Getting Permission to Shoot Industrial Landscapes

How do I go about getting permission to shoot certain subjects, such

as fenced-off buildings, factories and industrial landscapes? Just

when is permission needed?

 

<p>

 

Last month I was shooting on the Santa Monica Pier, when I was

approached by three security men in uniform, informing me that I'd

have to get permission from the "marketing office", because the image

of the pier is copyrighted (copywritten?). Despite the pro-looking

nature of my rig (P67 on tripod), I told them I'm a student (currently

not true- however, I'm strickly amateur-shoot for the sheer love of

it). They said fine, show us a full-time student photo ID. Since I

couldn't produce an ID, and there was no time to go to "the office"

(the light was fading fast), I dejectedly packed up all my gear and

left.

 

<p>

 

Two weeks ago while in New York I was almost arrested for shooting the

exterior of an abandoned GM plant. The place was an amazing subject,

and it being a holiday weekend, there was no way I could get

"permission" to shoot these incredible piles of twisted machinery. I

took a risk and climbed through an opening in the fence (cut by

someone else). Needless to say, an heroic, bored Pinkerton guard was

overjoyed to find me walking around the piles of rusted steel. He

ordered me to open the P67's back and expose the film, or face the

police for trespassing (which, I'll admit I was doing).

 

<p>

 

So, when one is travelling, how and when does one get permission to

shoot certain subjects? What's off limits and how is one to know?

(obviously trespassing is risky) When you chance upon a scene, and the

light is just right, what's the point if you have to go and search out

the proper authority, when the light will be gone...What do you do on

weekends when there are only officious security guards wandering

around...And if I am to seek advance permission, what do I tell them?

That I'm an artist, interested only in the image, or a student working

on a project? Should I have a card printed up that says "artist", or

take a class just to get the student ID? But what if some day I turn

pro and want to sell the image? What about shooting people in street

photography? I would love to hear from anyone who has experience in

shooting buildings, factories, public places (that have copywritten

images). Is there a solution, or is the fun in spontaneous image

creation gone? Or am I just naive in this litigious, fear-filled world? Thanks in advance, David C

This is the same problem I had when I was photographing Navy ships in

January this year. Fortunately, the security guard was nice enough

to "go have a cup of coffee" while I was shooting. (The ships were

beautifully sillouetted, and they were open to the public in an hour

anyways)

 

<p>

 

A security guard can only perform a "citizens arrest". Security

guards have exactly as much police powers as you and I. They can

really only tell you to get lost. Consult a lawyer on what actually

constitutes criminal trespass.

 

<p>

 

Yes, you have to get permission to be on private property. <b>This

<i>doesn't</i> mean that you can't photograph it.</b> Unless

something is actually a work of art, I don't think that it can be

copyrighted.

 

<p>

 

Here in Seattle, there is a "Troll Under the Bridge" sculpture. One

of the local papers published a picture without prior authorization,

so the sculpture's owners decided to have a problem about it. There

is some "loophole" in the copyright law for news organizations to

publish current news (something like that). This doesn't mean it

can't be photographed, just that publishing the photograph can get

you into legal trouble.

 

<p>

 

As far as the pier goes, the security guys could not stop you unless

you were on their property. If you were definitely on public

property, then they can't do anything. And you can file harrassment

charges against them.

A thought just occurred to me: Do what one photographer did in

Tibet: Tell the authority figure that they look great, and would you

please step into the picture?

 

<p>

 

I don't remember where I read the story. What happened is that he

wanted to photograph a platoon clearing a roadway. Well,

photographing the military is forbidden by the Chinese. So what he

did was that he went up to the captain and asked to photograph him

against his troops, b.s.-ing him about how it would be captioned.

 

<p>

 

The only thing that I can think of with the security guard at the

abandoned plant would be to look overjoyed that he showed up, stick

him in front of the camera, shoot at least one of him, and then shoot

around him. Flattery and b.s. can go a long way with people. Oh,

yes: get yourself one of those <a

href="http://www.photoflex.com">Photoflex</a> Litedisc folding

reflectors ("Could you please hold it here"), and business cards with

model release form on the back.

Coming from my litigious-happy school (read the address) I recently had

a long, long talk about photographing buildings on campus.

 

<p>

 

I was carrying around my 4x5 (and being a student, obviously doing it

for personal pleasure... but that's a different story altogether) and I

was hassled by a security guard here about "illegal to photograph the

campus for profit" until I provided ID, upon which I was not physically

thrown out but "persuaded" to leave the building. (I just didn't have a

class in that particular one at that time.)

 

<p>

 

Turns out that as it's a private property, but publically accessible

(no fences) they can't have a problem with you photographing it per se,

but publishing it, on the other hand, will get you thrown into a

copyright suit so fast you won't know what hit you.

 

<p>

 

You need to get their permission, a fairly large fee and cut of your

profits, as well as a $1,000,000 (!) bond (in case you don't follow

their instructions) in order to secure copyright privileges to

distribute for profit anything with an identifiable image of any campus

building, campus logo, the name, any likeness... you get the idea.

 

<p>

 

So now when any security people come up to talk to me, I just rattle

off some names of people higher up and tell them to talk to these

officials. Usually that helps. I tried to get the President of the

college to sign a little form saying that it's ok for me to be on

campus, but he felt that wasn't necessary. *grin*

 

<p>

 

-jon

I know I'm just asking another question. But... So is the general

consensus with pros to just shoot and chance litigation, or pay? For

example, here in Seattle the Space Needle is privately owned. But it

is the most photographed subject in the city and I can't believe that

every small time pro, post card, calander, etc. is paying royalties?

Same thing for Empire State Building and similar subjects. Is all

public property fair game? (ie: public university, park, Golden Gate

Bridge) And do painters have to get permission to paint a building?

And if that's okay because of abstraction, what amount to darkroom

fun do you have to do before you're off the hook? Opinions from legal

experts? This is just another sad example of living in a world where

everyone always has to worry about getting sued. Sorry for more

questions, thanks for responses!

 

<p>

 

-John

How about using a long telephoto lens and shooting from off the

property, say from a neighboring building? Luckily, here, in

photo-happy Japan where you see scores of people carrying tripods,

even for P&S 35mm's, the thought of something that couldn't be

photographed by the public is virtually incomprehensible. I did run

in to problems in Paris in front of the Louvre, in the park across

the street, and at the Arc de Triomphe in using a tripod,

though.Maybe it's only the lawsuit-happy US?

One of the problems that I've had in attempting to photograph in semi-public spaces has been in obtaining permission to use a tripod. For example at the Winter Garden at the World Financial Center in NYC, they wanted $500 for a tripod permit. Needless to say I didn't purchase one. Rather, I steadied myself against a convenient pillar and got a very nice shot with a wide angle lens of the courtyard. In Washington, DC it took me a couple of weeks of telephone calls and faxes back and forth in order to obtain a tripod permit (free of charge) to use OUTDOORS on the grounds of the US Capitol. Many places will give permission, but it takes a lot of time.

As far as I know, it's never illegal to photograph anything, as long

as you are on public property when you take the shot and you are not

invading anyone's privacy (shooting into their bedroom window etc.).

 

<p>

 

You can't USE the images for commercial purposes without a property

release from the owner of the building, but you can take the picture

without a problem. Of course if you are on private property, then the

property owner makes the rules about what you can and cannot do.

The toxic corporate-industrial world is indeed very paranoid�and

often extremely hostile to photographers. Tresspass if you must (and

usually we must) but be prepared with a good cover story. My motto

is, "Shoot First, Ask Pemission Never." If you're accosted by some

zealous security guard just play dumb: "Oh, I'm an amateur

photographer and I just love the colors reflecting off that pool of

sludge..." "Am I really trespassing?" Etc. The absent-minded artist-

photographer act works wonders. In general, be polite but firm. Phony

IDs or press passes are asking for trouble. Stash exposed film in a

hidden pocket, keep a dummy roll or two where they can find it, so if

you have to fog it, you won't lose your real pictures. Be clever. The

authorities usually have very little understanding of photography

equipment and are easy to fool.

>As far as I know, it's never illegal to photograph anything, as long

as you

>are on public property when you take the shot and you are not

invading

>anyone's privacy (shooting into their bedroom window etc.).

 

<p>

 

Note that Bob's response is specific to the United States. This is

not true in many other countries, where there can be laws about

photographing people and buildings. It can also be illegal to

photograph within certain localities of countries; for example, in

many indigenous communities in Latin America.

peter and i employ the same tactics of disarmament. "just some

hare-brained artist makin' pictures of junk"... i can't tell you how

many times i've been asked if i'm with either the E.P.A or "The

Insurance Company" or "The Newspaper".... right... with a 45 year old

linhof tech III 4x5 and 50 lbs of beat old gitzo and an old graphlex

case... doing survelence... pretty sneaky, huh!

 

<p>

 

one thing that might get you out of trouble if they do actually detain

you is a clause called "attractive nuisance".

 

<p>

 

this is what saves little kids from being sued or arrested from

sneaking onto abandoned property. if it's a restricted or dangerous

area, then it needs to be properly fenced with clear signage. this is

also what allows the parents of the afore-mentioned kids to sue the

property owners of the swimming pool that kid just drowned in. it was

not sufficiently secured.

 

<p>

 

as mentioned: only in america.

 

<p>

 

and as peter said, it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

otherwise, plan ahead, write letters, give free prints (of previous

work), get letters of endorsement from "important personages" and hope

the light/weather is good when they assign you a slot....t

Legal threat to Photographers: the French legal system has inplace the capability for people included within a photograph, innocuous or otherwise, to sue for damages. This is becoming a threat as any self styled victim of intrusion can take out legal proceeding against the photgrapher, include someone in a building or landscape shot and suddenly this person can sue the photographer.....Ridiculous but true.

 

And it does not stop there, local councils in the midlands ( England) are charging for the use of parks by Wedding Photgrapher when used in the course of their chosen profession......but the guests that take the same photgraphs can do so for nothing...

 

Jack

I was recently in Modesto Ca and a marvelous tomato processing factory stimulated my nostrils as well as my artisitc inclinations. The pipes were lit perfectly in the afternoon sun. I burned 3/4 a roll and was approached by a Pinkerton who began asking personal questions. I detected a touch of frustration in her demeanor. She was a crumbling middle aged trailer park beauty who was "just doing her job" I engaged her in my appreciation of her workplace and offered to take her foto. She blushed and told me to come to the office and she could arrange a tour. The point I am making? Try to understand the guards point of view and exploit their weaknesses shamelessly so that you can take your beloved foto. Use all tricks. Dont let no rent a cop screw up your masterpiece. get the foto at all costs. ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION!

Be careful about airfields- jumping a fence and trespassing at an airport is a felony. A friend and came close to doing such a thing, but we only trespassed an area nearby. The transit authority cops still did a thourough inspection of our bags before they gave us $20 tickets. I chose not to make them find us with a german shepherd.

 

Nuclear weapons and national security are touchy things, of course- <a href="http://www.tabloid.net/1998/09/15/barney_980915.html"> Barney Grienke</a> has an interesting story to tell.

This recently came up for me. I wanted to photograph the

headquarters of a large US company. Nice architecture and

many nice flowerbeds.

 

About 30sec after I break out my P/S, boom no photography.

Note to self, learn to work at the speed of HCB. The guards were

helpful in suggesting I shoot off the sidewalk some 120ft away.

But no; good when all you have is 35mm lens.

 

My normal technique is to play the confused art student and have

a student ID handy. (Enroll in your local comunity college and get

one) "

 

I think we should try to make some sort of FAQ for doing

"Insertion photography." Cover story's techniques, legalities,

eqipment, being stealthy. etc etc