Hartblei vs. Arax for 88cm-mlu

ok, my Salyut started exposing unevenly and I have to get a replacement.

I think I'm going to get an 88CM-MLU but which modification to go with? I hear

both vendors build good cameras, and both vendors sometimes build lemons...so

any advantages of one over the other? The reason I'm going to get the

88cm-based body is because they're NEW! I've read that the older 88's look like

they might be broken used cameras that were repaired.

As far as I can tell Hartblei is cheaper - the "kit" comes with 2 NT backs for

about $550 shipped, while the Arax kit comes with 1 back doesn't include

shipping, and has a cheaper prism for that price. Warranties and shipping costs

look to be about the same. The bodies by themselves are also more expensive

from Arax. The pictures appear about the same too - except for the "Arax" label

- I was starting to wonder if one buys from the other and re-labels them because

the MLU levers look identical, and that's not a factory part, and the modified

lens mounts look identical as well.

I'm not really concerned about the "extras" - I already have a TTL spot prism

and several NT backs - all I really care about is getting the best and most

reliable body - is there a clear advantage to one over the other? I've

corresponded with Gevorg from Arax and he seems like a very nice guy, and I'm

inclined to buy from him, but I thought I'd ask for some opinions before I buy.

I KNOW that the Kiev's are not the most reliable med. format cameras out there,

but if I want to shoot 6x6, and have access to cheap, decent lenses, this IS the

way to go.

A good assembled KIEV 88 is a thoroughly reliable medium format camera!

The negative image of the KIEV 88 cameras, comes generally from some "basement manufacturers", which buying the materials used from flee markets etc. and paint them and sell them as new. Don't buy cheap!

Cheers

well I wouldn't consider either Arax or Hartblei "cheap", and I've seen their name around enough to make me thing that even if they ARE "basement manufacturers", they do good work. I doubt that any of the Kiev re-builders have a production line, but I think that if I buy a camera that's currently in production I'm less likely to get one that has had a long history.

Hartblei says their 88CM's have production and modification dates within the last year.

<i>The pictures appear about the same too - except for the "Arax" label - I was starting to wonder if one buys from the other and re-labels them because the MLU levers look identical, and that's not a factory part, and the modified lens mounts look identical as well.</i><p>

The Kiev 88CM is made in the Kiev Arsenal factory including the lens mount

this is the body that is bought by Arax and hartblei and they improve them.

<p>

That is why they are so similar.<p>

erwin

Hi Erwin, sorry, I must smile about the content of your sentence, that these two kitchen-manufacturer "improve them"!

Cheers

I took a look at both sites and there are some differences, like the Arax is standard in black, includes caps for lens and body, lanshood, bag and cable release. While at Hartblei the black version and caps are an option, there is no bag, lenshood or cable release but you get a prism and extra back. I have a feeling that if you put everything next to each other it will be more similar. So it boils down to what of that is important to you.

I don't know how you compared postage but both send from Ukraine so it will be similar. Arax asked $25 to proces the credit card while Hartblei didn't (I have ordered at both).

Both made an equally good impression on me. Had not yet any need for warranty so I cannot comment on that.

Arax said that paypal is 5% more, while 2checkout is 5.5%. This is understandable as credit card companies charge for processing transactions. At least Arax gives you the option of sending cash if you want to avoid paying the extra charge. Also, I thought that Hartblei was Czech, but shipping is still very comprable.

I'm really tending towards the Arax camera - Gevorg seems like a very nice and knowledgable guy, and I'm talking directly to the owner and guy who will likely be doing the work. I didn't get that impression from Hartblei. I'm sure the work is good, but I like the personal touch.

The problem with the black camera - it looks cool, but all of my current accessories won't match so I'll end up with a black camera body, and chrome prism and film back - yeah, that'll look REAL cool!

Arax's 88CM-MLU body is $399, while Hartblei's is $305, but Hartblei does charge extra for a focusing screen upgrade and black color (which would raise the price to $350). They also list cloth shutter as an option, although I'm pretty sure that the 88CM's come with a cloth shutter from the factory so that might be a typo, unless they take brand new 88cm's and rebuild them with metal shutters.

<i>Hartblei can use Hasselblad back. This is a big plus.</i>

<br><br>

only the older 1006/1008 models based on the 88, NOT the new 88CM's, and then, only if you pay extra to GET the Hassy compatibility.

<br><br>

Realistically, I won't be using Hassy backs on this camera - the NT backs are easier to load and are less prone to light leaks, and from what I've read, the Hassy backs have the same light leaks the old Kiev backs do - at 3x the price.

<br><br>

If I'm going to get Hasselblad backs, I'll just get a Hasselblad...and since my Pentacon lenses won't fit, I'm more likely to get a Mamiya or Bronica anyway which will take the Pentacon lenses.

It may be different now, but up to a few years ago all three companies purchased and

modified already existing/assembled new cameras. If there was a problem your

returned camera was swapped for another (which may have issues of its own). The

new-style backs are supposed to be a noticeable improvement. I decided against the

88 when I came to the conclusion that the sellers don't repair them, and I couldn't find

a camera repair person who could or would. If you proceed down this path I believe

that Arax has the better reputation. I believe the third importer is Kiev USA. Good

luck and have fun. Jim

well, I ended up getting a Hartblei-modded 88CM-MLU from KievCamera on ebay. I've bought things from him before without incident and the price was right. I know he doesn't fix them, but I can just get a replacement if it doesn't work.

It appears that I will eventually move to another more reliable camera that can use Pentacon lenses - likely the Mamiya 645, unless I can find a similar Hassy-shaped 6x6 camera. If this camera lasts until I can buy a Mamiya, I'll be happy. I've read about many people who use these Arax/Hartblei cameras for years without problems, and due to the nature of the internet, you always read more nagative reports than positive because people who have working cameras don't spend as much time on the internet trying to reserach what went wrong and venting about it - they're out shooting.

thanks for the suggestions everyone!

Hartblei has many different meanings. I bought a Hartblei (Hassy back) camera from Mike in Atlanta which is quite good. But the focusing screen was dark. I ordered a screen upgrade from Arax, which is brighter.

The main problem with Mamiya approach is the stop down metering. So I use an Exakta 66 as a second camera instead.

One benefit of Hasselblad compatibility is it has the 220 film back option. I read somewhere that WalMart can develope 220 slide very cheaply.

As for digital back, I think both will work as long as the synch speed is under 1/30. I tried a finish eye with CFV on my Hartblei. The purple fringe was very very high. But the result with 50MM, 80MM and 120MM lenses come out very good. The dealer told me that I can tape an ND filter in front of the CCD glass to keep all shutter speed under 1/30 sec.

I don't meter through the lens anyway. I occasionally use the TTL meter just to verify my exposure (it tends to only be accurate right around EV 14-16 @ 100 ISO). For the most part I've learned to eyeball EV's and use a mechanical computer to determine exposure, and I do carry a handheld meter (Gossen Digisix) just in case.

I bought a focusing screen from KievCamera a while back and thought it was significantly better than the standard Salyut screen. I had no trouble focusing at night when I was doing exposures lasting minutes. I'm pretty certain that the Hartblei uses the same screen.

220 is nice, but I really haven't found myself limited or inconvenienced by only have 12 exposures. It's not like I'm shooting events. Most of the time I'm either shooting landscapes durring my hikes or planned photo shoots and now that I have 3 backs to work with, it'll be even less of a problem.

The Mamiya digital back is VERY intersting to me - it's the only one (or so they say) with a user-removable IR filter so you can easily convert the back for IR photography and back again. If i were to get into color or IR photography - I'd do it in digital, but silver B&W is special somehow - I just can't give it up.

As for digital backs, I am interested in the ones with user adaptable interface for multiple MF systems. Only Sinar and Hasselblad (Imacon) backs offer this important feature.

I tested the Hasselblad CFV on Hartblei, but unfortuantely the back has to be triggered with a flash-sync cable only, and under 1/30 sec.

In digital age, a 6x6 camera with a 48x48mm CCD will be perfect, as you don't have to turn around the heavy camera on tripod. Focus will be easier and more accurate as one can more often place the main object in the split-image center spot, and crop later. Also, one can use the waist finder to reduce the camera weight. Of course, others can always argue that a 48x48mm CCD will be so expensive to produce that 48x36mm CCD will save the cost siginificantly.

Another good solution could have been to send your Salyut to Arax, for a full

revision, Shutter, flocking, grond glass, mirror lock-up and so on.

Wal-mart labs are pretty well equiped for film developping, I saw it in Quebec

recently. Just ask them. ;)

Also, about ground glass, it is brighter, and allows better accuracy in the center, but

I'm not convinced of this improving when the subject gets off the center splitted

zone, or when you have to focus animal body hair, microprisms could have been the

way between the two others, but I've never heard about it.

<p>After much consideration I bought the Arax CM/MLU from Gevorg in Ukraine. The camera is indeed a KIEV 88 upgraded with mirror lock up and other improvements. Overall, I would say it is a very nice camera with much improved reliability than the Kiev88. There are no apparent differences between the Arax and Hartblei, making one suspicious if they were built under the same roof.<br>

I have done over 35 rolls of slides using this camera and have made some really nice pictures, apart from some which was ruined due to operator faults (my problem).<br>

The beauty of this system is I could buy Russian/Ukraine lenses for a bargain. The Arsat 45mm, Arast 80mm, the Kaleinar 150mm and the Jupiter 250mm are nice and great performers. I also compliment this system with the Pentacon Six lenses trio, the 50mm, 80mm and the 180mm. There are no issues using all these lenses with the Arax, which means the mount precision is good.<br>

I traveled Europe recently with the Arax CM/MLU with 45mm and 80mm. I had the 45mm mounted most of the time. All the slides exposed correctly which means the cloth shuttle is pretty accurate.<br>

The only complain is the view finder is fuzzy round the corners. I heard from a technician that this is due to the precision of the mirror position. The technician adjusted the focusing error on the camera for me. What he did was he placed a Fresnel on the film plane and checked the image against the one appearing on the focusing screen. There was some minor errors at close focusing. The adjustment was done by adjusting the 4 small screws beneath the focusing screen. I now have the focus tweaked to infinity as well as close focusing, and can shoot wide open with confidence. I observed a similar issue on a Hartblei built 88 CM with a fixed film back. The adjustment can be done, with care and some time. The mirror is best left as it is.<br>

The Arax is highly recommended. Bear in mind, it is still a Russian camera with improved precision and reliability. Comparing with a Hassy system, this is so much cheaper and gives nearly, I mean close, to the same results. After I bought the Arax, my Hassy system is taking a long break since then. It is more fun to use the Arax than the Hassy for some reason.</p>