Geeks not wanted. Go away! Take pictures! Bah, humbug!

<p>Geeks not wanted here!</p>

<p>This seems to be a common theme emerging on PN. PN doesn't want people with technical competence who take the time/effort to explain technical matters to those with questions about them or to discuss technical issues with other technically minded photographers. Technical discussions are apparently too offensive to the "go out and take pictures" crowd. Anyone who doesn't shoot in "P" or the green box mode, or worse still uses any camera with a mirror, is very, very uncool and should just wander off and die. There is no room in this hip environment for such old farts. Photography SHOULD NOT be a technical sort of thing. Photographers shouldn't worry their little heads about anything but composition. Just hold up the camera and press the friggin' button, for god's sake! If it doesn't immediately look good, grunge it up a bit with an Instagram tool.</p>

<p>Which makes me wonder how I fit in to this forum as a technically minded photographer who has taken a lot of time to discuss technical sorts of things (a.k.a. a "geek"). I'm feeling increasingly unwelcome here.</p>

<p>I think I feel a New Year's resolution coming on.</p>

<p>Sarah, I'm not getting that impression at all, maybe because I'm observing different forums from you. Can you point to a specific example? </p>

<p>Don't take it personally. It happens in all forms of life. Geeks never get credit and the "non-geeks" keep wondering how they get all of the stuff they crave... never realizing that there is an army of geeks behind every technology and commercial product working very hard for the multitude of folks who thinks this stuff "just happens". I have a friend who continually rants about this informing people that if engineers didn't exist they wouldn't exist. Interesting and very correct logic, but it goes over a lot of people's heads. Us geeks are like cockroaches... we exist even though most don't know about our existence, we are very productive even though most folks don't know what we produce, we multiply like rabbits, and we will exist long after the rest of them have faded away. It's a geek's life after all!</p>

<p>p.s. It isn't much better over on the more "technical" photo forums. They tend to be insular, bitter, grumpy, arrogant old men who frequently let everyone know just how insular, bitter, grumpy, and arrogant they really are.</p>

<p>I think being some combination of imaginative and realistic is important.</p>

<p>Things are what they are and, just as importantly, you are what you are.</p>

<p>That being said, keeping our eyes open is one of the most important things a photographer can do.</p>

<p>I just finished reading, with some amount of surprise, your intro to the Special Events portion of your website. You provide one example of a photo and then go on to talk about your technical process, camera use, and lighting technique. Will clients really be interested in this? I'd be much more interested in seeing more of your work and hearing about how, emotionally, you make a special event of someone else's special event in your pictures. There seems a major disconnect to me.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is, PN is as much a popular photography site as it is a more sophisticated one. So people are going to discuss what they're using and what's popular as well as other things. What's that old saying . . . "If the music's too loud, you're too old." It sounds to me like you're just embracing the curmudgeonly aspect of the Christmas season, the old scrooge thing. Lighten up, enjoy what you do and embrace it, and don't feel bad that others, even if you perceive it to be a majority of others, get satisfaction in different ways from you. Maybe you could even learn something from them!</p>

<p>I don't think anyone should practice photography in a way they don't want to just because others do so. But, Sarah, wake up. A lot of people simply aren't interested. That doesn't mean you should stop learning what you learn and appreciate what you appreciate about the technical aspects of photography. But it might call into question who wants to listen to it and in what context.</p>

<p>Hmmmm....</p>

<p>I'm not saying there aren't a lot of technical people here who are interested in technical issues. I'm saying that they get no respect. They can't hang out discuss much of anything without the cool kids driving by and yelling, "Nerds! Nerds! Nerds! Go out and take pictures, you hopeless geeks!" And this sort of behavior is tolerated here. It's the norm.</p>

<p>I've been called a nerd/geek almost my entire life, and I can take this sort of disrespect and name calling to some extent. However, there is a certain fuzzy threshold beyond which it grates on my nerves. I'm simply tired of it. If another person on this forum tells me to stop obsessing over technical things and go out and take pictures, I think I'm going to bail.</p>

<p>BTW, has anyone noticed that many of our very best technical minds have already left the building?</p>

<p>You seem to be taking one comment I made <a href="/casual-conversations-forum/00cFpS">in one thread</a> out of context. The poster, an experienced photographer, asked for recommendations for a P&S for his sister to make it easy to take closeups of jewelry she makes. I asserted, informally, that some of the replies had nothing to do with his actual question, and were in effect preaching to the choir without actually answering the question.</p>

<p> I don't see any anti-geek, reverse elitism, dumbing down or any other variation of that sentiment on photo.net. If anything most forum participants tend to be very technically minded and persnickety about accuracy, including myself on many b&w forum issues.</p>

<p>The downside is that we tend to rattle on in detail about peripheral issues without actually answering the questions some folks have.</p>

<p>Like grandfather, like grandson is sort of a family observation. My dad was an electronics engineer, my son is a computer "geek" and a pharmacy technician. I was in sales all my life with a gift of gab with clients. As a youngster, something would break and I'd ask my dad for help. Help would arrive after a long discussion on every aspect of the birth, design, manufacture, purpose, care and maintenance of the broken item, When my computer or other electronic item fails to produce, my son goes through the same drill as my dad. I really want to say "just fix it so I <em> can continue my task at hand"</em> . I miss my dad, and I admire my son , I learned so much from them both. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from this wiser 72 year old hobby photographer. </p>

<p><strong>Sarah:</strong> <em>"I think I'm going to bail."</em></p>

<p>Sarah, if you're going to let the silly things people say on the Internet so rub you the wrong way, bailing might not be a bad idea. I've been heavily involved in the Philosophy of Photography forum since I started here. There's a relatively small group of us who regularly participate with seriousness. Sometimes, a newcomer comes along or an irregular and offers something of great value. More often, drive by posters come by and tell us not to take ourselves so seriously and to go out and shoot. It's a favorite line here. We regulars tend to just laugh it off and go about discussing what we're discussing.</p>

<p>The Internet is open to EVERYONE. A lot comes with that. Probably a good idea to get used to it.</p>

<p><strong>Sarah:</strong> <em>"And this sort of behavior is tolerated here."</em></p>

<p>Of course it is! Thankfully. What's the alternative?</p>

<p>From one family of geeks to another - Sarah - have a cup of coffee....it's the holiday season. Of course we're appreciated here, not only by other geeks (or more properly - technically minded people), but by others who are seriously asking questions. Yes, there are those fly by nighters who have one and only one newbie burning question without realizing the complex range of responses they may receive. "Just give me the bottom line", one of my former bosses used to say..."don't bother me with the details". Our value is in what each of brings to the table, and yes it can be infuriating when you're looking for a simple answer and you get paragraphs of info which may or may not be germine. OTOH, somebody can open up the door to the wonders of photography for a person who wants to learn from the experience of others. So, PLEASE, hang in there, and continue to share your wealth of knowledge (even some of your food recipes if so inclined).</p>

<p>Sarah, I thought you knew that photography is technically and artistically intertwined (a balance)....and I thought there is room here to discuss both. I wanted to say "can't we all get along"?</p>

<p>Happy Holidays to all.</p>

<p>Les</p>

<p>Sarah, </p>

<p>You're analyzing things way too much. You really need to step away from the keyboard and go out to shoot some photos.</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Sarah I've been a geek all my life and expect that to continue indefinitely. I read your bio once and apparently you have an advanced technical side to you hence your status as a geek also. Do like I do, consider the source and wait for the last laugh. You'll get it every time.<br>

<br />Rick H.</p>

<p>First, Sarah, please don’t bail. My own personal take is that you're one of the more worthwhile (i.e., well-informed, experienced, and helpful) contributors around here.</p>

<p><em>[H]as anyone noticed that many of our very best technical minds have already left the building?</em></p>

<p>Years ago photo.net had a guy IIRC named Scott (? last name) who was very technically knowledgeable, but often quite gruff and dismissive; not sure whether he was run off or just gave up. Those with high technical competence often (not always!) are less gifted with the patience and communication competence to assist the newbies and the 'I don't care about the technical details' crowd.</p>

<p>Also, while I'm personally interested in many of the technical details, some of us (myself included) tend to get sidetracked into technical details that don't really help answer the particular thread OP's question. I suspect the pushback would be a lot less if we mostly confined deep technical discussions to threads explicitly raising deep technical issues, and tried to keep to the bare minimum necessary to answers the OP's question any discussions of technicalities in threads seeking more general advice.</p>

 

<p>Scott Eaton...? </p>

<p>So far, I haven't had the same impression, though I'm not a real photogeek (mainly by lack of knowledge, else I probably would be), that people are treated as less welcome. But I do read more often than necessary that whoever is discussing here, would be better off outside shooting photos. Or the statement that vision trumps whatever technical discussion, without any further reservations. While vision and the ability to see is key to photography, a good photo does need technical competence. Whoever emphasises only one side of the discussion is missing part of the story. The problem - an internet wide problem, as far as I am concerned - is not so much that "geeks" or "pure artists" wouldn't be welcome, but that too many people seem more comfortable with a black or white proposition, rather than balancing pros and cons and so on. P.net is not free of such "versus" mentality. I can easily find a photography forum that is far worse, but that doesn't make it any better really. We need level-headed people to keep the place nice (as it is).</p>

<p>Sarah, for what it's worth, I actually never considered you geek, nor overly focussed on photography technique. Your voice is one of reason and balancing the need for technical competence as well as creative vision, one of the people that make p.net the useful place it is. If we make any resolution for 2014, please let it be to continue to make discussions balanced, level-headed, friendly and in a sharing spirit. Please ;-)</p>

<p>I have often seen, on photo.net, the person who has the most knowledge getting drowned out by the person who has the most time. I saw Moses Sparks wrote about getting discouraged by an argument with someone who knew almost nothing. The other guy, BTW, later got kicked out for his offensive posts. More recently, I saw it happen to Bjørn Rørslett. Someone who--like the rest of us--knew less than Bjørn, just kept posting until Bjørn gave up. Now that we're in an era of much heavier moderation than in the past, I wonder if the moderators could step in. Maybe ask the more knowledgeable contributor in such a discussion to write an article?</p>

<p>I miss Scott Eaton, gruff as he was, because he was so knowledgeable. His communication skills were actually excellent.</p>

<p>I hate to see threats to leave, but Sarah, I'll miss you if you do. Take care.</p>

 

<p>I recommend spending some time on the historical forums. We take pictures, but we really, truly love our technology, in the service of which our pictures are taken. Some pictures are better than others, but that matters little to us.<br>

I once issued a "Columnist's Manifesto" on this topic in response to a charge of banality of the pictures on the Classic Manual Cameras Forum: <a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00YuFR">link</a></p>

<p>Some of us are top banalities, while others have no banalities today.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>First, I really appreciate the support and encouragement of my fellow techies and from those who love them (e.g. Paul)!</p>

<p>Lex, my friend... Yes, it was partially, but not entirely, your "geek" comment, and perhaps I didn't understand/appreciate the context in which it was made. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's so much dismissive name-calling that goes on here -- geek, pixel peeper, digisnapper, yada yada. It's very convenient, is it not, to be able to dismiss the entirety of what a person says by objectifying them with the appropriate label!</p>

<p>And Fred, yes, it goes on. But that doesn't make it right. Do I have a thin skin? Yup. Is it perhaps just a bit thinner during the holidays? You bet. Should my skin be thicker, or should society be kinder? I would argue the latter.</p>

<p>And are nerd/geek types less socially gifted, even "socially retarded"? Well, we do have that reputation. However, one wonders (or at least <em>I</em> wonder) how many of us got that way. Is it because being intellectually curious is incompatible with social competence? Or is it because it is something condemned by a society of social conformists, such that technical people are ostracized from an early age for not aspiring to be Barbie or GI Joe -- or a Kardashian or an NFL football player? IMNSHO, it's probably the latter.</p>

<p>Anyway, all I'm saying is that it really gets old, it never feels good, and we (Photonet) have already quietly lost several of our best technical minds over it.</p>

<p>@ Sarah</p>

<p>What I get from forums is more polarization than I do in the real world. It's a camp or tribe mentality; everyone has to fall toward their associative predilections.</p>

<p>That said, one of the very best things about pnet (and pretty much every forum) is the presence of those who have genuine answers (rather than a mere opinion or belief). The less technically inclined or less experienced would be rather lost without folks like you who share their knowledge.</p>

<p>The internet also makes it easy for people to pretend they have knowledge and experience when they have neither. These are frequently the people who tell others to forget all that tech talk and get out and shoot.</p>

<p>The question you have to ask yourself is whether you feel like your contributions are appreciated enough or whether you're casting your pearls before swine?</p>

<p>I, for one, very much value your contributions to pnet!</p>

<p>Cheers.</p>

<p>Paul</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Hey, look at me! I'm a Person of Straw! Look, we all (or at least many of us) went through some sort of 'geek' phase. I 'tested' everything I got, until I realized that my photographs sucked. (They still do, but they suck <em>less.</em>)</p>

<p>To my way of thinking, there are two kinds of 'technical' threads. The first are the 'How Do I' kind. "How do I light this kind of group shot?" "How can I get better pictures of birds in flight?" These can be very useful, especially here on PN, where they tend not to devolve into 'versus' arguments. The second kind of technical thread is concerned with measurbation and factional divisions. "Nikon vs. Canon" being the original, and "DSLR vs. Mirrorless" being the latest incarnation. Endless, repetitious arguments about Eye-Cue and Bokeh. The same things said over and over. "[name of format/camera brand] is doomed!" "Raw Getter is way better than Darkroom 5.3 for Pentax raw!"</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I see these latter threads going on and on, often including (demonstrably) photographers who do not have a single image I can remember longer than thirty seconds. This is far less evident here than on dpreview.com or other gear-oriented sites, but it certainly happens. (<em>Vide</em> the Nikon Df thread. Don't like it? Don't buy it.) More to the point, as I've said many times, I never had someone at a gallery comment about LoCA or soft corners. Color harmonies? Yes. Bokeh? No.</p>

<p>A comment my son made a few years ago when he was still at school - <em>"I would rather be a geek than a dork".</em></p>

<blockquote>

<p>I've been called a nerd/geek almost my entire life, and I can take this sort of disrespect and name calling to some extent. However, there is a certain fuzzy threshold beyond which it grates on my nerves. I'm simply tired of it. If another person on this forum tells me to stop obsessing over technical things and go out and take pictures, I think I'm going to bail.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Gosh. I guess I'm behind the times. I didn't know girls could be geeks. Gee golly. That would make me even more protective.</p>

Sarah. I have an Airline Transport Pilot certificate and I was an Air Force command pilot. I was also a research director in the FAA. When I flew I felt I had to know enough about the equipment I flew technically to keep my ass out of trouble. I was put in my FAA job because I knew a little about the practical applications side of the job and could help a little to keep projects that way in Air Traffic Control and my specialty GPS and navigation. I feel the same about my photography. I need to know enough technically to keep my ass out of trouble (at least some times) but I also know that all of today's technology does not make me the artist Jan Vermeer was and he didn't even use a camera; just a window. IMO the technology just enables me to exercise what feeble talents I have. When I look at my pictures I want to derive personal satisfaction over my images not the process. Personally I think all gear is so technically good these days that one does not need to split hairs about which is best. But, frankly I am a very curious person and I also take great satisfaction in understanding what makes things like cameras and airplanes work. So I think you are properly in the right place having concerns about both the technical and the ephemeral. You are not a geek. You are just intellectually inquisitive. That's an admirable trait. Would knowing less technically make you a better picture taker?

<p>It would take a good example or two to get the gist of this one. But let's speak in generalities about PN and what it offers.<br /> First, I don't like the derogatory sense of the term geek. I am interested in technical details and still seek answers to questions that get beyond me. And will try to offer same when I can. I would rather have technical 'overload' by someone I respect than a lot of mushy, inane,feel good, anything goes comments and admonitions that disguise themselves as real advice. In a topical forum especially that gets in a category of specialist talk. <br /> Or more broadly an acceptance of lay back and anything goes in photography, "just get out there and fire away. <em> Count on your emotions, Luke Skywalker!</em>" ( Screw that young Luke, do your homework and your space science!)</p>

<p>So a pet peeve is showing its head, (oh oh, a hidden agenda surfaces).... When people go out and<em> just make pictures</em> a lot of them look like some of the bland stuff I see on the <em>photo critique</em> <em>forum</em> where I have been exploring lately. If this is the trend or the future , then the non geeks have gotten pretty laissez faire and I am now sentenced to the geek corner of the room with you, Sarah. I will have a cone hat with geek on it made up:-) Photo net depends on its community for content. <strong>We want you to stay...</strong>.aloha, gerry<br /> <br /><br /></p>