Glicee & other digital printers

I am starting to experiment with glicee and other high end digital

print processes. I have been reviewing the capabilities and

pricing of a number of labs and have talked with several. I am

now gettign ready to send some chromes off to a few different

labs to see how they do. Given the price of this exercise all input

from anyone who has any labs to recommend based on their

experience is appreciated. Quality is my first concern but price is

also important and I have seen wildly varying pricing.

<p>

Right now, based on nothing more than reading, talking and gut

the two labs that I am inclined to try first are Glicee print Net in

Pueblo, CO and ej Arts in Rochester, NY. All comments on

these and all other labs are appreicated.

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Ted

You're talking about Giclée printing, right?

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Try http://www.lightroom.com/lr_pages/digital_frameset.html The lab

is in Berkeley, CA. I've handled sample prints and they look really

good. Printing cost for the quarter sheet (17.5" X 23.4") start at

$60.- To that you need to add the scanning and preparation of the

digital file. That runs about $30.- per picture. That means you're

looking at an approximate total $100.- for the first time print.

<p>

Hope that helps,

Ralf

Ted - A Giclée is an inkjet print by definition "Giclée" literally

means "ink spray". Some will jump up and down and insist that only

Iris prints can be called "Giclée" - but do some investigation before

you buy. What printer, inks and paper are they going to use to print

your photos? I believe Iris is now out of business - companies are

using the Epson 9500 and other printers to output "Giclée" prints

these days.

Ted - checkout this link

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http://www.fineartgicleeprinters.org/

Wayne,

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Thanks, I suppose I shouldn't have been so cryptic in my

original post. By and large I am most interested in those labs

taht are doing customorwk and Iris printers (or comperable).

While Iris is out of business the basic Iris printer has, I believe,

been updated.

<p>

I know enough about the technology to be dangerous but am

learning. I am comfortable making decisions about papers

based on the images I am considering. I will be more

comfortable in myu final choice of a few printers to test out if I

have some comments from the experience of others.

<p>

My experiences with labs over the past 30 years has been that

you sometimes click with a printer and sometimes don't. That

you can sometimes develop a symbiotic relationship with a

master printer that is almost a partnership. When you are paying

good money for drum scans and what follows I believe you

should be able to get that kind of skill.

<p>

I've got a competent lab that does competent work for every day

output ... I am looking for more.

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Ted

In conjunction with Wayne's suggestion check out this site,

http://www.wide-format-printers.org/, which gives you the whole

'Magilla' from A to Z.

<p>

They'll line you up with the right printer depending on the

amount of money you've got, and your skill level.

<p>

$100 per print, why? Unlike getting a photomechanical print,

the service bureau charges you for tests!? You can spend a fortune at

a service bureau in no time, why not consider putting all that money

together in one lump sum to buy a printer?

<p>

We're not talking Lightjet, we're talking inkjet. 5yrs ago you

could argue that the Iris was all alone, but it's got a lot of company

now.

Ted,

<p>

You might want to look at Finer Images - finerimages.com While I

have not used them personally yet, I have framed several prints from

a couple of different artists here in my hometown and have been

impressed wih what I have seen. I also like their pricing. They

charge you by the sheet and they are currently having a special where

you buy one sheet get one free. Contact them to be sure of this

special. I like the pricing by the sheet as it allows you to make the

most of the paper.

Ted, some good suggestions above. I would reccomend considering

doing your own printing in house if you do sufficient volume to

justify the expenditure and huge learning curve. If you don't print

large, say nor more than 13" x 19", you can buy a desktop Epson that

will rival all the very expensive rigs a lab has. If you want to

print larger, you can step all the way up to the 44" with an Epson

9X00 for only $5k. Of course these are only tools, you need

knowledge and experience to make them all work to perfection.

<p>

As for what to look for in a lab.... be sure they use ICC

profiles, this will make your scans and final files universal for

future printing on any printer. Also find out how their profiles are

made, and how often they are uptdated. Be sure the longevity issues

meets your needs, and be sure to ask for sample prints with the inks

and papers they are proposing. This is truly the Achillies heel of

digital printing. Great color gamut, it fades fast, lousy gamut,

they last for 200 years! So be sure the paper and ink combination

has at least been tested and will meet your requirements. Any number

you hear, such as 30 years, divide by 2, and thats probably more

realistic. And remember, inks and paper work together, so they must

be tested together, not seperately. Be sure you understand the

resolution your prints will be made at, and find out if the profiles

were made for that specific resolution. Also be sure your final work

has no fine banding lines in the print. This is another major

shortcoming that can ruin a digital print.

<p>

The bottom line of all this ..... ink jet prints, in my

opinion, when done right, on calibrated equipment, using excellent

inks and supplies is the best looking print available today. This is

specially true on the fine art papers. On Glossy papers, to match

the Cibachrome look, the dye based images are stunning, but the

pigmented images are still inferior to Cibas, once again, there is a

trade off for longevity vs. gamut. To me, what makes ink jet

printing unique is the ability to make a photographic print on fine

art papers vs. glossy papers. Overall, what impress most people in

the end is the ink and paper combination. Every printer I know

constantly struggles with this issue and continues to experiment with

every new inkset / paper to acheive the greatest degree of gamut vs.

longevity.

<p>

Of course the final digital print is compilation of the quality

of the film to start with, the enlargement factor, the quality of the

scanner and operator, the expertise of the PS manipulations / color

corrections / sharpening, the quality of the RIP / driver to make the

final print, the paper and ink used, the quality of the ICC scanner &

printer profiles and the proper selection of the working space inside

Photoshop. A bad looking final print may NOT be the fault of the

printer / ink / paper, but rather improper execution of any of the

prior steps. This is almost impossible to determine by just looking

at the final print only.

<p>

As for labs, I can't reccomend any in paticular, hence the

reason I started doing all this myself. A friend of mine who has one

of best digital set ups I have ever seen does occasionaly print for

others, contact me off list if you are interested. Hope this helps a

bit...

Ted.....Bill Glickman has just written in a nutshell, a clear and

concise synopsis of everything you should know and do when the final

output is a digital print.

<p>

You ahould see the look on some the peoples faces behind the

counter at some of these service bureaus when you start asking them

detailed questions such as these before considering whether or not to

have them do the job. The bottom line is nobody is going to care

about your project like you are, and knowing exactly what you want,

having your own printer might be the way to go.

<p>

In terms of lightfast these materials are, I don't believe some

of these claims of 70-100 years, and whose going to be around to tell

them they were wrong. The permanence issue notwithstanding, go get

your own printer, at least with your own printer, your mistakes will

be made for free.

Pricing at service bureaus come in three categories....

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1) We're pricey but we ain't trying to get rich off one Job.

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2) Greedy and proud of it.

<p>

3) We're taking all your money because you were dumb enough to

come in here.

Silicon Gallery in Philadelphia does beautiful work and the digital

artists around here swear by them. (Not at them.)

It a shame all service bureaus are not like Silicon Gallery, but

the fact is they're not. Does pointing that out upset you? Anybody

who has eyes can go on the web and compare prices to see how greedy

some service bureaus can be.

<p>

I wish they were all honest, but they're not.

Johnathan, your right, you can get some really blank stares from

service bureuas when you press them for this information. The tend

to know less than actual digital printers who do nothing but make ink

jet prints. You almost have to dedicate 18 hrs a day to this craft

as it seems issues are changing every day... hence the reason many

people are printing on their own now...

When I would go to a lab for a photomechanical print, I would

sometimes ask the individual taking my order, 'are you a

photographer?,'when I was going to need some complex 'burning and

dodging' and so forth. Most of the time these people would be

forthright and suggest, 'hey..why don't I bring the printer out here',

which all but guarenteed that there wasn't going to be any confusion

about my print.

<p>

I've gone to service bureaus and asked the individual who's

taking my order if they in fact do digital themselves, and in response

I've many times gotten back this 'how dare you' look, and an emphatic

No to my next question of 'then can I talk to the printer'. This

scenario is quicksand.

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When the above scenario happens, I just walk right out of the

service bureau. In the past when I said ok and trusted the

individual to interpret my instructions corredtly, the resulting

digital print would many times be a mess and there would be a

dispute, and they would have the nerve insist that I pay for the

botched printed in addition to the corrected print('there was nothing

wrong with the way the order was taken, it's your computer, and if you

want us to fix it, you have to pay for another print.')

<p>

There is a 'one man shop' out here in California, the name right

now escapes me, that does good work and there may be others that I'm

unaware of, but many service bureaus as you say Bill, stick people on

the front desk who have obviously been instructed to not let you talk

to the technical people even if it will make the job go easier. I go

less and less to service bureaus now because I'm tired of fighting

through the maze. Hopefully Ted can find some easygoing folks who'll

work with him.