become weekend photographers and give away thier stuff that parents would rather have a free poor image than a good high quality image that they have to pay for.</p>

<p>Start searching the ads on Craigslist and it won't take you long to find wanabe weekenders. "Professsional Photorgraphers" littering the site offering prices so cheap it is unreal. Image quality that is just horrible.</p>

<p>Sorry, but you won't get any advice from me on settings. I won't help you possibly take business from another sports photographer in your area.<br>

(steps off of my soap box)</p>

<p>Very well lit gym, makes things much easier. The shots look good, I would echo comments to look for more shots with faces. As to giving them away for free, even if you aren't looking to make money for yourself, I would suggest you consider using this as a fundraising effort. Prices don't have to be high, and there are sites like smugmug and others to pick from. Some give schools discounts to memberships as well. Money raised could be used for the athletic departments, or general school use.</p>

<p>I don't disagree with the comment stuff.. but it would be better if you could moderate comments, posting those that are fitting, and deleting those that create problems. On my blog I still get posts from people who are sore losers after a section hockey final in February.. and it's December already.. so I changed it to moderate.<br>

I gave away a few 4x6's right off the bat, with watermarks on photos, and only to the parents I actually knew really well who weren't going to come back asking for handouts or telling others there were freebies. Most of them ended up paying anyway so it worked out well. I haven't really been pushing for sales yet, since I haven't got my set up an account on exposure manager (that I'll most likely use) but definitely going that route instead of the Wal-Mart kiosk route I was originally planning to do cheaply. 25% of anything I do sell goes to the school come the end of the spring seasons. It won't be a huge amount but anything a school can get they appreciate.</p>

<p><img id="myFxSearchImg" src="data:image/png;base64,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%3D" alt="" width="24" height="24" /></p>

<p>@David Dennis<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4161648"><br /> </a> Are you kidding? I teach at a school where some of my students' household annual incomes are as low as $7000 and you think that I should be selling the kids pictures of themselves??<br>

Not to mention, where did you get to thinking that the purpose of photography solely is to make money?<br /> <br /> I didn't take your comments personally, so I trust that neither will you when I tell you this... that isn't a soap box you're standing on, it's a sh*t box!</p>

 

<p>(begins the use of the soap box defense to relieve consequence)<br>

Wait, so I'm still trying to wrap my head around what seems like the most ludicrous position I have ever encountered...<br>

So, your position is that as a teacher, I shouldn't be taking photographs of my students and giving them away because they should be hiring a professional photographer to sell them to them?<br /> <br /> You are decrying the democratization of photography, in essence?<br /> <br /> You know, one of the primary reasons that I seldom post in forums like these is just this... such an anonymous venue allows people like you post things, under the guise of "(on my soap box)" seemingly without consequence.<br>

While you may decry the loss of your elitist photographic existence, I decry the loss of tact. The loss of the awareness that there is a consequence for the things that we say/write, and the loss of the good taste to keep to oneself the sad feelings of fear and bitterness at the loss of exclusivity that accompany "the masses" acquiring the tools that were previously available to only pompous prima donnas like yourself.<br>

But then really... no offense!<br>

(ends the use of the soap box defense to relieve consequence)</p>

<p>I too am a high school teacher. I also give my shots to students that ask. Why? Two reasons. One is that many of our students come from low socio / economic backgrounds and simply couldn't afford to buy photos. Second is that my district says that I may not sell to parents of students that I have or may have. I asked. Some parents have offered to pay me anyway and I courteously thanked them and turned them down. I also let our AD use them for the school's athletics website. Secondly, there are no professional photographers at the events. If there were I would gladly step aside and not interrupt their livelyhood. I do sell the stuff I shoot at college games. Much to the possible surprise of some, the only photographer's on the sideline of the high school events I attend are the school's student yearbook photographers, maybe the local paper and me. Often only me.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>(begins the use of the soap box defense to relieve consequence)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not intended to relieve consequence. I gladly state that as my opinion and I know that there will be many that disagree. And no I don't take offense. Your opinion is yours and that's fine.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So, your position is that as a teacher, I shouldn't be taking photographs of my students and giving them away because they should be hiring a professional photographer to sell them to them?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If you read back through my post I never said anything about you being a teacher or they should have to hire a professional. I was talking about the act of just giving the images away.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I would suggest you consider using this as a fundraising effort.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Now if you were doing a fundraiser that would be great at least your not giving your stuff away. Sell the images for a buck, look into a Smugmug account and then they can download the image or print it themselves, but don't give them away. </p>

<p>I agree with David. Set up an acct at SmuMug or other, and give proceeds back to the school. I can see why a teacher should not be selling at their own school.<br>

You will find many photogs, semi and esp. pros, who adamantly agree with Dennis about giving away images, on this and many other photo sites.We re-invest our earnings to get better equipment so as be able to create better images, along with lots of practice, of course! <br>

Do the $1 sale thing, although absurdly cheap, but it also teaches people that there is some value to this, photographing, and life isn't a free ride.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"...the school's student yearbook photographers..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Someone needs to tell those rotten kids to stop giving their photo's freely to the yearbook. There may be some pro out there who could make a profit on them!</p>

<p>And what's up with some of these hospitals that send home a Polaroid with the parents of newborns? Damned Communist so-and-so's.</p>

<p>Robin -<br>

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I have been criticized as "part of the problem" by giving photos away. At this point in my life, it's much simpler if I can just say "I'm not a pro." I studiously avoid any money for photography, I don't have pro insurance, etc. And my homeowner's insurance paid out five figures on my camera gear after a break-in, and if I had been "sorta" pro, they probably would not have.</p>

<p>Anyway, your Q. I'd shoot the 50/1.8 you already have for a while and see if you want the longer length. Or rent the 85/1.8 or 1.4 from Calumet for maybe $25/day. That will help you calibrate the desirability. The 85/1.8 AFD happens to focus very quickly (internal focus, low driven mass) so it's a great gym rat lens. If you end up with D700, I think you'll want the 85mm.</p>

<p>And to the pros here: a way to look at what Robin is doing is "networking". He/she is establishing "cool teacher" cred and connecting with parents to boot. You should hope that *your* kid's teacher is as connected. Just my soap box. </p>

<p>And Robin, the "sports" forum here is heavy on working pros, as is the wedding forum. You're more likely to encounter "my rice bowl" viewpoints here than on say the Nikon forum. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just noting that the culture varys a little from forum to forum here on p.n.</p>

<p>Robin,<br>

I saw the topic and immediately clicked on it assuming I'd have a lot of advice to share since I also shoot a lot of basketball (junior college). Since I concur with almost every suggestion so far, I'll stick to things that haven't been covered.</p>

<ul>

<li>Some of your vertical pictures (like some of mine) are slanted. Keep this in mind when you are shooting vertical. I have rotated quite a few images in Photoshop to fix this problem.</li>

<li>My biggest problem is focus. I use continuous AF with the center spot. I have to keep that spot on the subject. I have a lot of 5-8 shot sequences where one or two shots are focused on the background.</li>

<li>Since photography is primarily a hobby for me, I don't need to be paid. My rule is that for non-profit organizations, I consider if I would want to donate my time. For profit making organizations, I insist on payment.</li>

</ul>

<p>edited, see below.</p>

<p><img id="myFxSearchImg" src="data:image/png;base64,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%3D" alt="" width="24" height="24" /></p>

<p>One thing we all REALLY need to be careful of when/if giving away pictures.. is when you have players who will have a chance to play their sport in college.. you and/or others can get in trouble doing so. I know there is a fine line in some instances, but since I shoot women's college hockey and that University uses photos for releases at times and will use some in the 09-10 media guide, I could be considered a booster for the college thus making said 'fine line' a little thicker, regardless of the sport. You don't want to get yourself, or the player, or even their high school in trouble for what could be considered a 'comp.'</p>

<p>Just a thought of course, since we have 2 D1 recruits in the high school basketball conference this season.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I guess I'm "part of the problem", too. I take photos of my son's 5th grade travel team and I give free downloads to the other parents. The shots are reasonably good (I've practiced a lot on my older son), so I guess I'm undermining the market. But I don't care because I do not owe anyone else a living. Besides that, I'm giving something to my community that they value, so perhaps I really am be paid.</p>

<p>Robin - I can send you a link to a private SmugMug gallery of images from the last game that I shot. And if you ever play Arlington High, I'll be sure to post free photos for you, too.</p>

<p>Guess I'm part of the problem also. I shoot high school basketball because my daughter played and I made year end videos and gave copies to all the girls. I love the girls and know many of them well, a bunch even call me Mum. I got a lot of joy watching them and wanted to give back. I'm not a professional and I've been learning as I go. I'm grateful to them for putting up with me! One of the guys who takes shots for the papers even gave me a CD with some of his shots to use in the video. They did have his name on them and I gave him credit in the video. I thought that was so nice of him. </p>

<p>Also there is a woman who takes some sports photos to sell to parents, (and for the newspapers) but she never came to girls games, only the boys games and sports her son plays. In basketball the boys and girls had a year end banquet together but she never put anything together for them even to sell.</p>

<p>I would think that professional photographers wouldn't want us hobby parents to be charging. Wouldn't it diminish their abilities and professionalism if anyone could just take photos and get paid? </p>

<p>Another reason I don't charge is the whole business and tax stuff. </p>

<p>Robin, I'm from MA and know Boston. My sister lived in Dorchester before moving to Milton and her husband just retired from teaching at Boston English and I applaud you for doing this for these kids. </p>

<p>Donna</p>

<p>Hey Jim McKinnon,</p>

<p>i'm one of those Rotten kids, and i think there is a few things <strong>YOU</strong> need to understand about public schools (cannot speak for private ones).Well, i live in North Vancouver, B,C , Canada, so things might be a little different here, but anyways...</p>

<p>First of all, the school wouldn't buy our photos, because they have a yearbook class, and part of their mark is taking photos for the yearbook. I'm not in yearbook, i'm in photo, and not only do i let them use my photos, but i want them to.Heres a couple reasons why, all the money made from the year book, goes towards cameras , and other equipment for future students. I don't have my own camera, but get to sign out a d300 with the 18-135mm kit lense, or can request a 50mm 1.8f. (i love that lense, the lenses results are outstanding. although i need to still work alot on my technique ) </p>

<p>I'm getting to use equipment that's worth almost 2000 free of charge, and got to take it out during our 2 week break. So i think a couple pictures in return is a fair deal<strong>, don't you?</strong> I'm going to be getting my own equipment around this time next year, and will gladly continue shooting for free. It's a school, if i could, and did charge, all i would be doing is leaving less funds for other things. </p>

<p>A photographer was asking me about the yearbook, and i told him i would get back to him. I talked to the teacher in charge, and he said he's not interested. He wants <strong>STUDENT work</strong>...The idea of me charging for my photos to me, is like the basketball players charging to play on the team. sure pros do it, but it's different for us students. We are students, the school is teaching us to take photos, how could we even think about charging for it?</p>

<p>Also, just something to note is that we didn't get the money to buy this equipment from the school district, (they have been cutting the budget every year, for the past couple years.), our digital media teachers manage to get donations for other places, and get high discounts on equipment. This year we got a bunch of free flashes (not the ones you mount on cameras, but those big huge ones). I used a portable one that closes like an umbrella, to shoot Santas Breakfast. Bellow is a link to a unedited images. </p>

<p>http://picasaweb.google.com/nima.sahebi/SantaSBreakfast?feat=directlink</p>

<p>It was great, i actually enjoyed taking the pictures, it wasn't something i did, cause i had to. I wanted to do it, and was really happy when i got the opportunity to do it. I made some mistakes, learned a few things, and am looking forward to doing it again next year.</p>

<p>Nima, my apologies that I failed to make my sarcasm clear. I said this totally tongue-in-cheek, as I was hardly able to believe that any professional could make the statements made by a couple of individuals above. I was flabbergasted by the selfish attitude.</p>

<p>I'm on your side, Buddy! Please keep up the good work and remember throughout your life that not everything is about the money.</p>

<p>o, lol... </p>

<p>I feel kinda dumb for not picking up on it, since i'm one of the most sarcastic people myself... But you know, it's the internet, and you see people saying all kind of things..</p>

<p>anyways... thanks... </p>