Help? I shot my first wedding and I'm being threatened?

Discussion in 'Wedding and Event' started by david_ross|13, Jun 12, 2012.

  1. Hello everyone. I need your advice and help. I shot my very first wedding and I made a ton of mistakes. I had "friends" who wanted to use me and I said I had never shot a wedding before. What I guaranteed were 10 fully edited (LR, Photoshop) photos an hour. I would not give them poor quality photos and they agreed to my conditions. I charged them $1200 total. Being that I did not have a DSLR, I spent the money renting a Nikon D800, SB900, and lenses. I wanted to create a contract but they did not want a contract. They would only pay cash. This should have been a red flag for me and I should've backed out. I did receive all of my money but here is what happened. Instead of 10 fully edited photos per hour, I was surprised that I was able to get 20 fully edited photos per hour. Other than this there are a lot of junk photos. Just 6 weeks after the wedding, the groom tonight threatened me. He is demanding every single shot that I took. I do not want to give him the poor quality photos. What should I do. Yes, I know I blew it on many levels but what do I do now. What do the pros agree to when shooting weddings? Do you provide the bride and groom with every single photograph that you shot. I was told not to do this as these photos could come back to haunt me.
  2. because people own a DSLR...they claim to be Pros.
    even worst... you rented one! and charged more money that the "mom with a DSLR wedding"....
    Good Luck !
  3. I never claimed to be a pro. They knew very well my position. I was up front with everything.
  4. He's threatening you in what way, exactly?
  5. David, you weren't clear about whether you've delivered the photos yet.
    I think you have fulfilled your contractual obligations if you have delivered the 10 (or more) fully edited photos per hour. I don't think the groom is entitled to alter the terms of your agreement after the fact.
  6. Zane, I was approached at my job and threatened physically. I too don't think he is entitled to any more photos than our agreement but he is so pissed and abusive, I think I should just send him all of the photos and call it a day. There was no physical contract, only a verbal contract. I want to know what other photographers who are professional (unlike myself) would do in this situation.
  7. David:
    a) Had you agreed to give them every shot, or had this not come up in conversation? My guess is that the reason behind their request for all your shots is that they probably have completely lost confidence in your photographic skills and they may think that there are some gems hidden among your rejects that someone more skilled in post processing could "save". From that POV, their request is not as unreasonable as it might first appear.
    b) In what way did the groom threaten you? physically? to sue you? bad-mouth you on Internet forums? etc.?
    c) How much of the $1200 went towards equipment rentals? Do the B&G realize that equipment rental costs $$$?
    d) To defuse the situation and extricate yourself from this mess, would you consider returning all of their money that didn't go to out-of-pocket expenses and just give them all your images?? IMHO, at this point, you have little to lose.
    e) I'm sure you now realize this and don't need to have it rubbed in your face, but I am utterly flabbergasted that anyone could be so naive that they would assume they could rent a camera as complicated as a d700 and immediately get good pix out of it. I've owned two d700s since they first were introduced, use them for lots of event work, and I'm still learning how to best use them.
    The best of luck,
    Tom M
  8. Yes you made a ton of mistakes and you know that now. We'll leave that alone but it certainly is a message to all.
    I assume you delivered all the photos you feel were 'good' and omitted the bad shots? If that is so, you've done your job. No one delivers the out of focus, poorly lit or mistake shots. No one. If he physically threatened you, do you have a witness? If so, take some of that $1200 and have a lawyer send him a letter that you will seek a restraining order if he contacts you ever again for any reason.
    Soon as you have the letter sent out, go back to your day job.....
  9. Help? I shot my first wedding and I'm being threatened?​
    Statements or questions?
    If so, take some of that $1200 and have a lawyer send him a letter that you will seek a restraining order if he contacts you ever again for any reason.​

    I wouldn't bother wasting any money on a lawyer. Just send a letter stating that you have taken legal advice and you will be persuing a restraining order if he continues harassing you. I think 'contacting you for any reason' is going a bit too far.
  10. " If he physically threatened you....have a lawyer send him a letter..."
    Peter, the police will do that for free.
  11. Hi Tom,
    Thank you so much for your advice and questions. I will attempt to answer them the best I can.
    a) No, I had not agreed to give them every shot. It was very clear that they would only get the edited photos. Furthermore, they canceled the pre-wedding shoot and they did not give me any time during their wedding ceremony. In fact, the groom asked me to park his car when they pulled up to the venue and then when I got back inside the venue, the wedding already started. After the initial ceremony, the B&G elected to visit with friends and family rather than to take photos. I was basically an auxillary part of the wedding. With that said, I still got some terrific photos. Your point about hidden gems is well taken.
    b) The groom came into my place of employment and threatened me physically. I am a bartender in a restaurant.
    c) $1100 went to the cost of camera equipment for two weeks. I spent another $500 taking one on one lessons from a pro for two days with this equipment. I rented a Nikon D800, 70-200mm lens, 50mm 1.4g lens, SB900 speedlight, and other ancillary equipment. I told the B&G that I needed the $1200 up front to pay for this rental equipment. I would not agree to the wedding unless this was done. On the day of the wedding I received the last payment. I also custom designed their CD folio and spent more money for the folio (cover and back shown here). I also have my own printer (Epson R3000) and have spent the last few weeks making sure the printed quality equals that of the photos on my monitor. The paper and ink has cost a fortune. When all is said and done, I spent another $1000 on top of the camera rental equipment. The B&G do not care what my expenses were. That was made clear tonight.
    d) I do not have any money to give back. The money was used on the equipment and other expenses.
    e) Thank you for not rubbing it in my face and for being respectful. No, I was not naive enough to think I could get great pics from it but I did a fairly good job considering. I even shot in full manual mode. The venue, a restaurant, was yellow with yellow light. The grooms face was red and I had to mask off his face in every photo in Photoshop and desaturate his face. I have also since learned that the 50mm 1.4g is soft at its widest apertures.
  12. Do you provide the bride and groom with every single photograph that you shot.​

    I shoot around 800 - 1,000 images at each wedding and out off these would discard around a dozen shots for one reason or another. The remaining images are all edited in Lightroom and a few dozen of the better images are copied and edited in Photoshop for a range off different effects.
    If you can only offer your clients 20 images from each hour of shooting, then seriously you should never have agreed to do this in the first place. $1,200 for what - approximately 100 - 160 images (working on 5 - 8 hours).

    Tom is spot on when he says that
    be so naive that they would assume they could rent a camera as complicated as a d700 and immediately get good pix out of it.​
    Ok it was a D800. Which is probably even worse. All that said though the couple are just as much to blame for hiring you when they knew that you had very limited experience.

    I shot a wedding earlier this year where one of the Bridesmaids approached me and asked if I could have a look at her wedding images that one of their friends had taking. She sent me the images and we agreed on a price. I am now editing images that are shot on a reasonable camera by someone that obviously had no idea on how to use it. Images shot at 1/20sec and others that are shot at ISO3200. The only thing in their favour was thankfully the so called photographer shot all the images in RAW. I suspect that was the setting when he was handed the camera from whoever he borrowed it off.

    I agree with Michael, if he physically threatens you then contact the police especially if he entered your work place, you would have witnesses.

    Good luck.
  13. Thanks John for your input. Yes, I told them that I never shot a wedding before and I was going to use a camera that I never used before. I warned them and that it why I set my guaranteed output so low, at 10 images an hour. They agreed to these conditions. I was fortunate to get 20 images an hour. Just to satiate the groom, I'm thinking about just giving them all of the photos, even the blurry and out of focus ones, just to get them off my back. Then I wonder if he will sue me for bad photos?
  14. David, I love your CD cover excellent work. Proves that you so have some skills.
    The fact that the groom asked you to park his car is crazy what are these people on... I would remove any image that is out of focus or have any motion Blur in them. Edit the rest the best you can, sometimes editing / cropping a picture can create a great image out of something that was going to be rejected on first glance. I would then give them these images and say you don't want any further contact with them. Have them sign something as well to free you from any further action they may take against you.
  15. Hi John,
    Thank you for the compliments on the cover. I sent them 30 edited photos for the cover and they were not happy with any of them. Not even this one. I can not go back and spend hundreds of hours editing more photos, especially after they spurned any photographic opportunities that I presented to them. They even asked me to photoshop two different photos together for the cover. They did not pay me enough for this and it was not included in our agreement. Here is the thing though. He threatened me physically. If I remove a burry or out of focus photograph, he will still be upset. If I don't remove the photograph, he can use it against me.
  16. It is unfortunate that you have already supplied images. I go through my images and flag any rejects then renumber the remaining images so that they are no gaps from any image that I have removed. The client is then non the wiser that any image has been removed.
    It appears that your clients are being unreasonable. You might need to get a third party involved to mediate between both parties. This will at least give you a witness of what happens from now on.
    Depending on how serious he threatened you physically, might give you some leverage that you will lodge charges against him if he doesn't accept what you have done to date.
    Good luck.
  17. "He threatened me physically. If I remove a burry or out of focus photograph, he will still be upset. If I don't remove the photograph, he can use it against me."
    David, you seem quite intimidated by the groom; I don't blame you since most of us are used to others behaving in a more civil manner, but you are on good legal ground since you've fulfilled your end of the bargain as they have.

    I see two choices - give him what he wants in the hopes that he'll go away, or assert your rights and ignore him. The law will be on your side either way. However, the police will not get involved if the matter is contained to a civil dispute, but it becomes their duty to protect you if it escalates to physical threat.
  18. Hi David -
    Thank you for answering my questions. In the interim, it looks like a lot of folks have already responded to the points I made and your answers, so about the only thing I would add is that I agree completely with everyone who suggested not giving back any out-of-pocket expenses and not giving the clients any OOF or otherwise botched shots.
    BTW, your CD cover is beautiful. I'm really glad you posted it. It gives us all a point of reference in that we now know that we are not talking to some clueless newbie in photography. If you can produce something like that, I think you are being vastly too modest about your photographic (and graphic art) skills. Since you said that this was your 1st wedding and your 1st DSLR, may I ask what sort of camera and subjects do you normally shoot?
    Tom M
  19. John,
    I have not supplied any images so far so I can renumber the photographs. Hmm, this sounds like a good escape route; a narrow one but an escape route nonetheless. Michael, thank you for your advice. Unfortunately, I think I just may have to give him what he wants. I agree the law would be on my side but my restaurant does not look kindly upon skirmishes either, even if it is his fault.
  20. DO NOT give them all the images. Under no circumstances. You will open yourself up to a day in small claims court. He'll claim all sorts of promises never kept, broken contract etc etc. He knew what he was doing from the start and he set you up for what you are going through now. That's why he didn't want a contract. Verbal contracts are worth the paper they are written on and he could claim all sorts of stuff you never agreed to. Any judge would most likely side with the consumer where there is no contract and you can't prove your side of the story. It's happened before.
    This will only get worse. Do not go back over the shots to find hidden gems. This only opens the door to getting a few more and a few more and a few more. In fact if he harasses you again, delete all the poor shots and be done with it.
    If what you are saying is true, this guy would be described with words I can't post here. He treated you like dirt at the wedding, he feels entitled to everything and will not stop pushing if you give an inch. I earlier suggested you get your lawyer to send him a letter. I meant that. The letter should contain a part that all agreed to items have been delivered and no files beyond these remain. If there is any further contact over this matter, you will get a restraining order. In the mean time, if there were any witnesses to the first threat, gather the info such as phone numbers.
    Honestly I can't understand why you've spent so much money (what 4x the fee?) to do all this. Were you considering going into photography? Stick to you current job. Let this be a big lesson.
    Oh and if they don't like that cover shot or the design work. Tell them to stuff it. It's a good shot and a nice design. Way over the top for a shoot and burn job.
    Oh BTW, the Nikon manual clearly shows which lenses are suited to the D800. The 50mm f1.4G isn't one of them. I'd go back to the rental company and ask for a refund on the lens rental. They should know better (this is common knowledge to Nikon shooters who have gear at this level) and have rented you a different lens. Namely the 24-70mm f2.8
    Edit: Oh that last post changes everything. YES RENUMBER, pros all do this. Delete the poor shots and that's the end of it.
    Edit 2: Again to your follow up post. I am dead serious about the lawyer and restraining order. If he does anything again at your work, back off, say nothing and take firm action. Type A fools like this need to be dealt with in the firmest fashion possible.
  21. a) BTW, are the folks on the cover of your CD the B&G or the parents?
    b) You may not want the B&G to see this thread, especially with regards to them finding out that you publicly posted a photo of them (or someone else in their wedding party). Hopefully, "David Ross" isn't your real name, so this thread won't come up if they do a search on you. If this actually is your real name, you may want to get in touch with one of the moderators and have your on-line alias changed and have that photo deleted.
    Just my $0.02,
    Tom M
  22. Tom I agree. Once David has the info he needs, he should contact Nadine (moderator) to have the name changed and the photo removed.
  23. To keep from a physical attack get the restraining order and worry about the rest after. This guy is way out of line.

    Best of luck and keep us posted under the name of JOHN DOE or something.
  24. Hi guys. Thank you for the sound advice. Yes the folks on the cover are the B&G. I will take your advice contact Nadine, have the photo removed, and change my username. I think all that I'm left with is I'm going to have to cave in to the groom and give him most of the photos.
  25. Thanks Peter for your considered advice too. I do not have a lawyer nor can I afford one. The worst thing too is that this guy can complicate things at my job. He already did by coming in and threatening me. How do I contact Nadine, everyone?
  26. Again as others have said, if the shot is good and in focus, printable etc, then give it to them. DO NOT give them any that are bad, test shots etc that they could use against you. Renumber etc. Do not cave in, this is exactly what he wants and will continue to push and push. Then use whatever he can against you. I can see the future. He'll say it was badly done (even if it wasn't) and demand a full refund. Once he has the shots, he'll do it I bet. Make sure he signs off on receipt of the completed set with no further items to be delivered. You need proof you gave them what they ordered.
  27. Definitely get anything else in writing. Don't have any verbal communiation whatsoever. If you delete & renumber, they can't come back asking for additional photos--it'll appear they are all there. Do it registered mail. I'm sorry you had to go through this.
  28. I hate to sound nosy and repeat my request, but I'm really curious ...

    Since you said that this was your 1st wedding and your don't own a DSLR, may I ask what sort of camera and subjects do you normally shoot? I ask because your CD cover is beautiful -- It's much better work than I've *ever* seen from newcomers to who state that they have never shot a wedding and don't own a DSLR.

    BTW, the guy in the photo looks old enough to be a grandfather. IMHO, something very odd must be going on because it's unusual for someone of that age to physically threaten anyone.

    Tom M
  29. Hi Tom,
    No you are not nosy at all. I have a fine art degree and I took four years of photography in art school but that was during the days of film. (The Nikon D800 was like trying to fly the space shuttle in comparison.) With that said, I am a perfectionist and I want all of my photos to be beautiful. Because the D800 was new to me, I knew I would not be able to take consistently great photos and I forwarned the B&G about my inexperience. That is why I promised them 10 great photos an hour ( I am giving them 20 an hour). I am trying to start my own company. For some reason, I am getting requests to shoot weddings and that is why I only agreed to do so under specific conditions. I have another request for a wedding this September. After what I've been through, I just want to turn it down. I am not contractually prepared and I would want to own a DSLR for a while before I agree to shoot another wedding. I don't want to be a wedding photographer but I can always use the experience. I want to shoot photography for tourists, which you can see on my website. Just straight forward stuff. As far as the CD cover goes, I spent two full days doing it. The bride was wearing a white wedding gown with purple accents so I sampled the purple rhinestones in her sash and came up with the concept for the cover. The lavender spine is the same lavender in her sash. The exact sampling did not look good in print so I went back and chose the closest Pantone color swatch. Then it printed great. I have only been into digital photography for 3 years now. My first camera was a Leica X1. The image quality was great but because it did not have a built-in viewfinder I sold it and bought a Fuji X100. I love the Fuji but because it is a fixed lens camera with no burst mode and only an APS-C sized sensor, I felt I was not giving the B&G my best for the wedding so I decided to rent the Nikon D800. I bounced the speedlight off the ceiling to flood the subjects with ambient light and it helped combat the flat yellow light of the restaurant. I am glad I made this decision. The groom is in his late 50's. He restores antique cars and he is built like a tank and is as strong as an ox. He is very intimidating and has quite an anger streak. I have learned a lot from my mistakes and I will be revising my website because of it. I do want to get the D800E and the 24-70mm 2.8g but I don't have the money for it right now. I need to spend the money developing my website more and incorporating into my website terms and conditions and a pricing structure which is clear and concise. Also, I just love my Fuji X100. It is a great street camera and I've learned enough about the D800 and SB900 that I can apply what I've learned to my Fuji camera and its external flash. All of the photos on my website were done with the Leica X1 and Fuji X100.
  30. You've received a lot of good free advice from non-lawyers. Now call one (a real one) and ask him / her what you should do.
    You don't mention if you are in a larger city or a smaller town. That matters because politics can play into these things. If you are in a small town with a sheriff and one or two restuarants then your job already may be in danger.
    What I see is that the groom is probably well connected and isn't afraid of you calling the police or lawyers because he probably owns them.
    I'd do what has been suggested regarding the photos - renumber them and say this is all of the images. Period. Delete all copies of any other images from the wedding.
    Sounds like you've got a groom-zilla on your hands.
  31. So many issues in this one event-- preparation, competence, contracts, early red flags, anger management, refunds, liability. Great discussion.
    David, will you let us know on this thread how it progresses/ends?
    Also, semi-related-
    1) can you say where you got the solo trumpet track for the website? It's very nice, super appropriate for your purposes, and I'd like something similar as well.
    2) your website idea is smashing really, I've thought of doing that myself for sports and events nites/dates-- accompanying a couple for 5-10 hours and shooting their whole night, plus a book. I hope your model works! the world has "personal chefs", why can't it have personal photographers for couples, right?
    3) you took care of the name issue, i dont remember now if you extended that to the company name, as it can be tracked back via trademark to you, remember? if Nadine didn't address that, it would be smart. (ignore this if already handled).
  32. Hi David (R) - Thanks for the info. When I saw your wonderful artwork, I was dying of curiosity. Now, it's clear. We never see wedding newbies who can pull off a shot and design like that. If the other shots in the set are half that good, the B&G should be absolutely delighted, especially considering that they got your labor + other things for free. In fact, it looks like they should have been delighted if you had charged them several thousand $$$ more.
    The best of luck in getting rid of this current thorn in your side, and developing the various aspects of your photography business. I'm sure you will do very well.
    Tom M
  33. Have you communicated with the other person from this this they/them duo you are talking about?
  34. You know, you've received wonderful advice with regards of deleting any photo that you wouldn't want out there and then re-number when you export. That's one part.

    The other is that you're dealing with a bully. A bully doesn't stop. They will go and go and go. If you offer an inch, they'll take a yard. So when you deliver the photos, make it perfectly clear that that's all there is. Delete the rest. Tell him that any further contact should go through your attorney and that you will not respond to any further contacts. Then stick to it. If he shows up somewhere and threatens you, have him arrested. Bullies can't be reasoned with. It's not how they operate. If they smell fear, they'll take you for all you're worth. The only thing you can do when you encounter a bully is stand firm. Mean it. Follow through. Don't waver.
    Best of luck!!!!!
  35. I'm actually confused after reading your post again. 10 photos per hour, but you gave them 20.

    This is very disconcerting if we all think about it. Lets say you worked 8 hours and you promised 10 great shots per hour. Well here's my problem. 10 X 8 = 80. but you gave them 20. So 20 x 8 = 160 shots for lets say 8 hours.

    Only 160 images for $1200? I'd take you to court if that happened to me. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but if I were the photographer that only took 160 quality shots, I'd be getting my dress suit pressed for the law <suit>.

    Maybe it's me, but if that were my wedding I'd be really upset too and demand all of the shots, plus a full refund.

    Sorry buddy, but I have to lean in favor of the bride and groom, however he has no right to threaten you.

    Here's my opinion regarding weddings. It's not how many great shots you take, but telling a story, with the formals as well as PJ style from the start to the end. There is no way you could have told a story with just 160 images.

    For your next wedding, as a beginner, you should be around 2000 images. Some good photographers shoot 2000, 4000, and even up to 8000, if there are 2 shooters for the 8000 frames. Well we are all different and I'd say the average for the average shooters, who are gifter pro's and have been in business for a number of years probably average around 1200 or more.

    Again I'm sorry to perhaps bust your bubble here, regardless of how great the cameras and the lenses are that you rented, you still badly messed up.

    Keep studying wedding photography and portrait photography, try to hook up with an experienced wedding pro near you. Give yourself a good 2 years before charging that kind of money. Good luck to you and keep working at this.
  36. Although the pics are good, couples want more.
  37. I agree with you Bob that 20 images an hour are way on the light side but with no disrespect I think your numbers are slightly inflated. 4,000 images in 8 hours works out to be one image every 7 seconds for the whole day or 3 1/2 seconds it they are two shooters. Not leaving you much time to be creative is it.
  38. Thank you all for your responses. I mean it. I will let you all know how it turns out. Now to address Bob Bernardo's concerns. I understand your points and your thoughts are very reasonable but there is more to this story. We had agreed beforehand for me to meet the bride and groom at their apartment for last minute make-up photos. Also, because the venue where they were getting married was a restaurant (with monotonous yellow light), I suggested that before the wedding we take photos on their rooftop garden (by the way everyone, I live in NYC) so that we can get some nice daylight photos before the wedding which started at 11:30am at the restaurant. They agreed. Also, they had a convertible Jaguar and we agreed to take photos before the wedding outside of the restaurant. I was to shoot during the wedding and I agreed to take photos after the wedding and reception back on their rooftop garden with their after-wedding guests. A nice full day. Here is what happened, however:
    The night before the wedding the B&G cancelled the morning wedding shoot. They said they wouldn't have time for make-up shots or photos on their rooftop. This was at least two hours of shooting that I lost. Instead, they told me to meet them at the restaurant at 11:30am and we would take photos outside before the wedding. The B&G were a 1/2 hour late and there was so much traffic on the streets that the groom just got out of his car and told me to go park it for him in the parking structure. This took about 10 minutes for me to do. When I got back to the restaurant for the wedding, the music and the wedding already started without me! They did not wait for me. I still managed to run around a get a couple of shots of the bride with her father but they were not optimum photos. The ceremony took about 5 minutes. Immediately after the ceremony, I asked the B&G if I could have them for a bit and take their photos. The groom told me no. He told me that he did not have time and that he and the bride had to greet their guests. The wedding reception was basically a cocktail reception for three hours. During this time I did not have any alone time with the B&G. At the very end of the cocktail reception, I did manage to get a few minutes alone with them but they looked tired and worn out. All they wanted to do is go home. On top of this, they canceled their after-party on their rooftop garden. Again, no more photos. All-in-all, I shot for about 3 1/2 hours total out of a planned 8 hours. The only time I got with them was at the end when they were not cooperative and they were tired. The B&G are in their 50's and they have both been married before. When they were canceling our original plans, they said that did not care about having traditional wedding photos but for me to be there just to document their wedding. I could do nothing about it and I was I was determined to take great photos nonetheless. I did the best I could. Now after the wedding they are being awful. They want me to photoshop different photos together, get rid of every wrinkle, and so on. They want me to present to them great photos of them alone together except that they did not give me alone time together. Even with this, I still think I managed some terrific photos. I tried calling the bride and she was busy and said she would call me back but she did not. She is communicating everything through her husband. I really wanted to make their day special and besides this nightmare scenario, I just wish they could be happy.
  39. Perhaps 160 is the lower side, but we can't judge it on one number alone. It's all about expectations. If they expected 160
    good quality photos at the end and were happy with this then thats the job done. The fact is your delivered double what
    you discussed, so they can't complain on quantity if indeed the quality is consistent.

    Just a little nitpick, as I think everything has been pretty well covered having read through, but quantity is one of the
    downfalls of digital and people wrongfully feel pressured by it. Some of the photographers I admire and follow (world
    renowned) typically deliver 180-250 for 12 hours coverage. No, the rest of us don't produce work of that quality, but
    throwing out thousands of images is, well... A personal decision I guess.

    Anyway, sounds like an awful situation here. Don't waste any more of your time and stress on it David. Act promptly,
  40. If I were in your situation, I would give the groom the files after he signed a release. The release would basically state that upon receiving the files you have overfilled all photography obligations for the wedding (include date) now until the end of time. Also stare that neither he, his wife, or any third party individuals can make any claims, or requests to wedding photos/images/files.
  41. I suggest you do several things:
    1) write a letter-reiterate your understanding of the verbal contract terms and conditions, explain that as a goodwill gesture you are sending them all photos, state they your position is that you do not expect to deal with them in the future in any manner and all future comments, inquiries and threats will be dealt with by legal authorities
    2) give the couple all of the photographs-you do not have "rep" to protect so who cares if someone sees the garbage
    3) mail, certified, return receipt requested the CD with all the photos and the letter
    4) keep your cell phone handy and have 911 pre-programed in case the groom accosts you again, press the button and tell him that you have summoned the authorities because you fear him
  42. All-in-all, I shot for about 3 1/2 hours total out of a planned 8 hours. They want me to present to them great photos of them alone together except that they did not give me alone time together.​
    David, I had an exact experience like yours if you check out my recent post. I was given a total of 30-45 minute shooting time for the entire wedding with an uncooperative bride. Some people just cannot be pleased and washing your hands is the best thing to do. I would try to end it on a high note if you could, and don't let it dampen your spirit.

    After that difficult bride, I've done a few e sessions and weddings with great results so that incident is water under the bride for me now. Going out there and shoot some more is perhaps the best remedy. If you do anything long enough, you are bound to encounter some difficult people and situations.
  43. ...yes, wash your hands of the affair. And just remember to not make a committment to shoot their next marriages. They sound like jerks, both of them, and probably won't stay married long. They were using you. Never forget that experience!
  44. John McCosh ------ "slightly inflated. 4,000 images in 8 hours works out to be one image every 7 seconds for the whole day or 3 1/2 seconds it they are two shooters"

    Hi John, these weren't made up numbers! Several photographers on this board have posted these numbers.

    Again, I didn't make this up!!! Oh, I can understand 2000 shots at a long 2 day event, but for me even a 2 day event this is a lot of shooting to tell a story.

    I totally agree that the amount of shots taken such as 2000 and more are too many, unless it's a 2 day event, such as the India weddings.
  45. David ---"When I got back to the restaurant for the wedding, the music and the wedding already started without me! They did not wait for me.

    Well make sure you tell the DJ, the wedding coorinator, whomever to call you on your cell bafore any activity has started. Oh course give them your cell number. This really isn't your mistake here, so take this advice and remember to do this at every wedding.

    It was VERY rude to start a wedding without the photographer and the B&G. This is actually more of a shock to me that something like this could happen.

    I've shot in NYC a few times, the largest wedding event was at the Waldorf (spelling?) perhaps one of the most famous hotels in NYC. 2000 plus people and yes 2 photographers. If they ever pulled that with me they too would be in court along with me for totally messing up the Grand Entrance.

    Added to this I can't remember the last time I took wedding shots the day before the wedding, mainly because the bride doesn't want to be seen in her dress until the next day. Actually never.

    Lastly the B&G almost always are never on time. Something else to learn and understand about weddings.
  46. As usual, sorry for typo's
  47. Hi Bob, 2000 shots at a two day event is reasonable if they are all day events. I attended a charity function where I offered my services for free for the day to cover it for them. It was called "Shave for a cure" where you had your head shaved to raise funds for blood cancer. There was two events one in the morning and one in the afternoon. The afternoon one the Charity secured the local Rugby team that had a few players in it's team that played for the All Blacks and had just won the Rugby World Cup to come along and have their head shaved.
    Well there were camera's everywhere with lens's longer than my arm. We were only three meters from the stage... All of these paparazzi had their camera's set on high continuousness shooting and sounded like machine gun fire. Each one must have shot hundreds of images in the 5 mins they were there then they all disappeared.
    Interestingly the star of the team choose my photo for his Facebook page and the local media used this one in their editorial. There are times when shooting 6 or 7 frames a sec are required to capture the action but at other times studying your subject and pressing the camera button just at the right time will get you better results.
    For those who are interested my photos can be viewed here. note: these are all the photos I took on the day with none deleted.
    David, I wish you well and hope you can sort this out and put it behind you and move on. Good luck.
  48. Just for the heck of it I googled the Waldorf-Astoria in NYC. As stated it is perhaps the best or surely one of the best hotels in NYC. It has 47 stories with about 15 banquet rooms and an orchesta hall. An amazing place to get lost in for a few days!

    Anyway, the more you tell us the more you need to give them back their money and give them all of the photo's bad or good. Just walk away the safest and fastest way you can. Like tomorrow, take care of this. Then they get what they want and you walk away, write off the rental on your taxes.

    I'm truely scared for you. As always I wish only the best for fellow photographers.

    Feel free in emailing me if I can help you out somehow.
  49. Bruce has some good suggestions. I wouldn't adopt Dave's however.
    Claiming that any and all kinds of future contact will result in some legal reaction is untenable. Promising to do things that may be unsuitable to do later is fraught with problems. Providing all images, including duds, gives ammo to claims that your performance was unsound. The agreement is being ignored as it is and will probably be denied as to the terms. Giving bad images just invites claims of poor performance and demands for refunds. That you have no reputation to protect is irrelevant to this.

    If you can get one of the clients to sign off, in writing, that you performed satisfactorily and that no further duties or obligations exist, your in a good position. Given the menacing behavior, you may not be able to get this done. Communicating your position and having proof of its delivery, as stated, may help if there's no denial sent back.
    Edit: Maybe Bob's suggestion is good for practical reasons if not in principle.
    Definitely don't do anything like this again.
  50. Taxes - you can write off the retail gear and lost wages, but I'm not an accountant. I know this can be done somehow through the schedule C, which is some sort of itemized account of your wedding business, eventhough you are not a full-time, or even a part-time photographer. You can also write off broken and stolen gear.

    This is my favorite part when going to do taxes! I always seem to get back a few extra bucks, compared to doing a short form or any other form! Whether you break even on this C section or declair a lose, I hope this will end up helping you break even.

    As already said best of luck and email me if needed. This goes for any photographer, the pro's or the wanna be pros. There are of course many other pro's here that are better at the law and your rights. I can't begin to say who are great, because of so many, but the one that I'd ask a few questions to regarding photography, not the law, would be the head of the wedding forum, Nadine.

    This is actually why I would give them everything as soon as you can and be glad if you don't go to court.

    My last request to you and every photographer. If you do this as a business, for God sakes get photographers insurance. They will cover this for you. I have a 1 million dollar policy and the cost is very little. Here in the better hotels of Los Angeles you need to show your insurance card, or a letter from the insurance company, proving you have a value of 1 million. There are other hotels that want 2 million, but I can usually BS my way in with the 1 million by telling them I'm a PressPro photographer with Kodak and a member of the elete Kodak Promise of Excellence. More BS, but it works! I've never been turned away.
  51. Surely anything which happens on the hotel's property should be covered by the hotel's insurance.
  52. Again, thank you everyone for your suggestions and, unexpectedly, for your support too! I have two weeks to wait for my CD folio be printed and shipped. During this time, I am going to go through all of my photos, good, bad, and indifferent, and apply general post-processing to them in LR4. I will get rid of the out-of-focus images and then just rename the files so they appear continuous. Unfortunately, I am a bit compromised because I met this couple at my place of employment so I can't play hard ball with this couple. I will hand over to them what they want in front of witnesses. I will assure them all their images are in the CD. After I put all of the images on their CD, I will erase them from my computer and I will tell the B&G this. I will back up their CD and keep it just in case this goes to court. I will also cease all contact from the B&G and erase their phone number from my phone. I will ask them, politely, to never call me again. We will see how this works.
  53. David,
    I can't comment on what you should do concerning the photos as I just take pictures for my own enjoyment. But I can tell what you should do when threatened. You should have called the police and made a report when the groom threatened you. Depending on how and what he said it could be Menacing or just simple Harassment. But you need to document the encounter so if any thing happens in the future you can show a history of threats.
  54. The paper and ink has cost a fortune.​
    It's silly to print it yourself. Send it out to a mail order lab that will print 8x10's for $1.50 which is probably far cheaper than the cost of paper and ink.

    It's also not clear whether your verbal contract specified prints or files. He wanted photos. Give him photos.

    However, the harassment and physical threats are really the first thing you have to address. It doesn't make sense to do anything else until that it under control.
  55. Peter Zack wrote
    Oh BTW, the Nikon manual clearly shows which lenses are suited to the D800. The 50mm f1.4G isn't one of them. I'd go back to the rental company and ask for a refund on the lens rental. They should know better (this is common knowledge to Nikon shooters who have gear at this level) and have rented you a different lens. Namely the 24-70mm f2.8​
    There's nothing wrong with using the D800 with the 50/1.4G. New camera. New lens. It would be silly if they didn't work with each other. And it says right in the manual (p. 425) compatible with AF Nikkor lenses include type G.

    And though the 24-70/2.8 would have been a better choice for a wedding gig, it's not the rental company's job to make sure a novice picks the right gear. They have to assume the renter knows what they need. Someone walks in and wants to rent a D800, a 50/1.4G, and the 70-200, what do you expect them to say? You're a first time wedding shooter, so a D300, and the 17-55/2.8 would be a more affordable alternative and fully capable of handing the job.

    However, the situation sounds like such a mess, any discussion about what equipment should have been rented is superfluous.
    Before David shoots another wedding, he should join an organization like PPA which will provide indemnity insurance for this sort of thing and maybe even access to lawyers who specialize.
  56. David, you have alot of info. Take a serious lookat all of your answers abd pick out how you want to handle this. Everyone that posted did great to help you.Perhaps take the advice of many and come up with a plan that perhaps will end on satisfied terms by both.
  57. If you can only offer your clients 20 images from each hour of shooting, then seriously you should never have agreed to do this in the first place. $1,200 for what - approximately 100 - 160 images (working on 5 - 8 hours).​
    Josh McCosh, I seriously have to wonder what we are doing as photographers. If you shoot a five to eight hour event with quality equipment and after careful editing you offer a client 100-160 choice shots I think that should be enough. In the days of film that would be considered fantastic. I mean this business of dumping 4,000 shots on a client is just absurd. It's a free country and people can choose to conduct their business any way they please but I would prefer a nice well edited portfolio.
    Only 160 images for $1200? I'd take you to court if that happened to me. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but if I were the photographer that only took 160 quality shots, I'd be getting my dress suit pressed for the law .​
    Bob Bernardo, back in the day (1990s) you couldn't pay a photographer to shoot all day and then demand 160 frames from negatives at the end of the day for $1200. And certainly not 160 keepers from a carefully edited shoot.
    One caveat is I am an amateur. I don't know how the business is conducted these days. I shoot digital and analog. There is no way I would get 4,000 images of anything with analog. Digital is just a tool. It hasn't changed the art. You can spray and pray with digital but I don't think you are going to get significantly more keepers than thoughtful shooting and editing with film. If someone produced 160 great images from my wedding and handed over the edit files to me to print as much as I wanted I would think that was a pretty good deal. I have NEVER sat down and looked at a wedding album with over 160 images... Let alone 160 quality edited images.
  58. Let alone 160 quality edited images.​
    There's no hard and fast rules when it comes to image numbers. I often underpromise and overdeliver to the clients. One couple literally didn't want to do any couple's shots after the wedding and I gave them 200 images for a whole day wedding and they were happy.
    Most of my full day weddings, I gave them between 300-400 images and the couples are happy. A few I gave them around 220-250 and I never had anyone complained that my image count is too low.
    I promised one East Indian couple 400 and they were pretty impressed and said that's a lot. So go figure. Only one time I had one bride told me "but other people are giving 800 pictures" during consultation. I gave her about 400 pics and she was happy too.
    I'm a firm believer in that what seperates a pro from an ameture is that the pro only presents the best of the best.
  59. I do weddings as a side business and try to shoot 3 or 4 a year, I have been doing this for over 8 years. I do have a
    signed contract before I book their date on my calendar. You can go online and find many samples off of other
    photographers web sites and take what you like, change it around a little and pay a small fee to have an attorney to tweak
    it and give you his blessings,
    All of the experienced photographers in here did have their first paid wedding once, we all made mistakes, and it's OK to
    make mistakes, but learn from them, and try hard not to repeat it again.
    No one should bash you in here, we all have learned things the hard way, we're just not brave enough to tell everyone.
    I charge based on the length of time I will be shooting at the wedding, I usually tell them I will give them between 150 to
    250 photos as the end product. I may shoot 2000 photos I then delete unacceptable photos based on out of focus, or bad
    lighting, or whatever reason I would be embarrasses if anyone saw them. If you let the B&G see any of the poor quality
    shots you most always here someone say " that's a shot I really wanted" and they will not be happy with all the other
    great shots.
    Report any threats you get as soon as it happens, then if something does happen ( god forbid), there will be records on
    file that will back you up later when pressing charges on him. Record anyone who is witness to the threats.
    Give them what you agreed on with him from the beginning and if he has a problem with it the don't be afraid to go to
    small claims court. He has no contract to counter what you claim and 9 out of 10 times will be dismissed. You don't need
    a lawyer for small claims court, and bring a witness with you to testify to the threat you received. As stated earlier, I have
    never seen a wedding album with over 150 quality edited photos in them. Most of mine have 40 to 100. They may have a
    proof book with 200 to 250 which was given to them so that they could pick out what photographs the wanted in the finial
    I have never printed my photographs, there are too many great companies that you upload your finial pictures and they
    creat your album for you. You do have the freedom to design and layout the book but let them print it for you.
    Good luck on what ever you decide, and learn from it and take the next step to be a wedding photographer. It can be
    great fun and rewarding, but it isn't as easy as people think.
    If I was asked to park their car I would say excuse me you must be mistaken me for the valet, then take a candid shoot of
    the fool and then smile and tell him you are his photographer.
  60. it


    As soon as there is a threat of violence, wouldn't a contract be somewhat of a side issue?
  61. Again, thank you for all of your advice. I will let you know what happens two weeks from now when I get the CD folio in the mail and give it to the B&G. As far as my lens choice. Yes, I rented the 70-200mm 2.8g and 50mm 1.4g. Yes, I know that the 24-70mm must be in every photographers camera bag and I thought seriously about getting but I decided against it. The reason why is that I was renting the D800 and I wanted to shoot with one prime lens and one zoom lens for the wedding. Like I said, this was a very hefty expense and the cost of renting a third lens, the 24-70, would've cost me another $200. The reason why I chose the 50mm was that I really wanted to see what resulted when using a prime lens on the D800. Yes, I rented the D800 for the wedding but I also rented the D800 because I wanted to see if it is a DSLR that I would like to purchase. What better way to put it through its paces than to shoot it with a zoom and a prime? As it turned out the 70-200mm was not only more useful, and I'm glad I got it, but it was sharper too. The 50mm was soft at the center focus point but just outside of this point it was sharp. I wish I could post some images to show you here but it was strange indeed. What compounds the problem is I don't know why this happened. I had a pro photographer help me with this camera and lenses and he too was confounded as to the issue of soft focusing with the 50mm. Because it was a camera rental (and being in NYC, these cameras and lenses are really stressed), who knows what the cause of this was. Despite my awful wedding experience I did walk away deeply impressed with the D800. Someday I would like to purchase the D800E and, being the minimalist that I am, I only want to get one lens. Guess which one? That's right; the 24-70mm f2.8.
  62. John McCosh- the bald pis are fantastic and what a special event that must have been.Nice work.
  63. Russell - "Bob Bernardo, back in the day (1990s) you couldn't pay a photographer to shoot all day and then demand 160 frames from negatives at the end of the day for $1200. And certainly not 160 keepers from a carefully edited shoot."

    Well I agree with this Russell. I started in the late '80's actually. The major difference is in the film days every time you take a shot the cost back then was a $1 per shot. So if you took 160 pics your cost was about $160. Back then I shot around 200, so my cost was $200.

    With CF cards or SD cards you can shoot for weeks at no cost on the same CF card.

    Now, when booking a wedding almost always the B&G want to know how many shots I will be taking. Maybe this is why photographers over shoot, because it is free! Back in the film days if we took 2000 we would have been in trouble. Back then reorders were very high, Everyone ordered reorders and often very large enlargements, 24x30. Now you have to work very hard at selling a simple 11x14. It's a different world now. I feel it's good and bad, because in the '90s I think photographers were more careful and didn't make very many mistakes. I'm not saying that photographers these days are not careful. There's tons of really great photographers and the more shots they take the more fantastic images are keepers.

    In the film days I don't thnk photographers were as creative as they are in the digital world.

    Anyway Russell I totally aree with you about the film days and we were very careful to not over shoot. It's amazing how digital has changed the wedding business. It's pretty crazy.
  64. Russell,
    I agree with you that 4,000 images are too many and in my last post I did complain about shoot and spray photographers.
    I take anywhere from 600 - 800 images at a wedding this covers their whole day from the bride and bridesmaids getting ready, Ceremony, Family and Guest shots, Formal's, Reception shot's including table shots of every couple, speeches, Cake cutting, First Dance and Dance with farther etc. Usually 12 hours duration.
    My Wedding albums have around 300 - 400 photos displayed in 120+ pages and tell the story of the couples wedding day. This is where I get my business. Agreed others might only give the client the very best of their shots and there is nothing wrong with that model either.
    I'm not saying for one moment that every photo in my album is perfect in every way, far from it, But my albums do tell a story and that is how I get referrals. This model works for me.
    Sample album can be viewed here for those who are interested.
  65. David,
    Don't let this one bad experience deter you from following your photography dreams. You have the skills to be a great photographer and I wish you all the best and good luck with the outcome.
  66. Bob Bernardo, perhaps people overshoot because they THINK it is free. I mean as you said, it looks like it's free. But if you factor in the costs that are proportional to the number of shots it's not so free anymore.
    The biggest cost is probably time spent in post production. Let's say you shoot 2000 images and it takes you 20 hours total in post production. If you would have shot 500 images you could have cut down the time to perhaps 5 or 6 hours. That means that the additional 1500 images cost you 14 hours of additional work. Average hourly wage for an employee in the US is $23. That's $0.21 per shot. If you value your time higher or lower or spend more or less time in post then you need to adjust but however you look at it, it costs money every time you press the shutter. It's not free at all.
    Lets say you shoot for instance 4000 images. If you value your time at $23 per hour, every second you spend looking at every image will cost you $25.56. And just looking at every image for 5 seconds will take you 5.5 hours. It's not until you do the math that you realize how long certain things take when you have large volumes of images. If you then factor in every wedding that you shoot per year there is a lot of time and money to be saved by shooting more effectively.
  67. I also have another question for you all. When you export your photos to a CD, which file format do you use? I was thinking about exporting the photos in three different formats; tiff (in order for the B&G to edit as they see fit), jpg (for printing), and small jpg's (for email). I don't want them coming back to me ever again and complain to me that I missed something.
  68. Pete, I agree in principal with you and 4,000 images are way to many for a wedding. However I also believe 120 images are to few images to tell the story for the couple. Time is money but you also have to offer value for money and this will be different for each photographer depending on their market. Also as you build a reputation and are in demand then you can offer less, but while your trying to build your business I prefer to spend spare time by offering my client more than doing nothing. I shoot around 20 weddings a year and around a 100 portraits along with a couple of schools in the wedding off season.
    David, I supply my customers with Data DVD's (3 Copies, 1 for them and 1 for each set of parents). The images are supplied in JPEG's only but in two folders high and low resolution. In each of these main folders is 8 sub folders. Preview, Bridal preparation, Ceremony, Family & Groups, Formal, Reception, Black & White & Effects.

    Everyone has a different model and what will work for one won't work for another. I looked at my local market and looked at what others supplied and tried to offer more for the same price.
  69. Don't bother with TIFFs
  70. Most of my full day weddings, I gave them between 300-400 images and the couples are happy. A few I gave them around 220-250 and I never had anyone complained that my image count is too low.
    I promised one East Indian couple 400 and they were pretty impressed and said that's a lot. So go figure. Only one time I had one bride told me "but other people are giving 800 pictures" during consultation. I gave her about 400 pics and she was happy too.
    Well I agree with this Russell. I started in the late '80's actually. The major difference is in the film days every time you take a shot the cost back then was a $1 per shot. So if you took 160 pics your cost was about $160. Back then I shot around 200, so my cost was $200.
    My Wedding albums have around 300 - 400 photos displayed in 120+ pages and tell the story of the couples wedding day.​
    Thanks for all the advice guys. I thought that 4,000 figure was a bit high. I see digital has changed things but is still reasonable... most of the time. I guess number of pictures shot on wedding day is the new megapixel race for consumers!
    I looked at my local market and looked at what others supplied and tried to offer more for the same price.​
    I guess that's the real driver.
    I was thinking about exporting the photos in three different formats; tiff (in order for the B&G to edit as they see fit), jpg (for printing), and small jpg's (for email).​
    David, your question assumes anyone other than a photographer that works with digital knows the difference between a JPEG and a TIFF. I wouldn't bother doing that for my best customer let alone my worst. As someone stated back in the day people didn't get negatives. You ordered prints. The fact they are getting high quality JPEGS is pretty incredible. I would be thrilled.
  71. Thank you, Russell. Your point about TIFF's and negatives is well said. I will supply JPEG's only
  72. Russel, you are right. 160 photos is too few nowadays.
    David Ross, so why did not the couple order a professional, after looking at his or her portfolio, but they, instead, ordered you? The price is not low - in Moscow this price is taken by the serious PJ and wedding photograper of a high league, in Kyiv the price tag is $600 and it is taken by top-notch pros.
    For 600-700 USD you have this:
    I admit, that in N.Y. the prices are much higher, but I can not consider your price to be low, still.
    It would be interesting to see at least 20-40 photos out of this your wedding.
    Why rent a camera? Buy a camera and build-up your porfolio. Sign a contract containing your time, quantity of photos, your lunch break.
    On the ship where I worked on June, 9, there were 4 photographers from Moscow, the cameraman and the couple looked into different lenses for the particular shot. I warned them to pose for me... The light was terrible, 2p.m., strong sun, blue semi-tramsparent roof (and the blue faces under the roof), black shadows under their eyes, very strong wind, heat, boat vibration, smoke, wrinkled faces due to the sun, wind, etc....
  73. Thanks to everyone here, I now have 540 images. For 3 1/2 hours, that is not bad. I do wish that I would have stuck to my guns and only gave them the 20 images an hour that I found terrific but this is a headache I just need to get done with. Considering that I was threatened at my place of employment, I also don't want to risk my job. I have been reading everyone's comments and debates as to how many photos are considered acceptable. I have photographed one wedding and so I can't say what is appropriate or not but I would like to to shoot fewer, better quality photos than to have a whole bunch of photos. I guess what is enough is what is needed to tell the story on the wedding day without leaving anything important out.
    Now to answer Ruslan. The $1200 also includes a custom CD folio with a miniature photobook inside. $600 might be alot of money where you come from but a studio apartment in NYC averages $1800 a month in my neighborhood, and I still have to travel an hour to work on the subway. The reason why I haven't bought a DSLR yet is because I wanted to try out the D800 and I just don't have $7,000 to spend on camera equipment yet. Like I said, I really would like to acquire a D800E. Upon consultation, the B&G wanted me to do this for free. I told them I could not shoot their wedding for free but if I were too expensive I would help them find another photographer. Finding a pro in NYC for $1200 I'm sure would be a diffult thing. Find a pro to do this wedding for free was impossible. Also at the consultation, I showed the B&G a photobook I had done for another client and they liked it. I also think they chose me for the obvious reason that I was convenient. I had seen some photos in the B&G's apartment that they considered professional. I certainly did not. I looked at your photos Ruslan and they are terrific. You are most definitely a pro. Thanks for sharing.
  74. you are right. 160 photos is too few nowadays.​

    It's about 100 more than I would want if I got married again.
  75. David, thank you so much for your answer. America is definitely another world for us, attractive, but so unknown. In Moscow 3-room flat (which in the property - not rented) is $150-400 a month for all the facilities. In my small town it is 100 in winter and $50 in summer. Many of our photographers can save for the equipment - which is 30-40% more expensive than in USA but our price tags are lower as the other prices are.
  76. Bob, thank you for your candid response. I wish, in retrospect, I would've had the forethought to follow your advice when asked to park the car. ; )
  77. "540 images"

    Hey David, that seems fine to me. I would say thats a very good amount of pics for 3 plus hours of work. If the couple doesn't like that, well you did your very best and you should be very happy that you have such high standards to give them 60 fantastic shots out of the 540. You really care about only showing them your top images.

    I didn't know you took that many. Seems like they should be happy now that they have all of your files. There's not much more that you can do to make them happy. You let them know ahead of time what your experience was.

    Glad you clarified the amount of shots you took. I feel a heck of a lot better. You did your job.

    I also think you need to continue to photograph weddings.

    Forgive my response of only taking so few photo's.
  78. Yes, when all was said and done, I wanted to give them 80 fully edited images. Those 80 turned into 133 images when adding B&W and other effects to the original color photos. These were the best. I post-processed these photos, took out every wrinkle, and did everything to make the couple look like models. Now with all of the other images, they are going to be unhappy in comparision but that is not my problem. They wanted all of the images. That is what they will get. I even took a few sequences of photos that I was going to stitch together into panoramas. I'm no longer going to spend the time doing this. For $1200, I have spent around 300 hours editing photos and designing the CD folio for this couple and they are not happy. I'm just hoping this nightmare will be over soon. I will never again work without a contract. I've learned my lesson. I also will not push the shutter release button as freely as before either. If I want a tighter portfolio, I will take less photos and be more deliberate. Thank you, Bob, for all your input. I will keep everyone updated here.
  79. Doh! Guys, now I have one more problem. How do I burn 540 images to one CD? I already reduced the file size from 36mp to 18mp but at 300dpi that is still 6GB of information! A CD only holds 1GB of information (another reason to only have 80 fully edited photos on CD). How do you burn your photos to CD?
  80. DVD and reduce the file size further to fit the size limit a DVD can hold. They don't need 18MB Jpegs for anything.
  81. Actually, 2 DVDs or 1 double sided DVD.
  82. Looks like you were in way over your head. I'd refund all the money minus the cost of equipment rentals. I would not give them all photos, but I'd give them all acceptable photos and tell the groom he has everything except out of focus photos and photos of the floor or ceiling. Explain that you warned him that you weren't a professional and this is the chance he took. Give him his refund and chalk it up as a learning experience. Sincerely apoogize and tell them that since they wouldn't sign a contract there's not much else you can do.
  83. No disrespect Nathan, but if you had read the post you would have read
    $1100 went to the cost of camera equipment for two weeks. I spent another $500 taking one on one lessons from a pro for two days with this equipment.​
    David you were not way in over your head you were working for a couple of jerks that are just being as awkward as they can be. Move on and chalk this up as experience all be it bad experience.

    Good luck with the outcome and with your future photography.

  84. Totally agree with John and Nadine. They are jerks. I'd reduce the size of the images to about 5 or 6 megabyte, jpegs. Thats fine for making very large enlargements.

    You keep surprising me here! All of that work you did in photoshop, making the people look great., B&W's. To be honest I only do touch ups with some of the romantics, formals, mainly shots involving the bride and close-ups. I don't mess with full length. I usually only convert to B&W the romantic shots, and a few others during the wedding. Maybe a total of around 20. I also play around with vignetting on about 10 or so images.

    You are surely a hard worker and very aware of giving the couples only your very best. Keep up your very high standards. Who knows, you may be writing books someday on weddings/ photoshop, helping the new photographers get into the business with these high standards.

    Also get rid of the people blinking, added to what Nadine suggested.

    Let us know how this turns out. A lot of people have posted offering you some great advice.

    Can you post an image or 2? You really have me interested so I'm sure several others are too.
    Let us know how this turns out. A lot of people have posted offering you some great advice.

    Can you post an image or 2?
  85. Join Professional Photographers of America...PPA. They have FREE Indemnity Insurance.
  86. Josh,
    I read the original post. Forgive me for not reading all of the 75 posts above mine.
  87. Hi Bob. Sure, I would love to send you a few images from the wedding. As you know, I posted photos here but I requested they be removed for fear of further reprisal. I sent you a private message. I hope to hear from you.
  88. David,
    I wouldn't consider myself a pro, I've taken no professional classes, I just learned from my amateur father. I was the photographer of high school and college (a PAC 10 school) newpaper and yearbook, worked for a budget wedding studio a couple of years while in college, then later did moonlighting wedding photography on my own for several years.
    I can't believe they paid someone who admittedly never took a wedding before that much, David you should be sales! Part of what you learn from experience is taking charge now and then to do the formal and traditional shots. I had an hour so meeting weeks before to find out what photos they want, and what the mood will be. I had a check off list of photos they wanted with some sort of priority (must have - only if the occasion arises - do don't you dare). This also gives other important info as to family attending, names, grandparents, parent marital status, etc to avoid embarrassments.
    At first I didn't charge anything beyond film/processing, but I already owned my equipment. Then I gave them double prints (free on wednesday's) and the neg's. I requested that they pay me what they thought the photography was worth, by golly, they all paid more than I would have dreamed asking.
    As far as giving them all the shots, I did except the floor, way out of focus, totally wrong exposure shots. I figured that one shot may be the only pic of an aunt or uncle etc. before they died the following week.
    Also, I've been told, and have tried unsuccessfully, don't photograph friends and families weddings.
    I do think you had a bad experience, I found them rare. I think its odd they had you park the car and started the festivities without you present shows that photography wasn't a high priority to them, then come back with such demands. These people are off base. I mostly found people were on their best Sunday behavior, the women extremely beautified (most, even B&G mothers, wanted to dance), food was great and plentiful, usually free drinks or they bought it for you, and at the end they PAID you. Could ask for more in a moonlight job.
  89. Sorry to hear about your situation, David. I've photographed weddings as gifts for family and friends and it's always been a pleasant experience. But I've never done so professionally and never will.
    I must say, you've bent over backward and then some. I'm pretty patient but my limit would have been exceeded the moment the fellow became threatening. My philosophy is to never pick fights but never back down from bullies. At that point I'd have given them whatever prints I'd done, called the police, gotten a restraining order and made it unmistakably clear that our business and personal relationships were permanently finished.
    Best of luck to you. With your patience and ability to deal with very difficult situations you may have what it takes to make a go of it as a pro.
  90. At least you now have one helluva portfolio
    Best wishes and let us know how the situation turns out
  91. Also, I've been told, and have tried unsuccessfully, don't photograph friends and families weddings.​
    I have only photographed weddings for friends and there have been no problems.
  92. Hi David.
    I've shot a couple weddings. I have read and learned from personal experience that prior to agreeing to shoot a couple's wedding, it is important to meet with them to determine if you are a fit for each other. In other words, it is essential for the photographer to predetermine if you will be happy spending a very long day working with this couple.
    It takes a lot of time, emotional and physical energy to shoot a wedding. If you and the couple like each other and work together cooperatively and are reasonable, this long day will be enjoyable and rewarding.
    I strongly recommend that you eat a huge meal before heading out to shoot a wedding and keep some snacks in your camera bag. Being able to sit down to eat during a wedding is not likely to happen. It has been my experience that when I am eating, I will leave my plate to capture a moment with my lens.
  93. Oh BTW, the Nikon manual clearly shows which lenses are suited to the D800. The 50mm f1.4G isn't one of them.
    This isn't at all true. Nikon has listed some of the lenses which give enhanced resolution with the D800. They didn't list all, it's just suggestive. The 50/1.4G is a fine lens, and under no circumstances does the D800 deliver a lower resolution than their lower-MP FX cameras. It's just a question of how much higher resolution the image will have, and that of course depends on the lens.
    There is no way you could have told a story with just 160 images.
    I have to say I have the opposite opinion. Photographic stories have been told of vastly more complex events and topics than a wedding in far fewer images by world class photographers in LIFE, National Geographic, GEO, etc. a host of magazines who specialize in high quality photo stories. If you need more than 20-30 images to tell the story of a wedding or a story on any particular topic you're either not trying hard, or you have difficulty with being concise. Scientists routinely have to summarize their papers that may have taken years of work in a few sentences. Why would a wedding photographer not be able to tell the story of one day in a few dozen images? 160 images is an absurdly high number of images to spend telling the story of a day, be it any day. Whenever I see wedding albums where a significantly higher number of images is delivered (than 100-200), many images are essential copies of each other with only slight variations, instead of visually separate works of art, as it should be. If you have two images of the same person in the same part of the event, then only one of them can stay. If you have used a composition for a group of people, that composition can only be used for one such image in the set, otherwise it's repetitive and redundant, not unique. If you have a child running on the ail getting out of control during the ceremony, you capture him or her in one image together with the other guests' reactions, not with separate images (since if the images are separate, how will the viewer know what the people are reacting to?) If you have two portraits of the couple in one location and in the same light, you choose the best one image instead of letting the client be confused about which of two similar images to use. If an image is a "good shot" but can be removed without the story suffering (i.e. it's not a cornerstone image), you remove it to keep things concise. You leave the classics in and that way you can get away with fewer images. The shorter the story is in number of images the more effectively it can be communicated and the less likely it is that the viewer gets bored. And that's what this is all about - telling the story of the day in such a way that no viewer is bored by the presentation, and they will all be excited and in awe, asking for more. Even those who couldn't care less about weddings in general.
    It's like in a good restaurant the food is expensive but there is only a very small quantity of it, because you shouldn't eat too much. 2000 images would be akin to going to an "all you can eat" pizza place.
    To the OP: I think the best course of action is to contact the police about the physical harrassment and if the client pursues legal action regarding your services then hire a lawyer to whom you explain the facts of the case, in all the detail that you can. I think you have fulfilled your obligations and should not have to make further amendments unless demanded by court.
  94. If you need more than 20-30 images to tell the story of a wedding or a story on any particular topic you're either not trying hard, or you have difficulty with being concise.​

    Whenever I see wedding albums where a significantly higher number of images is delivered (than 100-200), many images are essential copies of each other with only slight variations​

    I agree entirely.
  95. Ilkka, I totally disagree with you and so would all my clients. couples don't want a summery of their wedding day they want every detail recorded so in years to come they can look back and re-live their day. The wedding album is designed for them and them alone.
    Scientists routinely have to summarize their papers that may have taken years of work in a few sentences.​
    I am sure the Scientist that has worked for years has huge case notes to look back on. These case notes are the wedding album not his summery. If we follow your argument then we only need one photo to tell the story. The couple kissing at the ceremony. This one photo tells the whole story does it not.

    My clients hire me because I offer them a photographic record of their wedding day that they can look back on in years to come. If your customers are happy with 20 - 30 images then good on you.

  96. If you shoot a wedding with a journalistic approach, you don't need much more than a few times of events. you show up and capture their wedding like an outsider, and really feel the energy from it.

    I think photographers that feel they need to know your family history, are just trying to get into the head of the bride, and make her feel that you are almost family, you know so much about them.

    no thanks, that's not my style to try and get more money out of them...

    I have seen where some photographers list the price per hour for consultation.

    Give the Bride and Groom stunning images to cherish, and stop putting so much effort into selling yourself to them.
  97. I think photographers that feel they need to know your family history, are just trying to get into the head of the bride, and make her feel that you are almost family, you know so much about them.

    no thanks, that's not my style to try and get more money out of them...​
    I don't think so. Many times there are relatives and family friends. Its hard to tell the difference. Knowing ahead of time the bride's favorite relative will be there will give you the heads up to get their picture together.
  98. I just wanted to give an update to everyone here. Last week, I texted the groom and told him that his CD folio was finished. Perhaps because he knew he stepped over the line by threatening me, he sent his wife over to the restaurant (where I work) and she picked it up. She was rather cold and I could not tell whether she liked the CD folio or not. With 545 images on the CD, each was just 2 mp in size. They wanted all of their photos on a CD so I gave it to them. I am now finished with this project. I have made a lot of mistakes, especially not working with a contract. Thank you all for your support. I have learned a lot and it is time to move forward.
  99. Good to hear there was very little drama over the final delivery. Hopefully there will be no further emails or contact and you can put this behind you. Not surprised he sent her to do it, typical of a bully to get someone else to do their bidding. I wouldn't worry about her 'coldness', she's got to live with him, not you....
  100. David, thanks very much for the update.
    I would love to have a look at your CD folio.
  101. Hopefully that will be the end of it for you David. Don't let it put you off. You have talent so get out there and put it to good use.
  102. All in all, you had a good learning experience. Ive watch the TV Judges for several years (now retired) and you _did_ have a contract. Judges in Small Claims court, act the part of Lawyer and Judge for both sides. They will get the full story out of both parties, and uphold Verbal contracts. No Judge would have made you produce more than what you wanted, with this verbal contract. You would have won, you could still take them to court, and ask for payment for the images they demanded that went beyond your verbal contract. Most cases we see handled in small claims, are against a Photographer who promised things and never delivered them. No Photos, a year, two years after the wedding. Terrible images, out of focus, blurred, poor color, videos that include things which never should be in them or not delivered... To most of the Judges like Judy or Brown, and others, they would hold what you did up as an example of what should be done in such a contract, even if you only gave them 80 images or so... The reason they may have wanted the rest so much, was because what you first gave them was better than they expected, where it was better than the quality of Pro, photos they had in their home... But, they should have PAID you for the additional work you did.
    When I did wedding photography, my contract gave the couple a Wedding Album, with 20 8x10s in a White, and any above that, they had to pay an additional price per image.

    Using film, would always take about 200 all keepers, with my experience it usually meant 3 our of 100 were rejected... (That boosted my profit) We managed the Wedding Photos, like some Wedding Planners do today. Even though I did, most guests never realized a professional was there. Dressed like one of the Wedding Party, and was unobtrusive, talk to the person marrying them, to find out what was allowed during he Ceremony or not and never violated the rules. Went to the Brides home before the wedding, to the wedding, and reception. Staying until the B&G left the reception. Then the B&G usually ordered an album for both parents, and a smaller one for each of the wedding party, which were duplicates of the B&G album.

    Now that Ive retired, always take photos of friends or relatives weddings and give them to them as a Wedding Gift. It always surprises me, to find the Pro they are paying, following me around trying to get the same poses and angles they see me going for, it makes me wonder why they call themselves a Pro... Then, several times the B&G feel mine are much better than what they had to pay to get. Back in my day, went to school at NYI of Photography two years. Then apprenticed with a Professional for two years, before considering myself a Professional...
  103. Hi David,
    I went through a very similar event myself at the end of June. Basically, I was asked to shoot my best friends wedding. I was clear on the following:

    - I am inexperienced, but have taken a 1 day Wedding Photography course as primer for me to at least understand the basics required of me on the day.

    - No guarantees. I cannot guarantee that I will get every shot, and I cannot guarantee that all shots will be perfect.

    I'm trying to start a small photography business that offers photography services for various different things including Weddings. So, for me, the experience was invaluable as a foundation for experience, and my best friend knew that, though he insisted on paying me for doing it.

    I went through ALL the preparation in terms of meeting up with my best friend and showing him a list of potential shots I could try and get on the day. Over a few weeks he and his bride whittled these down to around 20 must-have shots, and listed the different guests they'd like group shots taken of.

    I must admit, that the thought of doing my first wedding shoot was daunting. So for me, I wanted to be prepared with my equipment, so, I spent spent some of my hard earned cash and bought myself the following:
    A Nikon D80 DSLR, a 24mm f2.8 Wide-Angle Lens, a 50mm f1.4 Prime Lens, a BlackRapid Camera Strap, Lens/Sensor Cleaning Kit and a new Camera Bag. Basically, a total of nearly £500 worth of additional equipment.

    So anyway, the day came around and I got to the venue early enough to capture shots of the Ceremony Room being prepared. Once I'd got these shots and I was very happy with them, I suddenly felt like I was in the ZONE and ready to go for all the rest of the photos for the day.

    For the Ceremony itself- I was told I was not allowed to move around too much and distract the guests. So basically, I was told to choose a fixed position that would allow me to get the best shots of the Bride and Groom, so I did as I was told and got (what I thought) were brilliant shots of both the B&G.

    We moved on to the group shots, and captured these as best as I could. Though I ignorantly realised half way through that the the guests had their back to the sun, while I was facing it. I took a moment to go through the shots I'd taken by looking at the LCD on my D80, even zoomed into the shots to confirm if I'd captured any sun spots/glare - but the photos looked fine to me, so I continued.

    I then finished up and took the shots of the first dance, and the B&G asked me to call it a day. I had a drink and relaxed after a very day, and decided that I'd review my shots when I got home - this is where the disaster began!

    All the shots were brilliant except for the Group Shots. I suddenly realised that there a sort of red glare on the entire shot, harsh shadows from very hard light. It was the same for every* shot literally. I scoured the internet for hours to find tutorials on how to correct this through PS, but everything I tried just wasn't good enough. At this point, I should have just been honest from the outset and told the B&G straight up, but again, my ignorance told me to work on the photos to see how far I could correct them.

    Anyway, 3 weeks later, I posted all the shots on my website in a password protected gallery for the B&G to see. I received a phone call an hour later from the groom saying that his bride thinks the Group shots are absolutely terrible, while all the other shots are just 'OK'. He requested me to send through the *.RAW versions of these files to him to compare to my edits which I was a bit reluctant to do, but thought it was wise as I was aware of how badly affected the photos were.

    Suddenly, his bride started sending me threatening, horrible messages on Facebook saying things like 'I've ruined her life', and 'How can you call yourself his friend after what you've done!'. They then demanded all *.RAW images from me as they lost all hope in my editing skills and wanted to go to a 3rd Party editor to edit ALL the photos!? - The Bride and Groom were clear that it was just the group shots.

    Anyway, I'm now in a situation where I had decided to give the B&G all the *.RAW images just to get them off my back, and the messages have stopped (for now). I've repeatedly told them both about the fact that I'm inexperienced and provided no guarentees, but they're not listening to me.

    The Groom paid me £200 for my work - I guess I should be thankful that I got paid something. But now, he's demanding this money back which he claimed was to cover my expenses. In total, I spent the £500 on equipment and at least £150 on travel to visit the venue before the big day and after, so £650 in total. The B&G seem totally oblivious to this and I am furious that I've been treated this way, though I understand their position to.

    I have no idea if I can do or say anything about this whole thing to them, or whether or not I should just keep schtum and say nothing at all. So in short, I totally understand what you're going through.
  104. Max--I am unclear what the exact problem is on your group shots. Can you post an image without showing faces?
    Perhaps we can help you.
    As for the situation--I would personally give the money back just to end things, as well as the files, and call it done unless you can find a way to reasonably edit the problem images. And call it a lesson learned.
  105. I usually agree with Nadine's opinions, but if I were Max, I would keep the money. If you were a professional photographer, I would refund everything. It doesn't sound like you are, nor like you presented yourself as one.
    You had a friend. He is now making unreasonable demands.
    It seems safe to me to assume that the friendship is over.
    In this case, I'd walk away. With the money. There is no reason they should be treating you like this. They don't sound like very good friends to me. While this might have been a painful revelation, better to find out now than later.
    Since Max is not a professional, why should he lose even more money on this bad experience?
  106. Eric--because whenever there is money involved, especially among friends or former friends, hard feelings get even harder. IMHO, no one needs that.
  107. Nadine, I agree with Eric in this case. Giving them the money back will not fix the friendship. That's done and over unfortunately. It's rule #1, refer friends to someone else and go as a guest.
    The second thing is, lets say that the photos were decent but just not what an experienced pro might produce. I realize I'm making a huge assumption but most of the time, people "hire" a friend because they want to save money and put no value on the photography until the day they get the shots back. They hope they get sirloin steak for the price of hot dogs. Then they realize that "your camera" isn't what takes nice pictures, the skill and experience of the photographer does.
    So these people tried to save money and rolled the dice. They lost and now are making demands. The second he refunds the money, he's admitted fault (IMHO, his only real faults were 1, he took money to do this when he was nowhere near ready to do a wedding on his own and 2, he did it for a friend and never should have) and the next thing will be he'll be asked to pay for a 3rd party editor to fix the photos. The demands will likely get worse from there.
    Draw up an agreement that you are handing over the original files and that this is the end of your responsibilities. That they can no longer come to you for any further work or compensation over this event.
  108. Peter--I'd still refund the money. That way, they can't come after me legally. I assume there wasn't a contract either, but I could be wrong. Without a contract and no money exchanging hands, I doubt that they could make good on any demands. I didn't recommend the refund with the idea that a friendship could be fixed.
  109. Point taken. There's certainly no 'perfect' fix in situations like this.
  110. Firstly, I'd like to thank you Nadine, Eric and Peter for your advice so far, I'm so glad I could join somewhere where I can get constructive feedback on my situation.

    Nadine, I'll try and get one of the photos up at some point today for everyone to see what happened - it isn't pretty whichever you look at it unfortunately.

    Sadly, I've been torn on that same subject of the money in same way Nadine and Eric have discussed it. He's my best friend, and I guess in hindsight I agree with Peter's point 2: 'he did it for a friend and never should have' because look where it got me. It was clearly something I thought early on would be mutually beneficial, where I'd gain experience/testimonial, and he and his bride would gain a good set of photos. I made the mistake of not treating it like a business transaction, in that I had not drawn up a contract clearly stating where my responsibilities as a the photographer, and his responsibilities as the client begin and end. I simply made the blind mistake of thinking 'oh it's for a friend, so everything is very relaxed'.

    Eric is completely correct - I never presented myself as a professional from the very start, so I still strongly feel that the demands being made are unreasonable. Peter also mentions 'I'm making a huge assumption but most of the time, people "hire" a friend because they want to save money and put no value on the photography until the day they get the shots back.' - which I think is much more of a fact that an assumption, and is clearly what has happened here.

    I've agreed to give the full £200 back and all of the original shots, but before I do it, I wondered if I may ask 2 questions:

    - I agree with Peters point on writing up an agreement relinquishing myself of any further responsibility after handing over the photos (but I'm also now going to be giving back the money as well). Can anyone give me any guidelines on what such an agreement should contain or what I should write in it?

    - I want to make sure that this never happens again, and I would like to write up a contract for any future photography services I supply. Can anyone provide any guidance on what may need to be written in such a contract or if there is a suitable template out there?

    My friend wants to keep the friendship going considering we've known each other for 9 years, and to be fair the bride has been channelling her feelings through him mostly. I sort of wish he would have stood up to her, because he's constantly said that he understands where I'm coming from entirely, yet the random messages were still coming through from the bride on Facebook.
    Thank you all again, you're all fantastic and I value your feedback very much.
  111. Max--I will e-mail you later. I have an example of such a contract (agreeing to end a disagreement).
    As for regular contracts, do your research. There are some you can get for free online but of course, the question of the contracts being any good is a concern. I use a variation of a template I purchased.
    How you handle trying to keep a tarnished friendship going is entirely up to you.
    When you post your example, remember to block out any faces. I'm just interested in seeing the 'red glare'.
  112. Do NOT send them all the photos!! Never!! If they're mad, as it certainly sounds like it, they'll use the bad throw -away shots to flame you.
    Send them this - Digital photography has opened the door to capturing unlimited images of a wedding. As you can imagine that includes the good and the bad. I carefully go through all the images captured and filter out the blinkies, blurries, and anything unflattering to the bride, groom, and guests. I then process the edits on the ones that are released to the gallery. Anything shot that didn't make the gallery did not meet my standard of quality and does not get processed for public viewing. If you wanted all of the pictures taken, you should have brought this up before the wedding and I would have told then to find another photographer.
    Good luck!
  113. Reading this story/event/nightmare reminds me of a saying I learned is true.
    "If you loan a friend $20 and you never see them was worth it."
    Look to peoples actions to determine their character. You now know their character. Let them fester in their own world and move on. Let it all go and if they do threaten you again, press charges against them.
    They are not worthy of your time or company. Sorry friend, at least you know now.
  114. I see this was a year ago, but what was the outcome? I hope that you've learned the MOST IMPORTANT lesson. ALWAYS HAVE A CONTRACT. Friend or not. ALWAYS HAVE A CONTRACT. When there is any money exchanged for services, the details, expectations, guarantees must ALWAYS BE IN A CONTRACT. That being said, give them the detritus photos, who cares? And stop parking cars, your not the parking attendant!
  115. Ed, we never heard from David Ross again. It sort of leaves it up to the imagination.
  116. Hello ya'll! I am here! I did not go away. Yes, I've learned my lesson. ALWAYS HAVE A CONTRACT. Ah ha, and no parking cars! I swear to bleep, I still can not forget that moment; parking a Jaguar while the bride and groom are walking down the aisle! Next month, I am photographing my cousins wedding, all for free this time. No money. No contracts. No expectations. The bride and groom just know I am showing up for the wedding and they asked a few photographers to take photos of their wedding. Nothing official. After what happened before, however, I am still trepidatious. I am building my own website right now and I will only take money for photography work once the client accepts the terms and conditions. I will keep all of you up to date. Thank you for your support, love, and understanding!
  117. "No expectations."

  118. Good question. My cousin lives in L.A. and I live in NYC. I was invited to the wedding but I was not sure I could go until recently because of work. The bride's brother is a bona fide professional photographer and is taking the lead. I will just be there for back-up along with a couple of other photographers. Still, nonetheless, I will post photos of my work.
  119. Hi Dave, wow, you came back and are alive. Hadn't been on this thread since March 2014. As far as the second shooter in LA. Being the second shooter kind of takes the pressure off, relax, get the best shots you can. Glad to hear you are OK.
  120. Whoa, this one hit me between the eyes when I went to last page and Nadine was on the top of the page. She is in my photos every time I drag a shutter or pull out the softar filter. David, looks like you learned the lesson. As a Dr. Laura listener from farm country once said, some folks learn from books, some from other people, but some folks have to pee on the electric fence themselves.
  121. This was a very useful thread. I will now update my photography contacts with a clause explicitely outlining my role as a photographer and should the requests from the wedding party deviate too far from this, the contact will be voided with no refunds. Asking the photographer to park the car seems to indicate that the wedding party lost sight of whom they hired. If they can't hire a valet to park the cars, they can downgrade that jaguar rental.
  122. Even after these last few years, this is very difficult for me to let go of. Yes, the Jaguar parking situation was the red flag for me... well, that and the fact they said they just wanted a photographer to take a few pictures here and there, since this was their second wedding and all. Photography? Not so important. Yeah, right... oh, and of course since they expected me to take photos for free since we were FRIENDS! Sure we were.
  123. New to this site, mostly because of this thread which I somehow stumbled upon. Just curious to know, what happened in the end with that story? you sue them? If you have mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread, tell that too. I will check :)
  124. No, I did not sue them. The groom physically threatened me at my place of employment and I did not want to risk my job over this. I have not seen the bride and groom since this incident and I hope never to see them again. So that's the update.

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