FP4+ in Pyrocat HD: Review & Revise this Step by Step Process Please!

I've spent over an hour searching for a proper step by step process for developing Ilford FP4+ in Pyrocat HD. I haven't found an end-to-end description anywhere. If the assembled wisdom could improve on the bits I've been able to cobble together, I would appreciate it before I go ruin some film and waste some money. Thanks!

 

1. Distilled Water Soak: 5 Minutes.

2. Develop:

2.1 Strength of Pyrocat HD Glycol at A : B : Distilled Water of 1:1:100

2.2 ASA 100

2.3 Temp 68 F

2.4 Time 18 Minutes (Answers here are all over the board. 6 minutes to 20 minutes and everything in between. What is the truth? I'd really rather rate it at box speed of 125, but that seems irregularly done.)

2.5 Agitation: "continuous agitation for the first 60 seconds of development, then agitation for 5-10 seconds every 30-60 seconds thereafter"

3. Stop: Water, 2 Full Exchanges

4. Fix: Photographer's Formulary, TF4 (Is this the correct product? For how long? Found only one source that says 5 minutes.)

5. Rinse: Distilled H2O, 4 Full Exchanges (Still required?)

6. Wash: Ilford Wash Aid, 1.5 : 28.5, 1 minute, then successively dilute thrice (Still required?)

7. PhotoFlo: PhotoFlo-200, A few drops / 30 Ounces, 1 minute, then successively dilute twice (Still required?)

 

Please offer adjustments, and I'll do a round up after there is some quantity of assembled wisdom. Thanks!

Edited July 28, 2020 by bradleycloven

I am sure "others" will pop in, but this is my "standard" work flow with Pyrocat HD (in glycol) and my other Catecol based pyro mixes (HD is one of these).

The "standard" mix of 1:1:100 for me produces grossly over developed negatives. I rate 400 or 100 materials (UFX in my case) at 250 & 80 asa during exposure. For those Zone Heads, that's Over Exposure (OE). To compensate for this OE, I use Under Development (UD) in the developing by REDUCING the amount of both the A & B liquid in the Pyrocat HD. Since the 60's, I have used Nikor tanks & reels. 450ml for a single roll (bottom spacers for 35mm)

For ages, I have always worked with the concept of 3ml of developer for each roll of 135-36 or 120 film. Most film sheets show lots of curves and gammas, but in the end, most of these "data points" are achieved with 3ml of developer. Pick your poison...D-76, Rodinal, Pyros of all kinds.

With this in mind, 3ml of A will be used.

With a bit of maths, one can find that the B solution will have 6 grams of Carbonate / liter of solution. These days I mix my Pyrocat HD (and the other Pyros in my life) up from bulk and have found one STILL needs more Carbonate (B) if only 3ml of B is used in the developer. To start, use 6ml of the B solution until you can source the Carbonate (either Sodium or Potassium). My "current" method is 5.25 gram of Sodium Carbonate in the 450ml solution.

Onward:

3ml of A + 6ml of B into 450 ml of DI water. Allow 2-5 minutes for the HD to "activate"

3 minute pre-soak with DI water.

My times vary from 12m (in Hawaii) to 16-17m in Wa. state. The times you will need to work out. For 68-70f, start with 16m

Empty pre-soak. Pour in developer.

30 seconds of EZ over & Ups.

Agitation: : One (1) SLOW EZ & Up at the minute marks

Stop Bath: Use plain water, 2x.

Fix: I use a DIY Thiosulfate / Sulfite mix. The current rapid fixers are OK. ONE RULE: NO acid fixer allowed !

No hypo clearing required.

Wash per your current routine. I use an Igloo cooler "system" that contains all the chems & water for six (6) 5 minute washes per the Ilford Archival specs.

Hang to dry after 0.5ml of Photo-Flo (DI water) for 3 minutes. I mist spray my negatives 2x per side.

---

Using my exposures and this method of developing, negatives are produced with excellent Zone System Values throughout the negative. I can read the print of a newspaper thru the negative.

Included here is a PyrocatHD neg from last year. Note the blow up. Pyrocat HD and the other "Cats" really tame the grain for you 35 freaks out there !

Aloha, Bill

Edited July 28, 2020 by James G. Dainis

Once again, My Igloo system.

I have just realized a small bit of my method might be confusing.

After the "Onward"

3ml of A + 6ml of B into 450 ml of DI water.

All the rest is good. Bill

 

NOTE: The above correction was made in previous post by Moderator.

Edited July 28, 2020 by James G. Dainis

most of these "data points" are achieved with 3ml of developer. Pick your poison...D-76, Rodinal, Pyros of all kinds.

Whoa there Bill!

How can any film be developed in only 3ml of D-76?

And why would Agfa/Adox recommend a minimum of 7ml of Rodinal per film?

Morning Joe.

I have never consulted with the various companies mentioned but have worked out the 3ml ever since 1965 when it was shown to me by the German national who ran our Army photo lab. Just last week I ran a roll of my UFX 100 thru a 3 ml Rodinol mix for Mike G. in (another forum) when he asked about Kentmere / UFX 100 material in Rodinal. Here is the photo posted using 3ml in my 450 ml Nikor SS can/reel.

Developing procedure is per above outline.

I have always been a "tinker" with my photo work. Mad chemist at times, but always wondering if something better could come about.

Stay safe everyone. Aloha, Bill

Edited July 28, 2020 by Bill Bowes

but have worked out the 3ml ever since 1965 when it was shown to me by the German national who ran our Army photo lab.

Hmmm.

3ml of Rodinal would contain about 0.5 gms of Para-aminophenol. Enough to develop a film with just a slight compensation effect. But 3ml of stock-strength D-76 diluted into even a bare minimum 220ml of water, would only contain about 50 milligrams of developing agents - ten times less than Rodinal - and have a pH barely above 7. I doubt that any sensible length of developing time in such a weak brew would give a noticeable density, and certainly not a useable negative.

Joe, the last time I used the 3ml of D-76 was late 70's and if memory serves we right (I'm 77 now) it was close to 45m, so that would probably be called Stand Development now these days. About then I started using D-25 or D-23 for my 8x10 or 4x5 word and continued using the 3ml of Rodinal for MF / 35mm work well into the late 90's when PMK-Pyro came along.

Since D-76 is not around, temptation to re-prove myself is not present, nor can I dive into some old negatives...lost those in fires along the path to senior status !

Aloha, Bill

I'm not too far off 77 myself Bill, but in all those years I've never seen, read or heard anyone suggest using only 3ml of D-76 before. A1:3 dilution yes, but close to 1:100? Never.

 

You realise I'm now going to have to try this lunacy? So "now look what you made me do!"

it was close to 45m, so that would probably be called Stand Development now these days.

It would be called stand development in any era.

Edited July 29, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

Well, I gave 3ml of D-76 a shot Bill, and I think you've been 'pulling my leg'.

 

I did a clip test on some freshly made up full-strength D-76 beforehand, and got an acceptable D-max on a piece of the T-max 100 I was about to develop in the dilute solution.

 

I actually mixed 5.5ml of D-76 with the 227ml of water my tank takes. My hand slipped while I was pouring the D-76 and I couldn't take the excess back out again!

 

Anyway, it was a particularly hot day, with an air-temperature around 75F, so that's what I developed the short length of T-max 100 at. I gave it an hour-and-a-quarter.

 

After the usual stop and fix, plus a brief wash, I opened the tank to see an almost completely transparent strip of film. I wasn't really surprised.

 

On closer inspection the fully-fogged part of the film showed a density of about 0.3, and the properly exposed frames might have registered 0.15D over base+fog in the very densest highlights. In short, a totally uselessly under-developed negative. Although I could see a vague 'tintype' positive by reflection against a piece of black card.

....it was shown to me by the German national who ran our Army photo lab.

And I bet they were a firm believer in homeopathy too! :rolleyes:

Edited August 13, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

The only thing I can say Joe is that the last time I use "the 3ml" was about 1973. Perhaps my little Grey Cells have "expired" ??? Your guess. Am I off by a factor of ten ? or perhaps 100? From 73 until 95 when I discovered PMK-Pyro, I used D-25 mixes. Aloha, Bill

No harm done Bill. The bit of film was the leader and first few frames of a resolution test on T-max; consisting of identical exposures with a fine focus-bracket between frames.

 

You just piqued my curiosity, which is now satisfied. About extremely dilute D-76/ID-11 at least. There's no merit in it whatsoever IMHO.

 

FWIW, Kodak has this to say in the T-max data sheet.

"We do not recommend using more dilute solutions of these developers than indicated in the table. Dilute developers require longer development times; they give slightly higher film speed and a slight increase in graininess."

 

I can't confirm that. You'd need an image you could actually print or scan to tell!