Future availability of 4x5 sheet film?

Hey guys.

 

Please forgive the question, it's genuine and not an attempt at

trolling or an ignorant stab at Digital either. I am new to 4x5 LF and

will be getting a Crown Graphic in the next couple of weeks. Being new

to this forum, generally, and the word on the ground regarding the

state of 4x5 sheet films future, I thought I would ask around and see

what the brains trust has to say?

 

I was asking at my largest industrial photography store last week

whilst picking up some Geppe slide frames and playfully threw out a

comment about "some of us still shoot film". The guy behind the

counter said "oh don't worry, we still sell plenty of that". I was

curious and asked him which formats are still selling well and he said

still allot of "35mm and Medium Format but not much Large Format

anymore"...which made me wonder what the future of sheet film will be

for those of us who shoot it.

 

I'd really like to be able to shoot allot of 4x5 before it dissapears

and I was somehow heartened to see that the LF landscape photographers

who I admire aren't jumping to Digital... yet; I hope they never do

truth be told. The final comment from the guy that makes me ask the

question was that he thought less film sales will ultimately drive the

price of film up. Seems to make sense but I hope this doesn't happen

too soon and make it even more difficult for amateurs to buy and shoot

4x5. Infact it's my sincere hope that LF sheet films will be available

at a fair price for atleast our lifetimes.

 

What do you guys have to say? Have I just bought into a system with a

dark immediate future with extremely high prices to come before the

ultimate decline? Or should I relax and prepare to have incredible fun

with sheet film safe in the knowledge that film will be available to

me for a long time to come? I shoot 35mm and MF also so this is

somewhat relevant to those formats also.

 

Your comments are apreciated, Simon.

My guess is that smaler firms may take up the challenge. For example, I like to use Infrared films. Kodak dropped all but 35mm for HIE (although 120 film can be had from David Ramano). But Cachet makes MACO 820c in all formats up to 4X5.

 

Midwest Photo in Columbus sells ann English film in very large sizes.

 

It is even possible to get 620, 127 and 616 (I think) film from B&H.

It may be that we will have to rely more and more on the big New York houses, but my guess is that there will continue to be a great many users who want to stay with the large and medium formats.

 

At least let's hope so> I just got a 4X5 enlarger and other stuff. So I really hope I will have enough film to keep the smell of hypo on my finger tips for many years to come.

Welcome to LF, Simon. It's a different world. No automation. No point and shoot. Plenty of opportunities to make mistakes. Quiet concentration. Every so often, a shot that you could never get with any other medium.

 

I think digital 35 mm is OK for weddings. I have yet to see a digital to b/w conversion that would come close to a 4x5 b/w negative.

 

Ilford has consistently supported the LF community. They make several sizes, and offer two "traditional grain" emulsions (FP4 and HP5+) and one outstanding "modern grain" emulsion (Delta 100). One of these days, they may also offer Delta 400 in sheets. My suggestion is to buy Ilford products to show your support of them. The more we buy, the more likely they are to keep making it.

 

If you are really concerned about the future, buy as much b/w film as you can afford and freeze it. I'm shooting Tri-X that is 2+ years beyond the expiration date, and I don't notice any degradation.

 

Good shooting.

 

David Beal ** Memories Preserved Photography, LLC

Simon,<br>

I won't speculate about avaialbility of film but to address your question about the future of your system - for less than the price of a top-of-the-line Canon you can get a BetterLight digital scanning back to fit your camera's Graflok back that will wipe the floor with any digital offering from Canon or Nikon, so even if film were no longer available, your system is still far from obsolete.<br>

<br>

Guy<br>

<a href="http://www.scenicwild.com">Scenic Wild Photography</a>

G'day David.

 

Thanks for your input mate. I am not new to the solitude of shooting non automated camera systems as I have been shooting an RB67 Pro-S for many years and the 35mm camera I use is from 1979 and is largely mechanical...it has a built in meter but I prefer to meter outside the camera with my Sekonic. In that sense, for me, moving into LF will be like familiar territory with a few new quirks of it's own as did MF present when I started shooting that.

 

Being a Landscaper I always shoot with a tripod and cable release + mirror up where available, 35mm and 120. In that sense LF is the same just a bigger neg and a slightly different approach but not that different from MF and the way I operate elsewhere.

 

As to Ilford, I've shot Ilford for many, many years and being Australian and half English it has been a standard film in my part of the world since year dot...unlike the north American market where many people are totally in the dark regarding this company. I do indeed hope that Ilford continue to make films but I am also very concerned that Colour Chromes will be available as I shoot allot of Velvia; any thoughts on that front?<div></div>

G'day Guy.

 

"...for less than the price of a top-of-the-line Canon you can get a BetterLight digital scanning back to fit your camera's Graflok back that will wipe the floor with any digital offering from Canon or Nikon, so even if film were no longer available, your system is still far from obsolete..."

 

Well that is exactly what I thought about keeping my Mamiya RB67 Pro-S, I figured that if film took a major dive then atleast with my MF system I can buy a digital back and operate with the same lenses. I have not heard of Betterlight but I will definately look into it for future reference, thanks!

I would not worry about sheet film being available as over the last 10 years many have fallen to the fears that it will be in short supply and it simply has not. Yes, there are a few specific types of film that have been discontinued, but that does not mean that conventional photography is doomed. Efke is producing old school B&W films and they are working literally 24 hours a day to meet demand.

 

Get your camera and buy as much film as you can afford and have fun. The last thing I want to do after working at my day job is get back in front of a monitor. I like the darkroom. You can always get into digital as prices always seem to be better and the technology improved the longer you wait.

 

Cheers!

The last super 8 movie camera was made over twenty years ago,Kodak still makes & sells film for it.

Nobody can predict the future. You work with what is available and if it goes away you work with something else. The history of photography is replete with the discontinuance of products that plenty of people liked. But they didn't abandon photography just because their favorite material was discontinued, they complained for a while and then they found something to replace it.

And Kodak didn't discontinue *glass plates* until 2002...

 

I can still buy two emulsions in 9x12 cm sheet film, in stock from an American importer, and I recently got two boxes of a third (TXP, the old version before the change to 320TXP) in that format. As of a year ago, I could have gotten an Ektachrome in this format, and probably still can if I'm willing to wait for special orders to come in from Europe.

 

And never forget, large format is where photography as we know it started; if all else fails, you can obtain or make holders for glass plates and work in ambrotype, tintype, or even Daguerreotype with the same lens, shutter, bellows, standards, and so forth. With a little care and some luck, my plate cameras (made 25 to 30 years before I was born) will still be in use many years after I've gone from this world.

For those of us who shoot 4x5 transparency...when Fuji came out with Velvia 100F and Astia 100F they immediately released it in 4x5 format (along with other formats). That, to me, sounds like they're going to keep supporting traditional film shooters...in, at least, formats from 35mm to MF to 4x5 and 8x10.

My "obsolete" 4x5 PhaseOne digital back is only 35 megapixel; and has been discontiued for a few years. I suppose it will croak before 4x5 film does.

Simon,

 

4x5 is an establish format, even if Kodak drop them from their line (which I doubt), Ilford will pickup the slack. If you are really concerned about it purchase a MF rollback, then you can assure yourself of a choice of two formats, it also cheaper.

Hugh,

 

I'm not concerned perse', but asking others whether there is, in their opinion, anything to be concerned about, since I am not as knowledgable regarding the state of 4x5 and sheet film sales and availability as the other formats. That was, and is the core of my question, not that I *am* concerned. I am posing the question...

 

Should I be?

 

Seems most say not, then all is good.

And a g'day to you, Simon. (Australenglish is a fascinating language!)

 

4x5 transparencies remain the gold standard for advertising, commercial and industrial work. From what I read, Fuji essentially owns the market. I don't think it will be long before Kodak gets out of color reversal film in ALL formats.

 

Velvia and Provia have captured the world's most beautiful landscapes and nature scenes and will continue to do so. Quickloads make the process easier and cleaner (and who doesn't want dust free LF?)

 

If Fuji ever discontinues Quickloads, then I'd start buying boxes of sheets; the end might be near.

 

Good shooting.

 

David Beal ** Memories Preserved Photography LLC

Simon,

I think LF is experiencing a rebirth of sorts. Cameras are still being made by several manufactureres and there are a half dozen well attended forums on the internet that offer advice to many newbies. and good film is being manufactured at attractive prices in eastern europe. If that can be taken as an indication of things to come then LF will be around for a long time to come. Regarding the availability of sheet film, like most esoteric activities, I think we will be (and many of us already are) more and more dependent on mail order houses for supplies as there just isn't the mass market appeal to make LF materials viable items for many local merchants to keep in stock. Hardly an inconvenience when compared to a sculptor who uses fifteen ton blocks (imagine the postage!)of quarried marble to make art, eh?

Welcome to large format. I started photography with a 35mm SLR, then bought a Mamiya C330, then a Hasselblad, and now own also a Sinar F2. It is large format that I enjoy. I think there will be lot of 4x5 sheet films available even in 30 years. Digital may kill 35mm, but not LF, even if some sheets are discontinued. I think no many people can afford a US$12,000? phase one 144 MP digital back that will be obsolete later when always more performant and cheaper products appear on the market, except big advertisment companies. It is like computer, that have to be replaced every 3 to 5 years. Stock film, I still have outdated feb. 1997 B&W film in the freezer and they are still good.

Simon,

 

I don't believe that you should be worry, I just bought a Linhoff IV, so that should give you an idea of how I feel about the issue.

 

I shoot both for money and as a hobby, with large format, and can tell you that no art director worth his/her salt will trade an image taken with film and a large format camera for a digital one taken with a smaller format. One taken with a Fuji MF may be the exeption, as since it has bellows.

 

While you can certainly find scanning back or digital backs for large format film, the vast majority of those are purchase for studio work alone, since they are way too fragile for field work, which means that the almost all field work in LF is done in film media.

 

From the artisc and purist point of view the market is solidly behind film, I do believe however that in the future you may have to special order the film as most stores don't carry the stock.

 

Truth be told most "photographers" dont know how to use a LF camera, so that has something to do with the lack of film availability, but them again is always been a specialty within photography.

 

So, don't worry

Will 4x5 be stocked at local camera stores in the future? Don't count on it.

 

Will it still exist at B&H? Absolutely.

 

In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that 4x5 demand has already mostly hit bottom--sales

declines from here should be small. 35mm still has a lot of falling to do. In a few years,

even economy digital will be able to beat 35mm film--there will literally be almost no

good reason left to shoot 35mm. But it'll be a long time before anything digital and

affordable approaches a 4x5 and film.

"Roger Krueger , aug 20, 2004; 04:18 p.m.

In a few years, even economy digital will be able to beat 35mm film--there will literally be almost no good reason left to shoot 35mm. But it'll be a long time before anything digital and affordable approaches a 4x5 and film."

 

I think the best reason to still shoot 35mm film is that most people get prints when they take their film to their local Walmart. With Digital few prints are made, I know I don't print anything I shoot with my digital p&s. Shooting film ensures you have your memories on photographic paper 30 years down the road and not a bunch of defunct computers or CDs.

Well, digital backs are expensive and each model will go obsolete faster then film. With software/hardware obsolesence every few years, you may see yourself going through a few digital 4x5 backs before std 4x5 film goes obsolete (if ever in our lifetime). Film is the cheapest route, and when its gone all you do is stick on a digital back when you no longer have a choice, we still need the swings/tilts, etc...so the camera will be around. If your a busy studio, the digital back is affordable, saving you lots of money in film/processing....if you really need it.

As to glass plates, the ones discontinued in 2002 were extremely thin ones, used for graphic arts, not regular camera ones.

 

"...for less than the price of a top-of-the-line Canon you can get a BetterLight digital scanning back to fit your camera's Graflok back ..."

 

Well I'm not sure where you found these prices, but last time I looked into Better Light backs they were selling between $15K and $22K. That's a lot more than a Canon.

 

4x5 is the most popular size of sheet film, so I would imagine that the big companies like Kodak and Fuji will keep it going the longest, even if they drop the larger sizes. I'm sure the small sizes (anything under 4x5 still made) will go first. However, 4x5 is still used for commercial work - especially architecture, and cameras with movements will always be needed.

IMHO, as long as film is being made for anything, it will be available in 4x5. Why? Because film is coated in large rolls, then slit, perfed, or whatever needs to be done with it. It's just no big deal for them to cut it to 4x5 and box it. Roll film is another story, since the backing paper is extremely special, you have to have spools, and there's the annoying step of attaching the film to the paper. I bet 4x5 outlives 120!

I've been an amateur photographer since the early 1970's. I don't have any sales figures or anything in front of me, but, having been an avid observer of all things photographic for decades, my impression is that there's more interest in large format now than there has ever been since the advent of 35mm cameras. Before, LF was a very specialized thing, used mostly by people who had a specific need for it. Now, all kinds of amateurs are using it just for the experience of it, the enjoyment of it. The nice thing about a LF camera is that it really is just a lens, a box and a shutter - the purest embodiement of what a camera is. Everything is pretty much the same way it was 100 years ago, and it's really all modular. It's probably the least "dead end" camera format in existence, for that reason. All it needs is a simple sheet of film, no special roll formats, canisters, memory cards or anything. It's probably easier to manufacture film in sheets than in any other format, so, I don't think it's endangered at all. Sure, most regular 35mm camera and digital stores already don't carry it. But they never have, so that's nothing new.

Well, Ilford may close, so who knows. I hope the small ones mentioned above make it.