sid_sharma Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I post this weird question because I know a friend, a local pro photographer, who was attacked by a streetperson, high on crystal meth this past summer. My friend was trying to photograph a City sponsored event at a City park, when this bum, high on meth demanded "turf-money", and then violently attacked my friend. (My friend is not exactly the kind of guy who is into fighting, he a sensitive, artsy kind of guy.) He was able to get away from this violent confrontation, and avoid being severely hurt, only because he was able to hit his assailant a few times over the head with his Nikon F4s, stun the assailant, and run to find a cop!!!! The F4s was none the worse for wear after it was used as weapon - in fact, it seems to be working just fine since. My question is this - has anyone had a similar experience using a Leica? I wonder how a Leica with a 50mm Summicron would fare under similar circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jean3 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Sid, given the weight and form of the leica, it should be very effective. But - that really depends on your combat technique and experience. Generally, I would advocate to run instead of beginning a fight with people who will be, in general, more ready to use violence and have all experience they need to do so. Think about it - I prefer losing money or equipment, instead of jeopardizing my health or even life.. Jean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john15 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 As a weapon, the Leica has good mass for its size but would probably need a CLA or, at least, a rangefinder adjustment if you clobbered someone with it. you'd be better off with a Speed Graphic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert knapp md Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 An interesting question. I have used my tripod on several occasions in Europe as a defense weapon against gypsies. They send the children, literaaly like a pack of locust to harass their "prey" and hope that one of those little hands will succeed in prying away your wallet. A tripod, with the ball swinging works wonders. In my experience, the tripod doesn't scare them. It is only when you actually hit one of these wretches that the rest realize that you are serious and they take off in search of a more vulnerable victim. The police, in France at least, are so inured to these gangs and the inability of French justice to either lock them up for assault or larceny, or deport them, THAT they simply look the other way. Therefore, the gangs are more brazen. I have even been attacked during the summer days in front of the Louvre in front of policemen who are less than helpful. Again the swinging tripod works wonders and I have even been complimented on one occasion by a "flic" on my "technique". I guess this is an inherent advantage for slr users who are tripod dependent. With my RF, I guess that I would punch and kick. Hitting a thug over the head with a camera or lens seems a potential waste of fine equipment to me. BTW, should you ever draw blood, make sure you clean the area or camera/tripod IMMEDIATELY with water followed by alcohol. If your skin is broken, wash with water and alcohol and see a physician. If you have already been vaccinated for Hepatits A and B you are probably safe but Hepatitis C and HIV contamination remain remote possibilities, so see or call your physician at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_schwartzreich Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 The trigger on an Abrahamsson Rapidwinder is probably lethal if used skillfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles barcellona www.bl Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Dr Al, I thought clorox was the preferred disinfectant of choice for those types of diseases? Anyway... on to the point. In 1976, I needed to rescue a gal from a house in North Lauderdale. The basic scenario was she was locked inside, barred windows, locked doors. She did manage to get a message or two out, and thats how I tracked her down. I remember it like it was yesterday - was able to get the bathroom window bars off, and then... I used my camera to break and clean out the bathroom window. Nikon F2 with motor and 80-200 Nikkor. It did a dandy job of getting the window save enough for her to crawl out (it was one of those half size "strip" windows. Bastard never went to jail that I know of, but neither did he chase me down. No, I'm not a cop, just crazy at times.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver_s. Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I've only been attacked by a neurotic swan who wanted to eat my camera's neck strap. Does that count?<p>Albert, thank you for the information you contributed. Most people forget they're unlikely to escape a fight without injuries.<p>Some advice: do <b><i>not</i></b> try to hit someone over head, <b><i>ever</i></b>. You're extremely vulnerable while your one hand is over the head and are extremely likely to cause permanent damage to the opponent. No judge likes that! The <i>cojones</i> are a better target. (Women are vulnerable in the "same" area, in case a female punk goes at you.)<p><i>A fast attack is better than a heavyweight attack</i>. You're better off using a mini tripod as a kubotan than using a Leicaflex as a mace.<p>A monopod is an excellent fighting stick, provided yours is an aluminum one (the carbon fibre ones break too easily) and is <u>light</u>. ¡The ones for 600mm lenses make bad weapons!<p>One of the very few reasonable self-defence handbooks I ever discovered is John Wiseman's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585740608/qid=1040823776/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-1411697-5212154?v=glance&s=books">SAS Self Defense Handbook</a>.<p>And: practice, practice, practice, practice more, practice even more, practice until the techniques are hardwired in your brain, practice much more, and some day you may know them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I'm one hundred percent with Jean. Most people who are likely to physically attack you are well equipped for violence and the best thing you can do is run away or avoid confrontation. If you have to hit them, then anything will do, Leica or otherwise. These days, the people most likely to attack me are carrying M16's, so it's a real losing proposaition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug herr Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Only against an alaskan tree squirrel, frantic to get out of my cabin. I spent the next hour cleaning the piddle off my 400mm Telyt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert_smith Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I was able to kill a savings account with a Leica M6. It wasn't pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles barcellona www.bl Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 LOL.... I guess we've all been able to "kill" some time photographing too. Something not mentioned is situation avoidance. Better to avoid situations than run OR fight. I'm no expert on this, but I've always thought if you act as if you know where you are and where you're going, act like you belong and have some confidence, AND be alert of your surroundings, you'll be less of a mark. Thinking a bit, I suppose its hard to appear as anything but a tourist if you have a few Leica's hanging from your neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daved Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Actually I have a concealed carry permit and would use a GLOCK. Much more effective and at a $1.00 a round much cheaper. There would only be one story in court. In twenty years of carry I have drawn once. I was about to become the victim of road rage. (he ran a yeild sign) Once the laser sight hit his chest he started begging for his life. He got back into his car and took off. Lasermax saved the day. For more info on Glock go to www.glocktalk.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 One day, years ago my cat (a Burmese - all black and very evil looking) was advancing on me for the pounce. A skillfully tossed Leica plastic lenscap (from a 35 Summicron if I remember correctly) distracted her long enough for me to make my escape. She played with it for days...I think she still has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 There have been a few times over the years when I've taken a wrap of neckstrap around my wrist and started swinging an M Leica in circles over my head while loudly explaining what their head would look like after a couple of pounds of brass and glass made impact. The important thing is to appear confident and a bit the madman. Most punks get away with what they do through intimidation. Confronting someone who doesn't act intimidated is not part of their plan. It's probably something they've never experienced! No, I've never actually found out what that impact would do my camera. I'm sure it would be cheaper to fix than to replace all the stuff I had with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david11 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I agree with Dave D. If you are a responsible citizen and are capable of doing so, use your Leicas for photography and get a concealed carry permit and carry a sidearm. In most of these United States, a person has the option of defending his life with lethal force. The police cannot protect you from all of the pathological societal vermin. As a victim of a violent crime and gun-toter, I am willing and able to protect myself and others from bad guys. Only bad guys with hostile intent need worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h_osterholm Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 This is a SLIGHT segue from the story line, but there was a case here with a woman who shot her boyfriend, or whoever, nine times with a semi auto pistol. When the judge asked her why she shot him nine times, her answer was that that was all the bullets she had. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 David, just wondering if you carry your weapon at all times, even walking around seemingly innocent environments. It's kind of a frightening situation to me to imagine people I encounter in every day situations carrying concealed weapons. I'd hope this isn't the norm, unless people find themselves in particularly rough neighborhoods. Otherwise although you may be possibly safer it seems to me an extreme way to live your life, in fear and mistrust of your fellow human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 On the other hand, if you were a past victim of violent crime, I could see how it would turn your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 No, I don't believe i've had to defend myself much since i don't do the city shooting thing too often. But, my monopod would be great, as would my EOS 3 w/ grip (I have bopped someone in the shoulder before in jest). I usually carry a Spyderco Endura around when I think it might be handy, basically whenever i'm photographing. But I'm not a knife fighter and it wouldn't be too good against a gun, or tripod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Bob, as a fellow cat owner, never toss anything too pricey to a cat to distract them. You might never see it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Being from Canada I must admit I don't understand this mindset. Handguns here are only allowed on a firing range and all firearms must now be registerd. In Edmonton, where I live we had a bad year last year for murders. In a city of nearly 1 million we had, I think 14 homicides, only of which 4 or 5 involved handguns. Compared to the U.S. in which some large cities measure their firearm related deaths in the hundreds I'm at a loss to see where this (everyone having the right to carry a sidearm) is such a good thing. I know I'll get flamed by some of our American forum members but is your precious Leica really worth someones life. If you can actually say yes to this I truly feel sorry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahe_sahakian Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Some have suggested that a Leica-R is a better weapon due to its mass, but if you are a small person like yours truly a handgun may be a little more effective, I am a Texan and in fact our ex governer insisted that all citizens should carry a handgun, just in case, now, can you argue with that? Thanks, Vahe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob soltis Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Thanks, Doctor, for the reminder about infection. As for the GLOCK, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h_osterholm Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 No flame intended, but NYC has the toughest anti gun laws in the nation, and they rank pretty high on the list of gun related deaths. The carrying of concealed weapons is not something that 'everybody' does. You have to get a permit, which calls for a back round check. Drug and alcohol effected drivers kill far more than guns. Sorry for getting away from the Leica and it's proper usage. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 HC-B always carried his Leica attached to a wrist strap. When attacked, he would "throw" the camera as hard as he could at his assailant's face. Apparently this was always successful, and of course he never lost a camera either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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