Hasselblad H3D 31MP vs Leica S2

Time for me to make the next step up in unnecessary overpriced camera gear. Here's my choice:

-an ex-demo Hasselblad H3Dii 31MP for well under USD20k incl lens

-wait for the Leica S2

 

Any tips or thoughts? I mainly shoot outdoors- a mix of people, nature and architecture. And I sometimes hike with

my equipment.

 

And before anyone tells me, I know its a huge waste of money. I drive a budget car. I fly economy. etc etc. One vice

remains however.

 

All input appreciated!

You will need a glass bowl to answer this one.

 

If your purchase can be delayed a couple of months wait for the S2 to arrive and watch how it performs.

In the meantime Hasselblad H series cameras will become cheaper, no doubt about that.

The S2 was promised before the end of the year to make a nice present inder the Christmas tree no doubt.

In general principle, you are better off with a camera which has a tried and true development history (Hasselblad) than a new entry to the marketplace which has not actually hit the street. If you need parts or service, Hasselblad has a well-established organization which is likely to be around indefinitely. H-series digital cameras are the gold standard in commercial photography. There is a lot of used equipment around, in case you balk at spending $5000 apiece on lenses.

 

I get nervous when a famous marque dabbles in medium format, as did Contax a few years ago. The Contax was a sophisticated camera with outstanding ergonomics and Zeiss lenses, yet faded away after a brief fling. Leica has a faithful following who collect or like to be seen carrying this label. They appear to be pandering to this following with the S2. The photographers who actually used Leicas to make a living are past retirement age (or past caring).

 

If you haven't noticed, the H3 with lens and back is twice the weight of a loaded D3. There is no way to dangle a medium format SLR from a neck strap with any degree of comfort or convenience. The standard 80mm lens is the lightest of the lot - shorter and longer lenses weigh 2 pounds each (or more). My "V" kit backpack with 5 lenses, two bodies and "stuff" weighs about 35 pounds. Don't forget you will need a sturdy tripod to do justice to this camera. If you travel or hike to take pictures, then go for it. Medium format digital has a dynamic range and (in this case) resolution well beyond anything you find in a small format DSLR. On the other hand if you take pictures incidental to hiking, you will quickly tire of this camera.

The Leica S2 is scheduled to be released in summer of 2009.

I think the depth of your pocket is more at issue than this lens or that package.

 

With the US dollar in the toilet in relation to the Euro, the S3 is projected to cost ~€30K ~$40K for the body only.

 

Leitz Optics have always vastly outperformed anything Fuji, Hassy's new optical supplier, has produced. You will get what you pay for.

 

You might consider the new Rollei/Sinar/Leaf Hybrid MF as a better value for your money at this time.

The H3DII31 is a camera that is available today, with a full lens line-up that is available today. It has a proven track record. Additionally, on the horizon is a new zoom lens and their new tilt-shift adapter, the HTS. Their new software Phocus has already been released for Mac and soon to be released for PC.

 

To me the choice is clear, but if you want more insight I suggest visiting: http://www.luminous-landscape.com and perhaps posting the same question there. Good luck with your choice and be well.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Derek Jecxz

 

http://www.jecxz.com

The S2 will not be 30,000-40,000 euro, that's for sure. They have said it will be competitively priced compared to the

mid-range cameras from the medium format digital makers. They have targeted between 15-20,000 dollars (that is from

Andreas Kaufman, CEO of Leica) for the kit. If you can wait, the H3D-31 will come down in price substantially -- probably

down to 13,000 for demos (if you look carefully). The S2 will not be out until next summer, and probably not "fully

released" (meaning you can easily go to a dealer and pick up a full kit) until next Christmas. That said, I think Leica has

really hit the ball out of the park with this one, we'll see about price, but the system itself looks phenomenal. I would

disagree that it is geared towards their faithful -- they are clearly going at the professional MF digital market. I suspect

the lenses will be better than any other medium format maker (even Schneider and Zeiss), though they will be 3000-5000

dollars each. More for the specialty lenses (super wides and super telephotos, perspective control). But I think it will be a

great solution for the type of work you are doing -- it is quite small, as said, the lenses will be amazing, and 37

megapixels with those lenses will be more than enough resolution for almost any use imaginable.

I would really take a look at the Sinar Hy6-65 which is only €12K at the moment. This is the same sensor as the Hasselblad you are looking at, but there some real advantages. The Sinar back is the only MFDB which processes JPEGs internally, which is a real time saver. It is also the only back to generate DNGs internally. So you can open the files directly in the raw processor of your choice (Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, RSP, etc). Another huge time saver.

It also has the highest definition LCD of any MFDB - a 3" VGA (640x480) screen, same as the Nikon D3. The Hy6 camera itself offers advantages over the Hasselblad such as faster (and arguably better) lenses, faster flash sync available, more lenses available, you can just rotate the back to switch orientations, not the whole camera. Better ergonomics, etc. See http://www.dcviews.com/press/Sinar-Hy6-65.htm

As a huge fan of Leica and Hasselblad (and owners of much more of the latter than former), I'm going to vote for the Leica S2. Its a new system which correctly balances the interests of size (just a little bit bigger than a small format DSLR), performance (37 megapixels with reasonably sized pixels to match the new undoubtedly amazing lenses and provide optimal picture quality) and practicality (phenomonal ergonomics, autofocus and central shutters). Hasselblad designed the H1 at the perfect time -- a 645 system which easily bridged the gap into the digital age. But is actually now quite big and heavy for a top-end digital camera (because it was designed for medium format film) and while very forward thinking at the time, it looks fairly dated compared to the new Leica design (although Hasselblad was very forward thinking at the time). Part of the problem is that Hasselblad went to a closed system having to fight a very difficult economic environment (can't blame them for that) and had to leave the V-system somewhat behind (no compliants). I personally love the V system (200 series) and some of the very special lenses they made for it. The new Leica S2 looks to continue on with that tradition more than the H series...

Very helpful. Thank you everyone. I hadn't considered the Sinar but will look at that too.

 

A final question: will the Leica be future-proof without a changable back? Or will it be so good that the future will take 20 years to arrive? And is it a mistake to buy a Hassy back that has a smaller sized sensor than what appears to be the "new standard size" on their latest backs?

 

Once again, thanks.

Alan,

 

Given the laws of physics (diffraction), a lens of a certain size will only be able to resolve down to a certain pixel

size. With pixels of 6 microns each, the lens for the Leica S2 will have to clearly and cleanly resolve down to

80lp/mm. That is really the current practical limit of performance (a very high performance indeed) for a lenses of the

sizes envisioned for the Leica S2 lens line-up. (Note that 6 microns is also the pixel size of the new Phase One 60

megapixel back for medium format which is a challenge that frankly only very few medium format lenses will really be

up to -- the Rodenstock HR lenses being one of the few). As such, for a camera and lens the size of the S2, you

won't get any better performance. You then have to ask yourself is 37 million pixels enough? For the type of the

work the S2 was envisioned for, I would comfortably answer that in the affirmative.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

The Hasselblad 31MP back is only slightly smaller than the "normal" 37x48mm sensor size. It has a cropping factor of 1.2 vs. 1.1 for the larger rectangular backs. The effect on pixel size is trivial.

 

Is it important to have interchangeable backs? Consider that an Hasselblad digital back will work on a 40+ year old camera body and lenses are completely forward and backward compatible, I'd say that speaks well for Hasselblad. Consider too the persistent speculation (in vain, I surmise) that Leica will replace the sensors in their M8's when the time comes. Leica simply doesn't have the resources to carve out a new market considering the competition, let alone promise obsolescence-proof technology.

If you're interested, KEH has one or two used H3D31's in stock. It's a good way to save 7 or 8 thousand dollars if that's the way you end up going.

Thanks Edward.

 

I'm leaning towards the H3D31 but am going to wait a few months as I'm sure (or at least hope) prices will fall even further

Isn't it 'interesting' to see how Leica - the compay that made the miniature format popular, telling us that we do not need larger formats - has now finally admitted that - what we all knew all along - size does matter, and that too small is just too smal?<br>;-)

<p>One major factor that no one has touched upon is a style of shooting. If you've ever used a waist level finder for composing, you'll know it's supreme benefits over eye level finders, which are like looking through a peep hole. The Hasselblad offers a WLF, whereas images of the Leica hint at a non-removable prism, so no WLF option. Tripod work especially sees the benefit of WLFs.</p>

<p>I suspect that the Leica lenses might be better than the newer Hassy lenses, but I also know that you could buy a Hassy, digital back, spare lens, and some good lighting equipment for the cost of the 'basic' Leica kit, and the extra stuff from the Hassy will definitely take better photos than camera alone.</p>

<p>Or if you've got the spare cash, do what I would do: get the Hassy for large studio prints, and a Leica M9 full-frame for carrying. If I had the scratch, the M9 would easily be my go-to camera. For a guy that likes to shoot in the 2.8-5.6 aperture range, nothing beats Leica.</p>

<p>One year on, and the S2 is yet again postponed.</p>