Julie H Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 … affect “intellectualizes” states of mind by formalizing them into symbolic gestures. In this sense, it is to be understood that as affect, states of mind have become constructs. — Vilém Flusser Think of the Migrant Mother's hand. Almost every picture of people by Dorothea Lange uses gesture in beautifully symbolic ways. The “artificiality” of represented states of mind is first of all an aesthetic problem. The world and life in it get an aesthetic meaning from the emotion-rich play of gesticulation. — Vilém Flusser Compare Lange's subtle use of gesture to the heavy-handed use in the portraits of Yousef Karsh. When I see a gesture emphasizing feeling, for example, that of a bad actor in the bad play who wants to convey the emotion of fatherly love, I would call it “false.” But it would not be right to call it an “error” or a “lie.” ... It would remain inauthentic even if the actor really were a loving father. ... On the scale of affect, Michelangelo must be located near the “truth,” and an actor in a Hollywood potboiler at a point close to the border of “kitsch,” quite apart from any consideration of whether the affect they express is real or whether they believe in it. — Vilém Flusser Which is not to say that over-the-top Hollywood gestures can't work. For example, these, that I like very much: Hurrell, Joan Crawford and Franchot Tone, 1936 Les Krims, Homage to the Crosstar Filter Photograph, 1971 At the other end of the subtlety spectrum, compare these: Roman Vishniac, Grandfather and Granddaughter, 1938 William Shew, Mother and Daughter, ~ 1845 Being unable to gesture can be a gesture: William van der Weyde, Man in the Electric Chair, 1900 What information theory suggests (and the step it actually takes toward a theory of interpretation) is that a symbol expressing a state of mind can be more or less empty and that the gauge of affect runs between fullness and emptiness, from inexhaustible meaning to empty gesture. At one end of the scale are majestic and rare gestures, whose meaning is still not exhausted after millennia. — Vilém Flusser ***************************************** Please note: A representation is symbolic precisely to the extent that it is not entirely explicable, that is to say, expressible by semantic means. Semiological views are therefore not merely inadequate; they hide, from the outset, the defining features of symbolism. — Dan Sperber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 great photos there Julie. one question, when does a gesture become a pose (and vice versa) or are they the same? (i'm thinking of the v-for victory sign in a lot of social media photos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie H Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 A pose is a kind of gesture. Marc Riboud, Photographers' Convention, Japan, 1958 Eugéne Atget, Store, Avenue des Gobelius, 1925 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 All of what can be derived by a symbolic gesture or state of mind always must consider the context of the entire image or else anyone can apply their own meaning. The only exception I can think of is a candid shot of a woman or man (not realizing they're being photographed) striking a pose in front of the mirror. But what would that symbolize? Narcissism? Or just looking to see they buttoned everything causing them to contort to form a pose that is perceived as a gesture. I think I've overthought this enough. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Is the image below of my hand a gesture or symbol of a gesture? Does it come across as just a fake gesture? Note there is no context within the rest of the image. It's just an empty background so there is some ambiguity as to what the photographer is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie H Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 Please note: A representation is symbolic precisely to the extent that it is not entirely explicable, that is to say, expressible by semantic means. Semiological views are therefore not merely inadequate; they hide, from the outset, the defining features of symbolism. — Dan Sperber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmurray Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Nearly all of my portraits have been done in a natural, casual setting with no formal set up, but just snapshots so to speak. I find that the spontaneous posing and gesture is a very important aspect of the resulting image. The spontaneous, natural "pose" seems to be an unconscious act of the subject which conveys something about them, which is for us, the viewers to guess. I have hundreds of examples in my portfolios. Here's one of my favorites. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Vongries Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Do remember, the meanings of gestures are often culturally specific. A benign gesture in one culture can get you beaten or worse in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Julie H said: ↑ Please note: A representation is symbolic precisely to the extent that it is not entirely explicable, that is to say, expressible by semantic means. Semiological views are therefore not merely inadequate; they hide, from the outset, the defining features of symbolism. — Dan Sperber I had to read that quote several times and concentrate on how each word was leading to some kind answer about symbolism and I just couldn't figure out what the hell Dan Sperber is saying in that quote, Julie. Julie, could you explain in your own words what Dan is saying in regard to your topic title "Gesture (symbols)"? This is about as far as I could gather from what he said... "A representation"= of what? An image or subject in an image?... "is symbolic precisely to the extent that is not entirely explicable" ( meaning the representation functioning as a symbol is not entirely understood. Had to look that word up to get its PRECISE MEANING for the previous words to make sense)..."Semiological views"...(meaning the study of sign processes and meaningful communication- OH! Is that what we're doing?! Why do I get the feeling this is the last thing Dan Sperber is concerned about in the way he writes). "...are therefore not merely inadequate; they hide, from the outset, the defining features of symbolism." So if one sees a subject in an image or the entire image as a symbol it's not a symbol because the nature of a symbol is to conceal that it's saying something in the form of a symbol to the viewer. Good lord that was a long walk just to say that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 one thing i really like about these threads is you can read something that takes your fancy and grapple with that thought and no one minds. so, if S is a measure of how symbolic something is, how do you measure S? (simple questions rool) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Did you intentionally misspell rule, Norman. Or am I going to have to look up 'rool' on google? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 anyway, back on topic and looking at migrant mum(which seems to symbolise everything depending on whom you ask), we have two gestures from mum and child. a open hand from mum (open to what? anything to help her kids ?) and a defiant, closed fist from the child. both are pregnant with symbolism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Norman, where are you seeing the image of migrant mum and child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Norman, where are you seeing the image of migrant mum and child? Dorothea Lange's photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Which one... Dorothea Lange migrant mother - Google Search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 the one with the two kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Which one... Dorothea Lange migrant mother - Google Search This one, which is the most talked about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 the one with the two kids Two kids... http://cphmag.com/-/2013/05/Dorothea-Lange-Destitute-pea-pickers-in-California.-Mother-of-seven-children.-Age-thirty-two.-Nipomo-CA-1936-02-lg.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 This one, which is the most talked about. Three kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 two kids and a baby :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Three kids. It has to be that one, Tim, if you look at the mom's and the kid's hands. The other one that you linked has no role of gestures in it, the way Norman described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The first time I saw the Migrant Mother image in high school history class I told myself that was my people I grew up with in south Texas in the mid '60's and didn't associate it with poverty. I didn't see it as a symbol of poverty. I didn't think I was poor. I saw it as rural farm life. But my history teacher made that all go away to where I saw this as some political comment on how the government needs to help these people without giving any background on who this migrant mother was and her circumstances. Was this image functioning as a documentary or a work of art? I never wanted to look at that image again. My history teacher made it into a symbol I didn't want to be associated with. I now stay away from people that look like that some of which are recovering meth addicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman 202 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 more closed fists, this time from a position of strength The man who raised a black power salute at the 1968 Olympic Games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie H Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 Steve that's a gorgeous picture — and perfect for our discussion. Look, not only at her expression and hand but at the slight lean, tilt, torsion of the body, neck and head. ************************************** If you start from a dancer: Arnold Genthe, Doris Humphrey Dancing Naked, 1916 ... body torsion plays an obvious role. Move to this portrait: Alfred Stieglitz, Georgia Engelhard, 1921 ... and the subtle tilts and torsions with the play of hands are still at least as important as the face (and the door). Go to an informal picture of a public "body": Robert Doisneau, At the Café Chez Fraysse, Rue de Seine, Paris, 1958 ... and, if you're looking for it, you'll notice how much her (and his) body posture and head tilt/turn contributes to her perfect hand gesture. Finally, please look at the Princess: Edward Steichen, Princess Youssoupoff, 1924 I love this picture. Princess Youssopoff ... is not dancing naked. Compare her to Doris Humphrey, linked above. Yet I find Princess Youssopoff's still, perfect pose at least as gesturally powerful as that of Doris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie H Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 Phil, I enjoyed your video. I think it may take us too far from photography, but it made me think of this: Gesture to history: Joel Peter Witkin, Canova's Venus Witkin is making a space: trying it on, feeling it — as well as commenting on it. I sometimes will "try out" a gesture that I see in a picture. I imitate it slowly, thoughtfully (hopefully nobody is watching). Feeling it by doing it seems to tell me more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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