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Grey Market


ed_candland1

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I was wondering, is everything at Badger Grey market and how can you tell? I thought I heard someone say it was. But somethings like the 45AX I'm thinking of buying is only about $100 cheaper than normal. If it is, it would seem like it might be better to get the AII from Robert White for the same price. If I'm not getting any factory service anway or buy a non grey market. But what's to break anyway ;-)

Thanks, Ed

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Mamiya America Corporation is the official exclusive USA importer of

Toyo view cameras (and obviously Mamiya MF cameras). I believe that

Robert White is an official importer of Toyo (and many other brands)

in the EU (although possibly not an exclusive importer). Because

Mamiya America Corporation is not owned by Toyo (nor I believe by

Mamiya Japan), there was at one time clear US import law that

protected them against gray market goods (even if the goods were

imported by a authorized dealer from another country).

 

<p>

 

There are two problems with Mamiya America Corporation enforcing this

exclusive Toyo (and Mamiya) trademark in the USA. First, if someone

buys goods from Robert White in the UK, the purchaser (not Robert

White) is the USA importer, and US Customs is unlikely to stop such

goods in single quantities from entering the US. Since the

importation of genuine goods in violation of an exclusive import

license is not a criminal violation (unlike importing counterfeit

goods), US Customs does not usually get involved.

 

<p>

 

This means that any remedies that Mamiya America Corporation could

employ to enforce its exclusive import license would be done in civil

courts by seeking financial compensation for their loss. But it is

not very practical for Mamiya America Corporation to file such

lawsuits against individual importers who buy single quantities from

Robert White.

 

<p>

 

Second, there has been recent a Supreme Court ruling that suggest

that such exclusive import licenses are not enforceable.

http://www.tradelaw.com/l'anza.htm But keep in mind that court

rulings are not always applicable to other situations (with lightly

different circumstances), and US Customs regulations are a very, very

murky area of the law.

 

<p>

 

However, since Toyo Japan relies on Mamiya America Corporation to

market (spending their own money doing so) Toyo products in the USA,

they probably want to keep their distributor relatively happy. Toyo

Japan can put pressure on Robert White to not ship to the USA by

threatening to have their import relationship in the EU terminated.

This probably explains why the Robert White web site said (up until

recently) that they would not ship to the USA.

 

<p>

 

But given the recent USA Supreme Court ruling, and since Toyo also

wants to keep Robert White happy (they probably move quite a lot of

Toyo gear), Toyo Japan has probably backed off a bit.

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Michael....finally a clear explanation of the problem. No matter

what happens, I'm not going back to paying what I used to pay when I

can pay half to Robert White and still be treated like a King.

 

<p>

 

This is about greed, I would say support Robert White since he is

the one saving us money, not just on Toyo, but on everything he sells.

They need to keep us happy most of all since we're the ones buying.

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Michael: Thanks for your posting. We in the LFF need a lawyer for

this one. Logic tells me that Mamiya's use of trademark law to

prevent users from importing any of their products from other

countries is really an abuse of trademark law, which was not intended

for the purpose of setting up exclusive import licenses. After all,

the product bearing Mamiya trademarks is manufactured by the same

firm that owns Mamiya America and Mamiya Japan. In other words, by

Mamiya's application of TM law, the manufacturer can have two

identical trademarks, one which is owned by the manufacturer in Japan

and the other by its selling branch in the US which by any other name

is virtually no other than the manufacturer itself. In other words,

the manufacturer claims that trademark law allows it to alone pass

goods from his left to its right hand. The supreme court ruling ruled

that these exclusive import practices are not enforceable. Is that

all? it should have declared them illegal, after all, they have

helped greedy manufacturers rip additional profits off US and

Canadian users. Am I wrong?

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Just to clarify a few issues from above. In situations like Toyo

where they rely on independent companies to do their marketing and

distribution outside of Japan, there is usually no such thing as

a �factory warranty.� The warranty is usually offered by the importer

(Mamiya America Corporation, Robert White, etc.) in the specific

country they import into, and is considered to be a marketing

expense. The warranty coverage can be different in each country,

especially since local laws may have some impact on the legal wording

of the warranty terms.

 

<p>

 

Obviously, the "official authorized" importer (who provides warranty

service in the local country) is able to purchase parts, manuals,

receive training, etc. from the factory, but the warranty and non-

warranty service expense is usually absorbed by the local marketing

organization (importer). Depending on what the agreement is between

the importer and the manufacturer, the factory may, or may not, be

responsible for reimbursing the importer for defective parts within a

specified timeframe. The price the importer pays the manufacturer

for the original goods is somewhat determined by how much warranty

liability the importer is assuming for themselves.

 

<p>

 

In the case of gray market goods (not Robert White, but probably

Badger Graphics on some items), the importer does not purchase from

the manufacturer, but usually from an official importer or retailer

in another country. So it is best to simply ask about (and get in

writing) the specifics of the warranty service, such as where it will

be performed and how long it usually takes. Some gray market

retailers simply replace the item (with a new or used one) if there

is a problem, since it may be difficult or time consuming to get

repaired. In these cases, you must rely on the integrity of the gray

market importer to make good on the warranty. From comments I have

heard, Badger Graphics is very good in this regard.

 

<p>

 

Some �authorized exclusive� importers such as Mamiya America

Corporation may say that they do not perform any service (including

non-warranty service for a fee) on equipment they do not import.

That is their right to refuse such service, since part of the profit

of every item they sell goes toward setting up the warranty and

repair facilities in the USA.

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Julio,

 

<p>

 

Prior to the 1998 Supreme Court case referenced above, it was

definately legal to set up exclusive importing and licensing

agreements in the USA. Many �official� importers collected civil

damages against gray market importers (usually not individuals). But

there was one major condition that had to be met to enforce the

trademark: the exclusive USA importer cannot be owned (directly or

indirectly) by the manufacturer. Therefore, Mamiya America

Corporation could (prior to 1998) enforce its exclusive trademark

license, since it is not owned by the manufacturer (despite its

name), and it filled for and received the trademark for these

products in the USA.

 

<p>

 

The justification for this has been that companies like Mamiya

America Corporation pay for all the marketing costs in the USA

(magazine ads, trade show representation, repair service, stocking

parts, etc.). They are in effect paying the manufacturer (by bearing

the cost of USA advertising and marketing themselves) for this

exclusive right to import, and they would suffer harm if the

manufacturer allowed gray market imports into the USA. The gray

market goods are usually purchased from countries that have no local

advertising and marketing support costs.

 

<p>

 

However, in the case of NikonUSA and CanonUSA (who are owned or

controlled by their Japanese parent companies) there has been no

legal restriction (at least not for quite a few years) to gray market

imports since the importer (same company as the manufacturer) was not

harmed regardless of who sold the goods to the consumer (the importer

and the manufacturer are really one and the same). That is why you

see B&H Photo sell gray market goods from Nikon and Canon (along with

the official USA goods), but they do not usually sell gray market

goods when the official USA importer is independent of the

manufacturer.

 

<p>

 

It is important to note that, the 1998 Supreme Court case

notwithstanding (the facts of every case are not identical), Mamiya

America Corporation still claims that their exclusive trademarks are

valid in the USA. Whether they could prevail in court is open to

debate.

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Quit your Bogus flagwaving, patriotism and loyalty work BOTH

WAYS!! Where's the loyalty of the distributers and vendors around

here to us, the people that keep them in business?

 

<p>

 

Explain to me how Robert White can charge as much as half of what

they charge around here for some gear and still stay in business?

What in the hell are you talking about? The countries not going down

the tubes if we quite padding the bank accounts of some folks around

here!

 

<p>

 

I had the carpet in my house replaced last year, when I was

estimates done, I two people come over to give me an estimate, one

drove an old '78 Mercedes SL, and one drove an $80,000 BMW. The

quality of the carpet, the amount of work each was willing to do, the

honesty vs the greed of these two was evident down the line.

 

<p>

 

One offered me a good quality carpet, a good installation, and

was satisfied with a small but comfortable profit, and one just wanted

to throw any old piece of shit into my house. He wasn't thinking

about schools, hospitals, or the Army, just greed, like the folks

you're trying to defend.

 

<p>

 

Paying out good hard earned money to feed greed isn't Patriotic,

isn't american, it's dumb.

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Hmmmm... Robert White does pay taxes in Britain so that British kids

can go to school, grow up to be British soldiers, and be our

staunchest allies, so paying a smaller amount for goods there does

that and leaves me money to spend locally on other things than

padding greedy distributors pockets.

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Michael: you have provided learned opinion on grey goods which

answers and clarifies issues of law and lay logic. Great to see that

the law makes sense. Your posting is valuable reference material

which goes into my computer to stay. Many thanks.

Glen: Potholes, really, in the sunny south? what excuse for them

without the deep frosts that make ours in Canada? Get Mamiya America

to create a pothole fund with their pickpocket money!

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My Point is that your local distributor contributes to your

government, and hires people that need jobs, and pays for their

hospitalization insurance, etc. etc. etc. Yes, you can make the

argument that all that is well and fine but I shouldn't have to pay

for it. The only trouble is that one could make the argument that we

should not support your employer or your business for the very same

reason and you would be out of a job and not paying the taxes we

need, etc. etc. etc. In my 30 years of photography I cannot believe

how many people I have had personally bitch to me about how expensive

photography equipment was and how they were getting ripped off. A

few had legitimate complaints (those on fixed incomes) but the

majority either smoked, or drank, had expensive SUVs, belonged to

country clubs, went out to eat alot, had snowmobiles, motorcycles,

etc. etc. etc. I am sure that my income is considerably less than

almost everyone else who is reading this, yet I have found a way to

own a hasselblad system, full set of lights, meters, light stands,

and a sinar 8 x 10 with their shutter, etc. And I purchased all of

it save for a lens or two in this country. Thats my point. Kevin

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Keep in mind than when purchasing from Robert White, USA customers

are avoiding the 17.5% VAT (value added tax) that everyone else in

the EU must pay. I imagine that the average EU resident is not happy

about that.

 

<p>

 

But the real issue at hand is the idea of the �distributor.� The

existing 3-tier supply chain model that some businesses currently use

(manufacturer/distributor/retailer) is an anachronism in the age of

the Internet. The Robert White model (manufacturer/retailer)

eliminates the middleman and significantly contributes to the

productivity of the economy. These productivity gains are measured by

the US Federal Government and are frequently mentioned by Alan

Greenspan (Chairman of the Federal Reserve) as the primary factor for

the economic prosperity of the past decade. The use of middlemen in

the supply chain adds zero to productivity measurements.

 

<p>

 

Bob Solomon of HP Marketing (USA distributor of Rodenstock, Heliopan,

Wista, Linhoff, and others) is a sometimes contributor to this

forum. In response to questions about products that HP Marketing

distributes, he often asks that we send him an email, and he will

mail us a brochure. I once asked him why HP (or the manufacturer)

does not convert the all the (very expensive full color glossy)

brochures to PDF files (or other digital format) and put them on the

Internet. His response was less than satisfactory, which is not

surprising since this would probably put him out of a job.

 

<p>

 

In a free country, Mamiya America Corporation, HP Marketing, and the

manufacturers they represent can distribute their products however

they please (within the law), but don�t expect me to pay for their

inefficiencies. Companies that cannot exploit technology and

eliminate (or significantly reduce) costs in the supply chain (e.g.,

middlemen) will eventually end up in the ash heap of history.

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Michael

 

<p>

 

I disagree in the respect that without these importers you would not

have individual camera shops handling warranty work. there is no such

thing as a free lunch. That work is paid for through your importer.

Buy from Robert White, or buy from others. Thats fine. But when the

thing breaks see what happens. Or when you need an obscure part just

run down to your local camera store and see if he/she has it in stock.

 

<p>

 

Kevin

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Kevin,

 

<p>

 

I am not sure I understand your first sentence, but I think I get the

gist of what you are saying. However, Robert White is an official

authorized importer of the goods they sell. They are also the

retailer. They also handle warranty service. Marketing of individual

brands is done via the Internet (including recommendations of

equipment made in this forum). This eliminates the middleman. The

fact that they are in the UK is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

<p>

 

I have found it much more convenient, and much more productive, to do

business on the Internet with specialists and companies that have

virtually unlimited inventories. The local shop can rarely afford to

stock every item or part, and the time and cost of traveling around

town is not trivial.

 

<p>

 

Eliminating the middleman (distributor) is not limited to import

situations. In a free society, the consumer chooses whether they want

superior service and support, or whether they want lower prices.

Invariably consumers want lower prices, but obviously there will

always be some exceptions. The companies that prosper in the 21st

century will figure out a way to provide both excellent service and

low prices.

 

<p>

 

There are companies such as Amazon.com that buy directly from

manufacturers (eliminating the distributor) and have outstanding

customer support. From everything I have heard, Robert White, B&H

Photo, Badger Graphics, and a few others fall into that same category.

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This thread seems to make RW out to be some kind of a knight in

shining armour. The fact is: RW isn't. RW is simply capitalising on

the recalcitrance of American distributors to price their equipment in

line with international pricing. The more recalcitrant they are, the

more RW gains as his prices look low in comparison. The funny thing

is they are really helping to make RW rich by being intransigent. RW

did the right thing by jumping in on e-commerce early and had the wits

about him to offer good service to boot. He doesn't have to lift a

finger as Americans do not even try to drive a bargain.

 

<p>

 

Americans get gouged, RW wins by not even trying. www.teamphoto.co.uk

also has similar 'very good' prices and service but hardly anybody

mentions them.

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Levity about potholes aside, I am bothered by one aspect of this

problem. Price differentials maintained by many US distributors are

killing local camera stores in most US cities. Large stores in NYC,

LA and other centers of extensive professional photography may

survive, but even in a large city like Houston, there isn't much left.

 

<p>

 

I would LOVE to buy products from my local dealer. I do buy many

things there, and gladly pay a premium to do so. I could save 10% or

more, plus our 8.5% tax by buying film by mail. But I will spend that

money to keep them going. I would also buy LF equipment there, if

they could come within 10-20% of prices from Badger or RW. But they

cannot, because of the pricing structure of many US distributors or

US subsidiaries of the manufacturers.

 

<p>

 

The problem is exacerbated in the US by the inability to enact a

uniform sales tax structure. This is hurting many local businesses

and tax bases, and really must be solved soon.

 

<p>

 

So I am willing to pay a resonable premium to support both my local

dealer and US distribution. What is reasonable. Clearly I would pay

10% more, probably as much as 20%. But the current premiums are 50-75-

100% in many cases. Market economics says such price differentials

CANNOT be maintained. The internet has opened a closed market. And

the US distributors cannot bury their heads in the sand and try to

protect their former ways.

 

<p>

 

Clearly this is doable. Check gray market Canon vs US Canon at B&H.

The difference is minimal, even with a very large advertising budget

from Canon USA. Maybe they bury losses in copier sales... but Nikon

differentials aren't large for most products either.

 

<p>

 

Some of that is volume. Maybe we don't need advertising for LF

equipment. Has anybody here bought a lens or camera based on

advertising? Anybody seen an Ebony Camera ad lately. My point is that

the business model of many US LF distributors is in trouble, and the

quicker that changes, the better for everybody, me, the distributor,

my local dealer, and the potholes.

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