Help me, Wisner don't send my camera.

Hello,

 

I'm Korean largeformat user.

I ordered 16x20camera from Wisner 2002 April.

and I paid all of charge. but Wisner don't send my camera yet.

He broke appointment many time.

How can I do?

Please recommand my E-mail.

 

Thank you.

 

pphile@dreamwiz.com

pphile@hanmail.net

leebyungchang@hotmail.com

Good luck! Add yourself to a long list of people unhappy with Wisner delivery times. Boy am I glad I read all the problems with Wisner before I bought my LF camera. I almost plunked my money down too. But instead of waiting 1 year plus for my camera I have been out taking pics and enjoying the one I have. I don't think the APX 100 I load into it knows the difference between a Wisner and the one I'm using ha ha.

Ron is making an atempt to correct what has been a not so good customer image. I know he replied to my last email questions about cut film holders within a day. Remember that the 16x20 and other ULF cameras, are only produced on a limited basis. Meaning when there are enough orders to make a run of cameras. I would try to email him again to find out the status of your order.

 

George Losse

happy wisner 8x10 and 8x20 camera owner

You'll get it eventually. Your options are: 1) wait for it as patiently as possible, or 2) cancel your order and buy something else.

I'd suggest that Ron unapologetically follow the precedent established by some custom gunsmiths. When a customer orders a highly specialized piece he pays in full in advance and is told the gun will be ready in 2 or 3 years, whatever the gunmaker believes is appropriate for the job. I expect makers of fine wooden stringed instruments such as guitars, violins, etc., follow the same policy - hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the waiting time for a custom violin was closer to 5 years.

 

What could be more specialized than an ULF camera? Is this something you'd want the construction of rushed? Just tell folks up front the build time is 2-3 years.

 

Just my two cents.

Wisner should sell his company to someone who actually is a business person and go back to doing what he does best. Building cameras. It appears his company lives hand to mouth and the people who complain the most get services first, rather than following some sort of production schedule. This of course is all perception based on anecdotal information.

If you look at the archives on this subject, it is lengthy for a reason. While I continue to tell folks that using an intermediary such as Quality Camera is the same cost as dealing with Ron himself and 1)full payment is not expected until delivery is made, 2) you have someone checking the quality before the camera arrives to your door and 3) Quality Camera has significantly more market power than an individual purchases in the number of units that they move people continue to go down this road. At this stage of the game you have little recourse. Either you decide to pull the order and request your money back or you keep paying the phone charges until the camera arrives. Sooner or later, someone that practices law stateside is going to be in Mr. Lees situation and he (or she) will settle this terrible customer service trend in the courts.

 

As a sidebar, I went through Quality Camera for a 12x20 back for my Wisner 11x14 and it arrived in three months time from the date when I placed the order without any flaws. Not one year or two years as some have said is "reasonable". Jeff Wheeler at Quality Camera was on Ron like a cheap suit at about the 30 days from promised date while I (fortunately) did not pick up the phone once. Customer service like that is fabulous. For those of you that are reading this and contemplating a Wisner purchase, I cannot stress this point strongly enough - USE AN INTERMEDIARY IN THE TRANSACTION!

 

The alternative is to get your Valium prescription renewed at your next physical. Cheers!

Another point to add to this post. We as the large format community are to blame for the situation with less than satisfactory customer service from Wisner. While in Sante Fe I overheard Ron say that he picked up 10 camera orders with deposits in one day of the show.

 

As long as the bucks keep rolling in, why should he concern himself with customer service. Realistically, these activities send the message to Ron that each dissatisfied consumer is being offset in short order by two or three Generation X types with big pockets and no expectations as to a delivery date. Ain't life great? Where is the downside and the subsequent accountability? Floating in the bottom of his martini glass while toasting to business success.

 

In any other business it would be yesterdays news.

 

Without the fear of failure, the piss poor status quo will continue to dominate this specific business venue. How long will this trend continue? It all depends upon your reference point, but even one dissatisfied customer while I run my business is tantamount to the beginning of the end.

I suggest the best way to deal with the Wisner's of the world is to get a contract with them in place similar to a home builders contract. Specific dates are targetted, money is only advanced when these targets are met and specific remedies are spelled out for nonperformance.

 

If Wisner started to jack me around like others we have heard of I would be on his doorstep within 48 hours. The matter would be resolved, period, one way or the other.

 

I have an extremely low tolerance for those that don't live up to their promises without legitimate reason.

Hold on one minute. We have been in contact with Mr. Lee and his sister in Athens GA numerous times this summer. Mr Lee requested that the camera be delivered to GA while he is there visiting. I talked to his sister as recently as this week to give them an update. They were informed that we were projecting a Saturday delivery, which as you all know is tomorrow. In the event that there are last minute QC issues, we even have arranged to make a courier delivery on Monday so that Mr. Lee has his camera before he returns to Korea.

We have been working diligently to meet or exceed our deadlines, as many of you right here on this string know from personal experience. We have also informed our customers that if they are not interested in waiting, that perhaps they should reconsider. At any given time we have 80 to 100 cameras on order. We give every single order the attention they are deserve. If Mr. Lee wants to cancel his order, there are four customers behind him waiting for 16x20 cameras.

In closing, I invite thoughtful and fairminded crticism from anyone. And I listen.

 

Best regards,

Ron Wisner

Where's there's smoke there's fire Ron. We never hear about these kinds of problems with respect to other custom LF camera manufacturers.

 

I suppose all these problems are just fiction and it's a conspiracy by one of your competitors to tarnish your reputation and put you out of business. Your explainations are always 180 degrees from what the people complaining are saying so I guess this theory could have some validity. But like they say there is always two sides to the story and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

 

All I can say is you have one heck of a up hill battle when it comes to redeeming your reputation, at least on this forum.

 

I wish you luck.

I forwarded this link to Mr. Wisner and as you can see from the above post, he replied within the hour.

 

Looks like he's going out of his way to make every effort and trying to keep every 'custom' order as perfect as possible.

 

Let us know how you like your new camera Mr. Lee..

Well Mr. Lee what do you have to say in response to Mr. Wisner? In all fairness you should respond.

The problem isn't the length of time by itself. If Mr. Lee or anyone else had been told that the delivery date would be August, 2003, or even if he had been told the delivery date was uncertain, he would have no cause for complaint. The probelm here and with so many of the other similar messages is that full payment is made up front on the basis of a specific promised delivery date (apparently April of 2002 in this case) and then the actual delivery date is much, much later with many promised intervening dates also being missed (I'm assuming that's what Mr. Lee meant by "he broke appointment many time"). I know nothing about the large format camera business but it must be possible to give more realistic estimates of delivery dates than Mr. Wisner seems to give. If that isn't possible then no estimate should be made, the customer should just be told (as Dick Phillips told me when I asked about buying an 8x10 camera) that the delivery date can't be estimated with any certainty. Some customers will probably be lost that way but I'd bet the number would be far fewer than the customers lost as a result of so many experiences like Mr. Lee's being posted here. Personally the only way I would buy a Wisner camera would be from a dealer who has the camera in stock.

I will not put words in Mr. Lee's mouth, but in fairness to Mr. Lee, the camera has taken a long time. Mr. Rose points out that where there is smoke there is fire. The fire is and will always be our time. That's just the way it is. If I make anyone unhappy, it is always about how long it takes to get a camera. We have made the mistake in the past of rushing orders and of promising orders faster then we could do them. We simply will not do that.

I am saying this as clearly as I can. If you want a camera from us, we will make the best possible camera we can for you. We will tell you it will take months to fulfill, unless we have promised otherwise (this summer we delivered a 4x5 camera to a customers who had already booked a trip to Greece. His camera was stolen just before the trip. We delivered in one week).

Mr. Lee will have his camera no later than Monday. Yes, I know Monday is Labor Day. Our courier will get it there for less than it would cost to ship to Korea. We knew Mr. Lee had a deadline and we planned accordingly. I would do the same for any of my customers and have. This is why at least half of our new orders come from current Wisner camera owners. Some go through dealers (which I encourage), many come to us directly.

 

Best regards,

Ron Wisner

We will have to wait till Monday to see if Mr. Lee gets his camera as promised by Mr. Wisner. As it stands, it is just another promise and I bet Mr. Lee has had enough of them. It is easy for Mr. Wisner to redeem his reputation: deliver Mr. Lee's camera with NO QC problems. You have had eighteen months to work on it.

 

I am sure we will hear from Mr. Lee in due course of time when Mr. Wisner fulfills his end of the contract.

 

Given Mr. Wisner's reply, I think I will park my dollars with Dr. Philips or Mr. Canham.

Upon reviewing the history of Mr. Lee's order I find some facts which give a clearer picture. Mr. Lee originally placed his order for a 12x20 camera on April 1st 2002. We were ready to deliver in December when he changed his order to a 16x20. We accepted his order and sold his 12x20 to the next 12x20 customer.

I note that despite my calls to his sister last week and early this week to keep him informed (we have people on vacation througout August and it was having an effect on our schedule), he has yet to return either call. At this time I still don't know if he has recieved his messages, allthough me must have spoken to his sister if he knew the camera had yet to arrive.

 

Ron Wisner

"Given Mr. Wisner's reply, I think I will park my dollars with Dr. Philips or Mr. Canham.

 

-- SpongeBob SquarePants , August 29, 2003; 04:10 P.M. Eastern"

 

*****

 

Do they sell to cartoon characters? Would you pay in real money or clams?

There really is no excuse to be taking so long to build a camera. It's not a space shuttle, for Christ's sake. I also am in the business of handmaking expensive toys (titanium bicycles, in this case), that customers demand to be within very tight tolerance and if I took half as long to produce I'd be out of business within a year.

 

I would heartily encourage anyone in the market for LF cameras to investigate Walker or Canham. Both are craftsmen that turn out excellent products (much nicer than any Wisner I've used) and have customer service a lot more figured out.

>hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the waiting time for a custom violin was closer to 5 years.

 

Sorry Lex--my brother-in-law had a custom violin made (he is 6' 5") and it took three months. An absolutely gorgeous piece of woodwork...

 

Jon

I think it's a good thing that people be told about quality and service issues. And, the

point that there is two sides to every story should also be taken into account.

<p>

That said, it seems to me that quality control and delivery issues aren't entirely

unknown with Mr. Wisner's products, as evidenced by some of the comments posted

thus far.

<p>

As a marketing person, if I were in Mr. Wisner's shoes, I would have accepted the

responsibility for the problem and ensured that the camera be delivered to Mr. Lee

with an apology for the delay TODAY, if not yesterday!. I certainly wouldn't be trying

to displace blame by going back into my files and dragging up details such as a

change in format size, or communications problems with Mr. Lee and his sister.

Accept the fact that a posting such as this should NEVER have come up in the first

place....and what's even worse for Wisner Cameras is the fact that other folks have

experienced the same problems in the past. This is simply bad strategy on your part,

Mr. Wisner. Most people would say that, "You have a marketing and PR nightmare on

your hands!"

<p>

Furthermore, Mr. Wisner, IMHO I don't think anyone should be asking for payment up

front (especially for periods of delay as long as would seem to be the case with regard

to your cameras). There is something called the time value of the dollar and I'll bet

you don't take this into account when you "cost" out the camera at the time of the

initial sale. For refunds, I also suspect you don't refund payments with interest either.

How fair is this? And, why is it that people are asked to do this in the first place? A

small deposit? Sure, that's fair enough... but the whole payment? I certainly wouldn't

do it.

<p>

As for you purchasers.... what are you? Crazy? Just think, you've paid all that money

down onto an item that may not be received for 6 months, a year, or maybe 3 years

henceforth. So, what happens if the company goes bankrupt? Or, the company is sold

but the buyer chooses not to honor the committments of the seller? What do you do

then? Use your brain... it's NOT rocket science! Go through a reputable seller. As one

poster said, these folks have clout behind them because they're buying in larger

quantities.

<p>

If it were me looking for a new LF camera such as a 12x20.... I don't think I'd be lining

up behind Mr. Lee to buy a Wisner (as fine a camera as it may be.) Afterall, there are

probably other equally well-made cameras available. Keep in mind that the market

place will eventually determine the survivorship of a business that gives less than

acceptable quality and service!

<p>

Just my two-bits worth.

<p>

Good luck Mr. Lee...I hope you get your camera!

"If Mr. Lee wants to cancel his order, there are four customers behind him waiting for 16x20 cameras. In closing, I invite thoughtful and fairminded crticism from anyone. And I listen."

 

What a crock! Criticism? Why did this post get to this point? And this is not the first time this subject has come up. Rule number 1 in business is to never gloat to a customer as the hand that feeds you today will be the hand that drives the nail into your coffin in the future. For a reference point, I have never heard a bad comment, a negative reference or anything but praise on any forum concerning Dick Phillips or Keith Canham because they really GET IT and put their words to action. Lip service is cheap and any problem no matter how small should be resolved way before it escalates into a complaint.

 

Anyone that complains on this subject in a public forum such as this after agreeing to pay the full price for a camera up front given the track record of Wisner should have their heads examined. While we feel sorry for your situation, there are alternatives that do not carry all of this baggage and still hold the film plane and the lens in the correct position for you to make a spectacular photograph.

Just as a matter of curiosity to this ULF Luddite -- is there anyone else who makes 16x20 cameras? Or does Wisner have the only show in town?

Lotus Camera of Austria makes fine cameras up to 20x24, It appears that they do not make a 16x20, but by George they have several sizes in the size arena that look equally as rewarding. Great reputation and quality.

FWIW

 

I ordered a Shen Hao 8 x 10 on July 10th, (2003!)paid 60 $ US down, then picked it up on Aug 9th,(2003) the day they said it would be ready, working great. Custom made for me with my name on the plate on the front.

 

Granted an 8x10 is a bit simpler but still.....What do they know?