Guest vs. Professional photographer....What's the proper etiquette?

<p>Over the past year I have been immersing myself into the field of photography. I don't consider myself a professional, although that is my end goal. <br>

Over the past several months I've been working on building a strong body of work, however, my portfolio does not reflect the specific genre that I want to get into...Weddings. <br>

I've read that many people got their start my shooting weddings of relatives, friends, and friends of friends of friends. Well, I have no shortage of friends with weddings coming up....but as I said I don't consider myself a professional and I can't in good conscious agree to capture such an important day....I wouldn't want to disappoint anyone, especially good friends. <br>

Instead, I offered to unofficially "2nd shoot".....you know, take a few extra shots in addition to the professionals that they hire. <br>

My question is, what etiquette should I follow? I do know that one of the upcoming weddings already has a primary and a 2nd shooter. I don't want to step on anyones toes and I know how to stay out of the way, but I also want to take advantage of the opportunity. It could be a great learning experience and an opportunity to build upon my portfolio. <br>

As a professional wedding photographer, how do you feel about guest walking around with professional cameras and possibly encroaching on your territory? </p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

Sammie</p>

<p>Sammie asks,</p>

<blockquote>

<p>As a professional wedding photographer, how do you feel about guest walking around with professional cameras and possibly encroaching on your territory?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I dislike it a great deal. I'm used to the fact that, these days, every guest at a wedding has a camera. But most of them are pretty passive. It becomes a problem however when somebody starts to become a little more active. It is a distraction to me, at a minimum, but usually it's worse than that. Sometimes the guest photographer becomes a kind of competition. I handle it when the situation arises. But I'm grateful when I shoot a wedding where I DON'T have to deal with somebody who wants to play at being a working photographer. <br>

.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>My question is, what etiquette should I follow? I do know that one of the upcoming weddings already has a primary and a 2nd shooter. I don't want to step on anyones toes and I know how to stay out of the way, but I also want to take advantage of the opportunity.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, I would suggest that you <em>first</em> approach the main photographer. Explain your interest honestly, and ask if the photographer would mind if you took photos. You might ask if you could perhaps <em>help</em> in any way. I remember hearing one of the top wedding photographers in the world earlier this summer mention that the first many weddings he worked as a young man, he simply carried the main shooter's bags — didn't shoot at all. I've worked as an assistant to great portrait photographers and it's highly instructive just to help with the lights and watch them work. <br>

<br>

Anyway, if you want to do this properly, then be prepared for the photographer to let you know that that he (or she) does indeed mind and would be grateful if you didn't. In that case, my strong advice would be, go, be a guest and enjoy the wedding, and don't do anything that will make it harder for the bride's hired pros to do their jobs properly and without competition.<br>

<br>

Now, on the unlikely chance that the photographer says, "Why not? The more the merrier!" <em>THEN </em>I think you should ask the bride if she would have any objection. <br>

<br>

But I'll have to say, I think this is all inappropriate and NOT the way to go about it. If you really want to be a second shooter, go about it the right way. Contact photographers directly and offer your help. Shooting as a guest is something of a fantasy — not honest experience at all. You're under no pressure or obligation. You may know a bunch of the other guests. The trick to wedding photography isn't taking one or two good pictures when you feel inspired, it's taking lots of good pictures and a few great ones, and doing it while under a lot of pressure and while dealing with strangers, some of whom may not be very cooperative. <br>

<br>

Will<br>

<br>

</p>

<p>I agree with William above.</p>

<p>You can't stop people taking photos during the ceremony or the reception. But during other times of the day I handle it by telling the couples that I don't mind others taking photos during the Family shots but they have to remember that at the end of the day they hired me to take their professional photos and at times I will need their full attention. </p>

<p>I will set up the family shot and then step aside and give everyone else a few moments to capture their shots. I will then step in and say okay now can everybody please look at me and capture a shot off all eyes on me. <br /><br />The formal photos are a definet no go I need everyone's full attention and the bridal party don't want or need a gallery. <br /><br />If you want to get started then try and shoot candid moments at the ceremony and reception only anything else unfortunately you will only be getting in the professional photographers way and making his job harder.<br /><br /><br /></p>

I treasure time away from the camera. I normally never shoot friends or relatives weddings. I never bring a camera.

 

I just want to be part of the fun, eat dinner, some cake and of course some dancing.

 

In my contract it says,

 

"No other photographer professional or amateur is permitted to shoot while the photographer is WORKING. The photographer has the right to leave the event and all fees are nonrefundable." If I'm not shooting photos well I don't care if there's 10,000 shooters there flashing away.

 

So if you were taking shots over my shoulder I'm going to say something to you. If you continue I will talk to the bride and groom. This part I have done before. The couple will simply tell the person to stop shooting.

 

Here's the real issue. I'm never afraid of someone else shooting. What happens though is the couples and families, the bridal party, often have wondering eyes. So they aren't looking at me. They are looking at all of the other cameras.Well guess who gets yelled at when they see the photos and the wondering eyes? Me or the other flashers? That pretty much says it all.

 

Keep your dreams.

 

Honor the photographers creativity and learn from watching how the professionals work. You can learn a lot more by watching and not blasting off pictures. Study up on posing, the use of several lights and maybe ask the photographer if you can tag along at future events.

John, you are too nice! During the formals I really worry about time management. We often only have 20 to 30 minutes to knock out the formals in the church, temple, you get the idea.

 

It's very nice of you to allow people to take some shots.

 

Often you are also forced to shoot very fast because the reception is starting and we are holding things up for the grand entrance. Even if the bride is running an hour late it's our problem. We need to blast throught somewhere around 150 images or so.

 

The more time I have here the more photo's I can take and also do some creative artistic work.

 

Well this is part of the fun being in the wedding bizz! Why do we do this? !

<p>I would take a different approach. Instead of taking the same pictures as the pro, look for different pictures to take. Change your perspective. Perhaps take pictures from an editorial perspective?</p>

<p>Would I ask the pro for permission? IMO, I would never do that because what do you do if the pro say no. However be respectful, stay out of their way, and never pull the B&G away for your shots when the pro needs them. Most pros are not going to like you being there but in practically every wedding, there is a guest with a DSLR taking pictures so they should be used to it and they will tolerate you. Again, be respectful of them and stay out of their way and you should be fine.</p>

 

<p>Any 2nd shooting photographer who's not with the main photographer will be a distraction. And he/she will get either in the shot or in front of the shot or people will look at him and you'll get the wandering eyes. So the shots the main photographer is getting will be compromised. Not a good wedding present I'd say.</p>

<p>To snap some casual shots just like the rest of the wedding party would not be a problem of course.</p>

<p>However if the main photographer only will shoot part of the day then it would be a good opportunity to get some good shots that the main photographer will never be able to get. That would be a nice addition for the B&G and not disturbing in any way for the main photographer.</p>

<p>PS. To get experience I suggest starting to shoot events instead of weddings. Situations where there are no pro photography involved and the pressure and expectations are lower.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thank you....I appreciate all of the feedback. I do feel uncomfortable invading on the territory of the professional so I'll probably stay very low key and just take a few shots when he isn't in the room....Maybe just do a few candids for the practice. </p>

<p>Sammie, if your objective is to learn about wedding photography then why would you want to photograph the set-ups of another photographer? Basically, any shots like that would be their shots not yours anyway ... how would you build a portfolio with someone else's ideas?</p>

<p>Plus, when you try to take similar images, it distracts the subjects from the hired photographer's camera ... leading to some subjects looking at their camera and some looking at your camera. The Pro is responsible for the images and you are not ... so if the pics are screwed up, it is no sweat off your brow.</p>

<p>IMO, the first thing you have to learn is how to observe, so why not leave the "Pro" camera at home and observe how it is being done without the distractions of trying to take portfolio photos? Maybe take a cell phone to make notes with.</p>

<p>Then branch out and see if you can assist a Pro Wedding Photographer ... or if you feel more confident after observing a number of different wedding shooters and seeing the results afterwards ... maybe take a smaller wedding on your own.</p>

<p>At the last wedding I photographed, we arranged the Bride and Groom for a nice shot outside in the church garden ... we moved tables and chairs, set them in the best light, posed them carefully ... the when I went to step back to shoot there were 22 people taking the same photograph, five with Pro level cameras with speed-lights !</p>

<p>As soon as I took my shot another stepped right into my shoes and also took the same shot ... I quipped to the Groom that these images would be on Facebook before we got home that night ... they were, and the persons that took the photos didn't acknowledge that it was our talent, experience, skill, and effort that lead to the shots ... not a peep from them, just basking in the accolades for such great shots they had little to do with except for pressing the shutter button on an auto camera. Sigh.</p>

<p>- Marc</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I agreed with Marc approache. Sammie, if all you did was to shoot the setup by the main photog, all you accomplish to do is to press the button. Why not observe the main photog to learn why he asks people ot step in shades or to angle their shoulder to get a tigther group pictures? It's better use of your time than to just follow along and press the button.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Bob, Maybe were a bit laid back here in New Zealand. It is the norm here to allow 1/2 hour for family & guests followed by 2 hours for formal photos. The couple normally have a basket of drinks and nibbles and we have a relaxing time taking the formal photos and giving them some time out before the reception. </p>

Sammie: it's a bad idea. Here's why

There is so much going on at awarding forthright bride and groom already that their attention is already frayed. It seems

like a good idea but really when it's picture time they need to be free to concentrate and briefly bond with the

photographer they have hired. At best you'll either get sloppy seconds of the formats or raise the possibilities that neither

of you will get a really good portrait.

 

I know it sounds like a kind offer, but ithe reality it is a not so passive-aggressive move on your part.

 

My suggestion to you is to watch what the various pros are doing to learn the moves, what they do with light, and the way

they move and talk to people. Use your ears and eyes.

 

Wedding and portrait photography is a service industry . Even the smoothest and best organized wedding is one or two

steps from utter chaos. One thing a good wedding photographer does is help create the structure that keeps that from

happening. If art results that's a happy byproduct of being first good with understanding people and secondly of the

photographic craft. once you think you'e got a feel for how to handle yourself and your camera, lights and processing

start asking the clergy at local churches or synagogues if they know of couples that are cash-strapped that you might

approach. If there are any takers make sure both you and them understand fully what both you and they are getting into

and expect to get out of the transaction.

John, I'm moving to New Zealand!

 

Need a second shooter? lol

<p>What part of New Zealand are you moving to Bob. </p>

<p>I shot a wedding not long ago that virtually every guest had a camera and was using it. We would set a shot and 5 or 6 people would get the shot before we could get back and turn around. Horrible day the only thing to second shoot was pictures of people taking pictures of other people taking pictures of other people taking pictures of probably me.<br>

Which led us to a new business idea. Photography without a camera. We bring good video lights, pose and light the subjects and let the guests do all the photography. At the end of day we are done no post work. </p>

 

<p>One relatively non-intrusive approach would be to take a long lens and get shots from afar. That way you won't be stepping on the official photographer's toes.</p>

<p>Also, while the official photographer's setting up formal shots, you can take informal candids of the guests, kids playing, people having drinks etc. Those pics will be very valuable to the bride/groom as those shots may otherwise not have got captured at all. </p>

<p>Just thinking about this subject makes me upset. I have it covered somewhat in my contract. "It is understood that William Kazak Design is the exclusive and “official photographer”. All others taking photographs shall do so at the discretion of William Kazak Design."<br>

Part of my assessment of how the wedding is going for me is how much I am being interfered with by people with cameras. Sometimes it is not a big deal but it is always some kind of a distraction. I have had to sit down on a pew during formals until people got the idea. Are you done yet? Let me know when I can start up. It is hard enough shooting a wedding and being courteous all day. The mental focus and creative energy is flowing and so is the anxiety. Interference is abrubtly curtailing that. The creative shooting time is short enough and I am usually not able to do everything that I would like to do.<br>

I would suggest that you leave your cameras at home. You did not get the job. Let the pro shoot it.</p>

<p>As an amateur family photographer I have never been asked to stop taking pictures at weddings, but in the last few years as my equipment has improved I have felt a bit of growing tension and resentment from the hired professionals at the events. It is for this reason that I searched "guest vs professional wedding photographer" and found this rather enlightening discussion.<br>

I really appreciate the honest feedback that several professional wedding photographers have posted here and will refrain from bringing my late model prosumer DSLR camera and speed-light to our next family wedding. Although I have taken a few good pictures at close family weddings, I am not a professional and I would never want to ruin the work of the professionals who are already under enough stress as it is. <br>

I would be totally supportive of the pros that clearly spell this out at the beginning of the event for the benefit of others who, like myself just did not realize the full magnitude of the problems they were causing. As a matter of fact, I have recently had discussions with other family members about this issue and they also had no idea that the professionals see this as the disruptive problem that it is. So in closing, I would again say to the professionals don't just get upset and annoyed with all us family amateurs, please set your boundaries with others at the outset.<br>

</p>

<p>If your objective is to get into the wedding photography field then you should contact a pro and put some time as an apprentice and actually learn something. I have seen too many want be photographers shooting freely at another persons wedding only to disrupt and distract from the hired pros job. I have had guys come up to me and want to carry on a conversation about photography and techniques while I am working. Not good. Taking pictures at a wedding without permission from the bride and groom and the professional photographer is not the place to be gaining wedding photography experience.</p>

<p>When I shot weddings I loathed the fauxtographers always getting in my way, sometimes even getting mad at me for asking them to move. So disrespectful and unaware. Go shoot something else ffs.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I really appreciate the honest feedback that several professional wedding photographers have posted here and <strong>will refrain from bringing my late model prosumer DSLR camera and speed-light to our next family wedding.</strong><br>

<strong> </strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong><br /></strong>William Brown - I never had any issue with guests bringing 'prosumer' or 'professional' camera gear to any wedding for which I was engaged to cover professionally: it is not an issue about the gear.</p>

<p>However, an issue can be those person's ATTITUDES and ACTIONS - which can be very disruptive and counter productive to the manufacture and supply of best quality Services and Products to the Bride and Groom.</p>

<p>The OP's question (back in 2013) mainly was about him attending several upcoming Weddings with the aim of him making images for his own portfolio and so as to begin to present himself as a Wedding Photographer.</p>

<p>I have attended quite a few family Weddings (as a guest) and have always taken with me one of my cameras - in fact I don't really go anywhere without a camera - I doubt the engaged professional photographer at thsoe weddings even noticed that I was there, because the photos I made were mostly always never where he/she was shooting and certainly I was not ever interested in shooting over the shoulder of the professional, especially for any of the posed or set shots she/he would make - that is totally not creative - and also there is so much going on elsewhere if one really wants to make more than three or four "memory shots" of the day. <br>

<br>

WW </p>

@ William W. - You taking a few casual shots to remember the day is not exactly what the OP is talking about. Everyone

takes those types of shots. In the OP scenario he wants to do a 2nd shoot to get portfolio pictures and gain experience

shooting a wedding. A person can not gain the experience if he is not where the hired pro is. If he is not shooting along

side the pro then he is missing shots that is required.

 

If, on the other hand the OP would consider to shoot photojournalist style, which is what I would recommend. He

would not have to shoot over the shoulder or anywhere near the primary shooter. He would sell or offer himself as an additional

photographer to the main photographer, providing creative supplemental images.

<blockquote>

<p>@ William W. - You taking a few casual shots to remember the day is not exactly what the OP is talking about.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Yes Michael, that's exactly the point I was making. I was addressing the comments made by William Brown, not the OP. I was explaining to William Brown why it is not necessary for him to leave his camera at home.</p>

<p>WW</p>