guests who think they are photographers...

I have noticed in the past 2 years that the proliferation of digital point

and shoot cameras has brought out the worst in wedding guests as far respect

for our job-I would be interested in hearing if anyone has taken steps to

control this matter in any way.

Thanks!

For as long as I can remember it is guests that are a main cause of lost opportunity. If I had a dollar for every shot lost due to a guest jumping in front of me I would retire. As a wedding photographer your viewed as the help so it is best to generally accept and expect that a level of rudeness will need to be tolerated.

One thing I do when someone steps in front is politely put my hand on their shoulder and nudge them in a direction to clear the view I needed. Usually they would turn, see me with the large strobe on a stroboframe and MF camera and just step aside. Today there is probably hesitation since the pro camera setup looks much like the Uncle Bob camera enthusiast who is already resentful the bride and groom did not ask him to do the photography.

Sadly it has become a real problem.

It is normal for guests to have the same Camera as me,sometimes better!

A few years ago a Hassleblad would afford you free passage.

Guests also freely talk about the Photographer as if he is deaf.

As the late Bob Carlos Clarke said "Photographers have dropped below

Estate Agents and Provincial DJ's for respect"(big respect to those 2 of course)

Yeah Rob, when I see someone with a point and shoot at a wedding, I jump on them, take the camera and slam it against the wall. Usually works well, but you have to be very fast, and maybe not stay long. lol

Seroiusly though, I feel your frustration. I made a post sort of like this one a while back. It's technology brother, and no one will stop it. The only thing that will stop technology is if people stop buying technology (digital cameras), but since we all know that's not going to happen, we are going to have to adapt and do what we can. It's all about money for those that develope the technology, and it's a "war" between the manufacturers (it's like a tennis match between them). My personal feelings on this matter is that the days for us photographers, alot of us anyway, making a living at photography are numbered. Yes, alot of people get married, but alot more photographers are coming out of the woodwork because cameras are more affordable. Technology, and lower prices, is making it possible, and very easy, for just about anyone to capture images. Then beauty/quality is in the eye of the beholder. I mean what you and I may think is bad, someone else may think it is the same as if a pro had captured it. I feel that more and more people now days feel that why should they hire a photographer for $1000-5000, when we can just buy a digital camera and a photo printer at Wal Mart and get the same results. You, I and everyone else knows that there's more to it than that, but those that are actually doing this have no clue. But what can we do? Not a lot! I can almost guarantee that within the next couple of years, photographers will be decreasing their prices dramatically and/or going back to photography being a hobby? Manufactures are no longer targetting pro photographers with high end equipment, they are targetting EVEYONE.

I would suggest developing a good relationship with your B/G and have good communication with the party when shooting formals. Be in control with direction and all eyes will be on you when doing the formals.....most Uncle/Aunt Bobs/Betty respect you if they see a commanding figure directing and orchestrating which IMO you must be during this brief time.

I have at least one nice reply for the uncle/aunt bobs/betty when they come up to me asking technical questions or asking why i do this or that. The 2nd time i'm on the move or my eye is to the eyepiece. I really don't mind what they do as long as they do it in their space. They are guests there to have fun in any way they see fit and most all story presentations i do now has Uncle/Aunt Bob/Betty in them with their new digital SLR and eye to the eyepiece. It has become part of the story that is standard now.

I like to di the group shot as early as I can after the ceremony and when introducing

myself to the assembled 70+ people, make it clear that I encourage them to take whatever

pics they want. However, I'm doing a job and please don't get between me and the B&G

during the formals.

Seems to work OK for and often they apologise for getting anywhere near my view.

Of course everbody knows that everybody else has had the same message, so maybe a

little group psychology is at play.

At the wedding 2 weeks ago, the B&G told me that the crowd was following me in and out

in waves as I was going in for close-ups and then back out again.

The only times this really bothers me is when a church puts huge restrictions on the pro but guests are free to do as they please.

Flash usage during the ceremony is not as big of a deal. I prefer NOT using the flash at this time anyway. But one recent wedding has a guest with some pretty serious pro gear in the front row using a flash. We were relegated to the back of the sanctuary and no flash.

Now ordinarily I know my images will turn out better than the guests', but I know these front-row-seat shots MAY be better than mine. This guest not only stayed out of our way, but completely avoided us the entire day. (bonus I suppose)

My thoughts (and I keep them to myself during the day), are, "wouldn't you rather enjoy this celebration live in person than constantly watching the events unfold on the back of your camera?"

Take posed pictures before the ceremony when guests aren't around. At the reception, just

make sure you have the best shot in the house. I don't think it's that difficult to work around,

and I really don't feel the need to control guests.. after all.. the party is for them to enjoy.

You know what is worst... being a guest and seeing a moment and then taking the photo, then the photographer comes right behind you and takes it... INFRONT of everyone

Cost= Priceless

(Happened to me... the bride and groom were dancing alone on the dancefloor and everyone was seated watching them. There was a mirror colomn so i quickly got up and took their reflection. A moment later the photographer (i might add is not in business anymore) came behind me adn snapped the same shot, however I didnt use the flash and a short exposure time)

I saw a great technique when i was at a wedding in melbourne at the beginning of the year. it

was basically the use of an assistant as a decoy. the decoy was acting all hot-shot pro and

was getting the reaction of bringing guests towards her and out of the way of the main

photographer. it was one of the funniest things i have ever seen - i later spoke to the lead

photog and she said she had been doing it with great succes for a number of years.

" but I know these front-row-seat shots MAY be better than mine."

No ! You saying that you don't get on the front row for the best view in the house ??

Take posed pictures before the ceremony when guests aren't around. At the reception, just

make sure you have the best shot in the house. I don't think it's that difficult to work

around, and I really don't feel the need to control guests.. after all.. the party is for them

to enjoy.

Anne,

2 points.

In the UK, the groom arrives twenty minutes before the ceremony , say, the guests arrive

before the hour and typically the bride arrives 5 minutes after the the ceremony should

have started. Are you saying in the US that the B&G come together before the ceremony.

Well I'll be darn'd.

Secondly, this thread specifically asks for "steps to control". So your advice "I really don't

feel the need to control guests", is of no use unless you explain to Robert how you get

around it. Magic dust ? :-)

I agree with may of the answers here but I have cut down on this a great deal by doing the following things.

1. At weddings where peripheral shooters are a problem I take the "missed shot" of the B/G anyway.

2. After the ceremony I show the "missed shot" to the B/G and very politely point out that that was why there is an exclusive photographer clause in my contract. I ask for a print of the shot that the shooter who blocked me took so that I may compare. (I do this via email.) The bride usually responds with those magical words of "it didn't come out." (I donﾒt actually care why she is telling me it didnﾒt come out either the important thing is to get the response.)

3. I take that response and print it and put it in a portfolio of "missed shots." At my next consultation I pull my book out and flip through the lost opportunities briefly and point this out, "this could be your wedding!" I then ask for their co-operation. I usually get it. Their response is usually, ﾓoh my god no it wonﾒt be!" In all cases tactful diplomacy is necessary but the response is usually positive. This has helped me a great deal. I hope it will help you.

Also Some food for thought as to what might be coming in the future...

http://www.gatech.edu/news-room/release.php?id=1017

If they can stop everybody elseﾒs camera and make mine work that would be beautiful.

Point and shoots aren't the problem as much as the Uncle Bob's that have cropped up

lately in greater numbers than ever before.

Last wedding I did, one fellow was sporting a D-200 with some top end Nikon glass and

was dressed all in black. He was all over the place ... including in every processional image

shooting from behind the subjects in full view. He worked that wedding like he was the

pro, and some guests asked ME if my partner could do a portrait ... meaning him, not my

actual partner.

Same wedding, different Uncle Bob ... Fuji DSLR and a freaking laptop and 4X6 printer at

the reception making prints for everyone. I kid you not.

The wedding before that, the Grandfather of the flower girl, replete with a Canon 20D,

550EX flash and Light-Sphere diffuser, snuck up and crouched behind me during the

processionals and I almost tripped over him as I stepped back to catch the shot of the little

ones. He also did a boatload of group shots and even table shots at the reception.

Wedding before that, Uncle Bob takes up the key position for the cake shot as I arrange

the couple and I have to firmly ask him to vacate the position which he does reluctantly.

Another wedding, Bride wants a wide shot of the wedding party doing the Can-Can

wearing feather boas ... a guest is in the wide shot who I politely ask to move so I can get

the shot the Bride has asked for ... she tells me to get F@#Ked and doesn't move until she

takes 5 or 6 shots with her piss-ant P&S.

I don't take it as disrespect for me as much as selfish disregard toward the wedding couple

who are paying a boatload of money to have a pro shoot their wedding.

Phillip,

I am curious as to what you put in your contract reagrding lost shots due to guest photographers? I am considering similar having been there in the past and tried explaining some yahoo bumped in front of me.

"... she tells me to get F@#Ked and doesn't move until she takes 5 or 6 shots with her

piss-ant P&S."

Well, respect where it's due Marc, that's taking control !!

Damn you, "it's her party".

:-)

Phillip, I love your idea.

I have a friend's wedding this weekend. They have hired a 4 or 5,000 dollar pro. My friend is expecting I will be taking pictures also. This is my first wedding as a guest since I have been getting into wedding photography. I've been struggling for weeks with what I will be doing. I know I will not be taking any pictures during the formals and during the ceremony I plan to get an aisle seat and stay in my seat (though I'm sure other guests will be up and about). Other than that, I just feel funny about using my D70 and sb600 and lightsphere. Or will other guests possibly have the same set-ups maybe without the lightsphere.

My friend came out and said to me he'd rather have my candids than pay for prints from the pro. I understand why, I just keep feeling bad for the pro, though if my friend is thinking that way, he will prob gather pictures from everyone else there instead of buying all the pro shots, so why not have him gather mine too.

Not sure if I'm making any sense.

I guess my point is, "what's uncle Bob to do"? aside from staying out of the way, shouldn't they be allowed to shoot also, or should they not?

Brian,

I have a standard price list that I give for any non-digitally enhanced photos. I write in that if I am not the exclusive photographer that there is a 20% price increase at my discretion on that price list. I explain to the B/G that while I hope not to exercise it I need them to understand the importance of being the only one. If they protest I review my "Missed Shots" portfolio with them. Sales skills are the key to success during this part of the consultation.

Lauren M,

"Uncle Bob will do as Uncle Bob pleases".

Depends whayt your goals are. build your portfolio, cut the photographer's income, show

your friends you're in the business ....... You run the risk of spoiling your day too.

The photographer has a big advantage in having the subject look straight at him whenever

he wants it; has a full collection of prints to complete a whole album; can take the B&G

away on his own for portraits, cake cutting, and has the bride preparation all to himself,

etc.

If he's good, the B&G will buy his album and so will many of the guests as he is the only

one with the proof presentation and distribution sorted. He's also the only one who will

offer unlimited prints as he will be expected to charge for them.

Recommend you decide what you want from the day and go get it, but avoid your own

frustration.

I can't wait to be a guest oooooohhhhh payback time!

Turn up with 5D, lighsphere on a bracket, tripod :-)

No I can't seriously say it's a big problem yet in the UK. As Gary says the B&G simply don't see each other until they meet the priest at the altar, so you have to take your chances.

But tounge in cheek ..........

You get the register signing totally to yourself mainly, then get in front of the procession forcing guests to remain in their pews or get knocked over!

When they get to the back of the congregation , pause them and get another pro only shot and also on the way out.

Pause them at the door and invite Mum and Dads to join them keeping the guests nicely in the church/room :-)

That's the main ones done so bringing the family out and releasing the others from the by now 'hole of Calcutta environment' (any SLRs will have steamed up by now) you can whisk the B&G off for private shots before leading them to the waiting car (already warmed up on your instructions) and off the reception.

Don't go to the hotel or venue but have an agreed 'stop off' with the driver, somwhere nice and photographic for the special B&G + bridesmaids and grooms if you can before arriving at the hotel.

The guests by now having quaffed a few drinks in the B&Gs absence are much more amenable to groups etc and less than sober so any non pro shots have a greater risk of focus/shake etc.

Then home for tea.

Well it works for me!

At a recent wedding that we photographed, a guest arrived with a Canon 20D, same as us.

However, she obviously was shooting on auto the entire time, using the on-camera flash. I

actually felt pretty sorry for her, that she'd invested that much money on a camera she didn't

know how to use. Why didn't she just by an Olympus? Oh well.

Thanks gary. i guess my response the the OP is "what about guests who are photographers?"

My personal goals for the day would normally be as they would have been before I was shooting weddings professionally. To have fun doing what I like to do at friend and family events and that is taking pictures. I like to take pictures both for practice and to distribute to friends and family just for fun. This is where the friend comes in as he knows I am always doing this anyway. My firends already know I'm "in the business" and definitely I DO NOT want to cut the pro's income which is why I am feeling funny about my friend saying they want my pictures instead of buying extra prints from the pro. I am sure for their $5,000, they are already getting an album and whatever else in their package. Yes, if any are portfolio worthy, I would surely use them for that also but its not my goal.

So anyway, those are my goals, but I still feel uncomfortable or funny about shooting. Maybe I should just pretend I have never professionally shot a wedding and do just what I would have done before which is take pictures.

Yesterday a young chick was riding on a bus smiling to herself. I noticed she was taking photos of me with her cell phone, then sending them to her friends and having a laugh at their replies.

I think it's a cool thing that people can share photos even at weddings, no worries man. Bringing out the worst has to happen, so let it happen in a good way.

Cheers.

Wow Marc! Can I take the exact wording of your post and make it an addendum to my contract? ;o)

<p>

I'm thinking, I'm going to bring my own sound equipment to the next wedding of which I'm a guest ... and set up my own dance floor! Maybe an ipod and boss soundwave would be enough.

<p>

<i>Gary Rowlands - Manchester, UK , jul 07, 2006; 09:34 a.m.<br>

" but I know these front-row-seat shots MAY be better than mine." <br>

No ! You saying that you don't get on the front row for the best view in the house ??</i>

<p>

I'm not exactly sure what the question here is, but as I mentioned, I was not allowed anywhere except the back of the sanctuary.<br>

Or was it light-hearted sarcasm? Because if this is the case, we've actually seriously considered placing my wife in the front row "disguised" as a guest.

<p>

This year is far worse for us regarding tougher regulations at churches. I think it's largely because many of the newcomers to the field with their lack of experience are very disrespectful during the ceremony and even after. We shot a wedding the week after a photographer posed the bridal party ON the alter. Needless to say, the efficient told us that if we so much as hiccup during the ceremony, he would interrupt the proceedings and kick us out. He told the families this too.

<p>

And it may not even be the "newbies." We're hearing from venues that B&Gs are asking friends and family members to take care of photography. Sub-newbie!

<p>

We're covering these aspects with the B&G as early as initial consultations.

<p>

It's a very tricky balance between "they're guests" and "boatloads of money." I have had to congenially say the latter out loud to a guest once. In this instance, it was just a lack of understanding. There was no self-induced-sex-act request at the end of this brief one-on-one seminar. Congeniality is always key, but sadly does not always work.

<p>

And on that note...<br>

Phillip? You're an awesome businessman for pulling off that technique! :)

Once I've sorted out the pose or whatever I try and let everyone know that I'd appreciate it if they could let me take a few of the bride and groom without distraction, then I'll give them a couple of minutes with the couple in the same pose (if the couple are happy with that) so they can get their shots too once I've finished, then we'll move to the next pose / location / whatever - it normally works fine. I've been a guest at a wedding where the photographer got shouty and "told" everyone not to take pictures - that just annoyed everyone including the couple (who told me they can barely look at their pictures as all they think of when they look at them isn't their day, but their rude photographer). So I try and be the opposite of that - less control, and more communication and mutual respect :-)

Incidentally Gary, I'm in the UK and a couple of weekends ago the couple arrived at the church together...only time it's happened to me but it does happen I guess!

I had a similar experience to Marc too - a guest with a DSLR standing behind me on every shot - almost like he had to justify his big investment to his girlfriend by copying every one of my shots. Either that or he was trying to build a wedding portfolio. I didn't find it offensive - annoying yes, because he was a distraction so there were more wasted shots than normal but not offensive.

Nothing in my life has an element of "I can do that" so much as photography (after all, we've obviously all thought that at some point) - and a lot of guests with decent cameras will look at what you're doing and think they could do it too. A part of me enjoys that challenge a lot though.