Helpless: eBay Leica fraud (had been cheated $3300)

<p>I won an auction from US eBay (a Leica MP .85 chrome with a Summicron 50F2), but I had been cheated $3300, and I don't know what else can I do....<br>

Timelines:</p>

 

<p ><strong >Feb 15, 2010: </strong>Won the auction (ebay Item ID: 200438133741)</p>

<p ><strong >Feb 23, 2010: </strong>Remittance(USD3300) to the seller's BOA account (COBE ENTERPRISES LLC)</p>

<p ><strong >Feb 27, 2010: </strong>no response from the seller after this day.</p>

<p ><strong >Mar 2, 2010:</strong> Apply cancellation of money transfer from my Bank</p>

<p ><strong >Mar 3, 2010:</strong> The seller refused to cancel the money transfer, from the information of Bank of America (tel. 800 729 9473/tel. 800 900 9044, case no. 456101MAR10)</p>

<p ><strong >Mar 8, 2010:</strong> My bank's representative (Mr Kwok, 21989021) called me that the seller refused to cancel.</p>

<p ><br /></p>

<p>I did report to eBay but they said I used an unacceptable payment method (bank payment) so they can't help me. I am a Leica lover so I often bid at Germany eBay too, so I am comfortable to use bank payment (most Germany eBay seller prefer bank payment)<br>

I reported to local police also (Report no. MK RN 10012876),but they also said that what they can do is little.<br>

I also opened a case at IC3 (Complaint Id: I1003020504414361) but no response. <br>

I would like to warn Leica lovers, if the seller asked you to pay to his bank account that the account name is COBE ENTERPRISES LLC or Kyle Satiam Khadar...Please don't do so and report to police...<br>

Please help and anyone can give me some suggestions what should I do now?.....</p>

<p ></p>

<p> </p>

<p>Sorry to hear about this.<br>

I don't know much about the laws governing buying and selling in the US, but it may be worth posting your experience on rangefinderforum.com as in the past I've seen posts there in a similar vein which have got very good advice and help on how to proceed.<br>

I hope the moderator here accepts the spirit in which this is being posted, and doesn't start foaming at the mouth at the mention of a different forum.<br>

Hope you get it resolved.</p>

<p>John</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Sorry to hear of your troubles. Most common advice given in recent years for internet buyers has stressed not remitting to bank accounts or wire transfers because you lose protection via approved payment methods. I'm curious also, did you check the seller's ratings and comments before entrusting your money to him - I've found due diligence pays big dividends. Hopefully you will eventually get some relief.</p>

<p>It will be useful to warn others not to use unsanctioned payment methods as well.</p>

<p>John, foaming at the mouth? Wow.</p>

<p>Joseph, I am sorry to hear of your nasty experience on EBay. All I can do is give you and others the benefit of my experience. You should only pay for items on E-Bay using PayPal. ONLY PAYPAL. If you had used PayPal, you would not only be protected, but PayPal would not have released payment to this seller<em><strong> UNTIL you had received the camera and lens. </strong></em>I hope that the matter gets resolved properly for you. Good Luck.</p>

<p>Sorry about your troubles. I can relate having experienced a similar thing - and ebay wasn't helpful in my case either. I was as surprised as you are to learn how unsafe using a money order for payment is and that ebay considers them unacceptable methods of payment. That is despite the fact that they list them as a payment option on their site. When questioned, it turned out that they have to since they cannot only offer paypal on account that they own it! I will never in my life use a money order for payment again - despite statements to the contrary they are essentially untraceable and the same as cash.<br /> <br /> I also learned that involving the justice system is rather futile - even if the perpetrator is found, tried and certainly found guilty, you still have no means to actually get your money back - but will have spent thousands more in in the process of trying to retrieve it. At least you will have the satisfaction that the perpetrator was prosecuted though - which is why you should not only report it to the police but to the FBI. I made the rather sad experience learning that the US privacy laws protect the perpetrator better than the fraud victim. In my case, I gave up since I didn't want to throw good money after bad.<br>

<br /> I learned from my experience that using your credit card through paypal is the only means to protect yourself - I won't use e-check and certainly not a direct bank transfer. This gives you a second chance to contest a payment through the credit card provider - paypal will only allow you to open a case once and if it is closed, you can re-open or contest.<br>

<br /> e-bay's lack of action in buyer protection also means that I will no longer deal with buyers or sellers that don't accept paypal or want the transaction handled any other way.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>PayPal would not have released payment to this seller<em><strong> UNTIL you had received the camera and lens. </strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is news to me. Whenever I've sold something on eBay the money has been transferred to my Paypal account as soon as payment was made and I've been able to transfer the money to my bank account.<strong><em> </em><em></em></strong><em><strong><br /></strong></em></p>

<blockquote>

<p>John, foaming at the mouth? Wow.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>John,</p>

<p>It may seem a bit dramatic, but I'm a member of a number of forums both photography related and others, and in some the very mention of a different forum has caused my post to be deleted, abuse hurled at me etc. etc. Hence my cautious approach!</p>

<p>Pleased to say though that it seems a lot more civil round here than it used to be some time back.</p>

<p>John</p>

<p> </p>

<p>This is another example, one people should take seriously, that it is never a good idea to pay by direct bank transfer.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I am a Leica lover so I often bid at Germany eBay too, so I am comfortable to use bank payment (most Germany eBay seller prefer bank payment)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Although bank payments are common at eBay Germany (and specific other European eBay sites), that does not make this method of payment any less risky. In the case of Germany and German sellers/bank accounts, it is relatively easy to initiate a police investigation of a fraud transaction (cases can even be filed online nowadays) and drag a seller to court, but as others have already noted above, actually getting your money back is an entirely different matter.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>PayPal would not have released payment to this seller<em><strong> UNTIL you had received the camera and lens. </strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>News to me as well - to the best of my knowledge paypal does not provide escrow service. And many "escrow services" out there will disappear with both - the money and the merchandise. Or work together with either the buyer or the seller and defrauding the other.<br /> <em><strong><br /></strong></em></p>

Ditto what Dieter said. You're on your own.

You know who he is and where he is, start from there. Google his name, write a letter to the local newspaper, contact the

media, leave feedback, google Internet fraud and contact the authorities-- you'll feel better, have told the world in

perpetuity about this guy, and for 3300 he will live on in infamy and his reputation will be dirt-- but he'll most likely still

have your money. Sorry. I've been jerked around on the Internet a couple of times now: $95,000 usd once and $2200 usd

another.

<p>Hitler finds out he should have not made a deal outside of Ebay... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDtoZzIOTw&feature=related</p>

<p>This isn't to make light of Joseph's situation but to reinforcement the message to be careful with internet auctions.</p>

<p>Re: what Jordan said. <strong> DON'T DO IT.</strong> Even mentioning his name in this forum can already get you in trouble. You actually only know who he pretends to be and under which name he operated on ebay; but the actual perpetrator might be an entirely different person, an imposter. For example, he could have hijacked an account on ebay and you'd be then smearing the name of an innocent person - with the potential of a lawsuit against you.<br>

Let the authorities deal with the criminal investigation - your only concern should be deciding whether or not to take legal action - which if you and he are both in the US will already be complicated and costly enough - and nigh impossible if you reside in different countries.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Sorry to hear your that Joseph. I used to sell a rather expensive lenses through ebay.co.uk and I was surprised at the trust of German buyers using bank transfer many times. Being an honest seller it was all the same for me, plus I saved on Paypal fees. As a buyer I saved myself from rouge sellers several times since Paypal is very good at this if you pursue your rights through Paypal Buyer Protection.</p>

<p>Moreover, I was cheated as a seller, too! I sold an item and received the payment from USA through Paypal. Then the next day after sending the item, Paypal reversed the payment. Apparently, a stolen credit card number was used and the credit card company rejected payment. Fortunately I sent the item using a fully trackable service and Paypal Seller Protection scheme refunded my loss within 3 weeks.</p>

<p>So, my advice, as a seller and buyer: if you read/follow Paypal's rules on seller/buyer protection schemes carefully, and if you make sure your sale/purchase is covered, then you are pretty safe even for overseas sales/purchases. If your purchase or sale is not covered (this is indicated both on item pages and on Paypal payment received email), then you are definitely taking a risk.</p>

<p>Good luck, and sorry again.</p>

<p>K.</p>

<p>Hitler finds out he should have not made a deal outside of Ebay... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDtoZzIOTw&feature=related</p>

<p>This isn't to make light of Joseph's situation but to reinforcement the message to be careful with internet auctions.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>PayPal would not have released payment to this seller<em><strong> UNTIL you had received the camera and lens. </strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is true. I'm not sure what the cash amount is, but I've had transactions as little as $700 placed on hold until the buyer leaves positive feedback on eBay. I've sold dozens of high-end pieces, and it's always the same. I have no neutral or negative feedback, I have a professional paypal account, and I have paypal verified addresses, bank accounts, and credit cards. When it's $3300 they certainly will hold the funds in escrow.<em><strong><br /></strong></em></p>

<p>Thank you for all responses really, I will read all asap. I am a newbie here, but all of you are so kinds and reply this thread. <br>

Actually I felt weird when the US seller asked me to use bank payment, but I did think that maybe he tried to save PayPal fee, that most of the European eBay sellers do.<br>

I am so careless and too easy to trust him. After I wired my money to his bank account, the bank manager of BOA did doubt that it may be a fraud (maybe he did similar internet crime before?) and held the money few days before sent to his bank account.<br>

But...I used DC to take him a picture of the remittance receipt and then emailed to him, then he got my money successfully and disappeared.<br>

Now, I gave up to get back my money already, but I want to alert any Leica lovers here, be careful of this guy...this scum does has some knowledge about Leica and he can pretended very well that the deal is legit and he can be trusted. <br>

I got all of his eBay registered addresses, phones, names, and IP addresses etc (by some methods...) I am just wondering how can I use such informations to catch that guy...</p>

<p>Ed, that's the first time I hear about this - and I cannot find a single reference to it on the paypal site. Do you have a Business account - mine is a Premier and also verified?</p>

<p>Did a little digging and this might be what you are referring to - from the Paypal User Agreement</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>10.6 eBay Item Hold.</strong> PayPal, in its sole discretion, may place a hold on a payment you receive for an eBay transaction when PayPal believes there may be a high level of risk associated with the transaction. If PayPal places a hold on your payment, it will show as "pending" in your PayPal Account.</p>

 

<ol type="a">

<li>

<p>Release of eBay item hold. PayPal will release the eBay item hold after 21 days unless you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the hold. PayPal may release the hold earlier if either of the following applies:</p>

</li>

<li>The buyer leaves positive feedback on eBay, or (ii) PayPal can confirm delivery. PayPal will confirm delivery if you use USPS, UPS or FedEx to ship the item and (i) use PayPal shipping labels, or (ii) upload tracking information to PayPal via the transaction details page. This applies to US domestic transactions only.</li>

<li>

<p>Additional hold period. If you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the eBay item hold, PayPal may hold the payment in your Account until the matter is resolved pursuant to this Agreement.</p>

</li>

</ol></blockquote>

<p>I think the key here are the words "may" and "at paypal's own discretion" which indicate that this is NOT a standard procedure that is applied all the time .<br>

I have dealt a sold and purchased a lot on ebay and can't recall that I ever had a payment put on hold.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I got all of his eBay registered addresses, phones, names, and IP addresses etc (by some methods...) I am just wondering how can I use such informations to catch that guy...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>By giving the info to the FBI - you yourself wont be able to do much with it. The phone numbers are likely wrong or belong to some innocent person (they did in my case). IP providers won't give you any info on the person behind an IP address. Names are likely wrong or again belong to some innocent person.<br>

<br /> Unless that person used a false credit card and/or identity when opening his ebay account (assuming it is his to begin with), ebay knows who he is and the FBI can get the info about the SSN associated with the credit card used (you can't).<br>

Similarly, and probably the best chance is through the bank account you transferred the money too.</p>

<p>You have the guy's adress. Go to a lawer, have him write a letter to him to send you the camera. If he does not respond, sue him. That's what lawers are for and if you and he live in a country with a working justice, eventually you wil lbe fine.<br>

Paypal solves a problem that in Germany does not exist. The whole economic system works on bank payments and a certain level of trust and common sense. In countries where that is missing, other payment services might be necessary.</p>

<p><strong>I would like to post some replies:</strong><strong> </strong><strong> </strong><br>

<strong><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1562370">Stephen Lewis</a> </strong><strong> </strong>He got more than 40 positive feedbacks...<br>

<strong><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1573862">Keith Harris</a> </strong><strong> </strong>Yes, PayPal only from now on for US eBay sellers<strong>...</strong><br>

<strong><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=323291">Dieter Schaefer</a> </strong>You did say what I want to say and the contradiction of eBay policy. <br>

I always wondering why they (eBay, Bank, police...etc) can't co-opt each others for Justice. The bank manager did meet the seller by person; eBay does know the personal information of the seller (and recorded all his IP addresses) etc. <br>

<strong><strong>John Lawrence </strong></strong>I do<strong><strong> hope this post will not be deleted...as a Victim, I am so helpless and really want to get some opinions/suggestions.</strong></strong><br>

<strong>Guido H </strong>As a Leica lovers, I do feel eBay Germany just likes a treasure. You can get some rare/cheaper Leica gears often. But hell yes, it is risky to use bank payment...<br>

<strong>Jordan G</strong>. Thanks for your solid answer. I am going to do it. You've been jerked around on the Internet a couple of times? Can you share more?<br>

<strong><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=323291">Dieter Schaefer</a> (for your 2nd reply) </strong>Now the problem is the authorities will not deal with the criminal investigation...</p>

 

<p>That's were throwing good money after bad comes in - even if you sue the right person (and chances are you don't), you will have no problem getting a verdict in your favor but that doesn't mean you will actually ever see your money. Then again, you might. Note that if he and you don't live in the same state, you have to sue in his home state - and will likely have to appear there in court. So add the cost for travel etc to your claim. And unless you have some sort of legal insurance or a lawyer that won't charge you; add those fees as well. Depending on circumstances, you might have to spend some $5K-$10K to retrieve (hopefully) either your money or the camera (if it even exists).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Now the problem is the authorities will not deal with the criminal investigation...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There is a online site to report internet crime which I believe is from the FBI. They will investigate but they won't retrieve your money - for which you will have to start a private lawsuit. But at least you will then definitely know whom to sue - which currently there is a fairly high probability that you don't.</p>

<p><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=323291">Dieter Schaefer</a> yes, if the FBI can help me...<br>

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=3893844">Michael Alger</a> It is too expensive to sue him just for $3300...<br /><br>

<br /></p>

<p><em>The whole economic system works on bank payments and a certain level of trust and common sense.</em></p>

<p>That's funny, the German's I work with laughed quite hardily at that statement. Trust and common sense will get you very little in this day and age. "Trust me, I won't steal your money!" Use only approved Ebay payment methods. Worldwide. It really is the only way to protect yourself. Money orders and checks are NOT approved methods, haven't been for at least a year. It's down to pretty much Paypal, Bidpay, and maybe one or two others I can't remember.</p>