Formals onstage: Shooting "up"

<p>Just wanted to hear how everyone else compensates for having to shoot aiming up when formals are done onstage and you're on the ground.<br>

I can't really see anyone using a TS lens, or having an eight foot tripod.. Well most people anyway.<br>

I've got a handful of images from the formals that need PS'ing to correct the camera shooting angle, and it's not very easy to do well... So it got me thinking about how to avoid this extra post production in the future.</p>

<p>I use a ladder. If you need a tripod, I've seen people rig a tripod onto a ladder. Or drag the shutter. Or push the group back so you're onstage too. Or convince everyone the formals should be on the ground, with you on the stage, or maybe just the bigger groups.</p>

<p>Ladder... Hmm. What a great idea :)</p>

 

<p>I have a buddy who has one of those "3 step" ladders with a hand rail (commonly used in kitchens).</p>

<p>He has bolted a PVC "cup" (I think it's a pipe end fitting) to the edge of the top step. He puts his monopod foot in that cup if he wants to use a pod.</p>

<p>You can also compensate some by moving back the isle and having your subjects drop their chins. And, you can go wide with your lens, pre-focus and lift the camera above your head and shoot a few that ways as well.</p>

<p>This might not be tall enough for what you're referring to, but it's great for getting a little height, and getting all the action on the dance floor:<br>

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Kikkerland-Fold-Short-Step-Stool/dp/B001GM3VD4">http://www.amazon.com/Kikkerland-Fold-Short-Step-Stool/dp/B001GM3VD4</a><br>

It folds up and doesn't take up much room. Fits in my rolling camera bag.</p>

<p>I use steps if needed (not too often). I generally shoot full length for groups on stage, so the waist level shooting position is preferred to me for that setup (meaning that in your case, I would have the cam. close to my eye level and still be around the waist height). If you think about your subjects as wanting to be the least distorted they can be, then the best perspective is to center the lens in the thing that fills the frame, and have the film plane parallel with the subject also. Hope that helps with your dilemma.</p>

 

<p>The biggest challenge in getting higher is keeping the camera steady. The wedding venue I'm referring to was very dark... Never have figured why churches, supposed to be a point of light in the darkness, are usually so dark inside. Anyway I had 1/30 shutter speeds at f/8 and 2nd curtain off-camera flash, so ghosting and camera shake were kind of a big deal.<br>

Thanks for the link, I might look more at that for the next few weddings.<br>

I do like the stepladder/PVC cup idea. I may try that next.</p>

<p>1/30th isn't that slow a shutter speed to go without the tripod and have the flash freeze subjects. Why did you need second curtain sync?</p>

<p><strong ><em >“[How do you] compensate for having to shoot aiming up when formals are done onstage and you're on the ground.”<br /><br /></em></strong><strong ><em ></em></strong><br>

Other than a ladder or moving back further, another option is to shoot “Hail Mary” or “Doorstop” style – with the camera inverted.<br>

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Perhaps more easily done with a WL Finder / Medium Format but I guess the technique could be adapted to live view DSLRs like the Sony.<br>

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Don’t laugh the technique is quite useful once mastered.<br>

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***<br>

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<strong ><em >“I can't really see anyone using a TS lens,”</em></strong><br>

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I understand this comment was to illustrate the question, rather than offering a day to day easy solution, but just for the record: if you are quite close to the stage and / or it is an high stage: a TS-E lens will be of limited assistance – it cannot change the way the Subject’s Heads are sitting relative to their Spines - i.e. what they are “looking at” – so the result might be neat apropos the verticals but be “odd- looking”. <br>

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*** <br>

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<strong ><em >“The biggest challenge in getting higher is keeping the camera steady. . . Anyway I had 1/30 shutter speeds at f/8 and 2nd curtain off-camera flash, so ghosting and camera shake were kind of a big deal.”</em></strong><br>

</p>

<p>Further to Todd's comment . . .</p>

<p>I have two ladders, on the top step of the larger (7ft) I have bolted a quick release (female) – I can attach a plate to the bottom of a pistol grip or ball head and the ladder becomes my tripod. </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p >* </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p >But to your problem:</p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I do think that 1/30s and Hand Held should be doable with Flash – that is unless your were bleeding a lot of ambient exposure? (you guys say “Dragging the Shutter”)</p>

<p > </p>

<p >So you’ve given us 1/30s @F/8 . . . what was your ISO and what was the Ambient EV? </p>

<p > <br>

 

<p >Also, why were you using 2^nd curtain sync? (oops already asked) – but I am curious too.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >But cutting to the chase: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >You are doing Formals, so I wouldn’t expect that the Subject’s are travelling at any great speed and note that with most SLRs, when Second Curtain Sync is employed AND your are using an automatic Flash Mode using a PREFLASH, the DELAY between the pre-flash and the main Flash is usually noticeably LONGER (than when using First Curtain Sync).</p>

<p > </p>

<p >So: this (longer) delay can cause confusion (to the Subjects) and promote their movement as they consider the shot is “taken” if they are expecting just one flash. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Add this fact to your (perhaps) over zealous Ambient Bleed, and that might be the reasons for your “Ghosting”.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >To further confirm my guess I need to know the ISO and the Ambient EV - and a sample image would assist.</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p >WW </p>

 

<p > </p>

</p>

<p>The ambient was ISO 400, f/2.2 @ 1/125, and the reason I used 2nd curtain was because my flash was being used for fill. It's a manual flash and does not emit a preflash; the main flash is actually quite weak for the distance it needed to travel at f/8 (f/7.1, technically).</p>

<p><img src="http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn279/robertscrivener/McGee_WEB_0207.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>I'm not just terribly proud of these formals either. I had a handful of things that I've never had in combination before - dark ev, high stage, stage curves in a semi-circle, hard tungsten spots... A learning experience, but not one I wish I learned while working.</p>

<p>I don't understand the logic for the second curtain sync. How many flashes were you using and how were you triggering them? In any case, I don't see much evidence of the flashes in the images.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this is the kind of situation where you will need to light up just about everything you want to see in the images, with flash. The spotlights are the problem. You basically have to match the EV, meaning everything else goes into the dark and you can't make use of the ambient. You'd need a flash just to separate the subjects from the background.</p>

<p>How wide was the stage? Could you have pushed people back so you could be on the stage? Or found a spot where the spotlights weren't overpowering? Or kill the spotlights? Lighting with off camera lights, you'd also have the problem of getting them high enough.</p>

<p>OK - thanks for the ambient tech specs. <br>

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My theory of too much ambient exposure capturing subject movement is wrong.<br>

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So addressing <em><strong>"The biggest challenge in getting higher is keeping the camera steady" </strong></em>and looking closely at the sample . . . <br>

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Just look at the static portions, the floor and the archway behind - the floor at their feet does not appear in focus and the archway behind the Subject does appear in focus.<br>

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I think it is Focus error and neither Subject nor Camera movement.<br>

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You could confirm yourself interrogating a better resolution image.<br>

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WW</p>

<p>PS - I still don't see the "need" to apply 2nd curtain sync because the flash was being used as fill - if you would like to give your rationale I am interested - I am guessing I am missing some nuance about layering digital exposures? ? ?</p>

<p>Gidday Nadine . . . and please Hang on a minute my last comments might be taking the wrong information. . . <br>

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Are those shadows (lady left - her hand) from the Tungsten SPOT LIGHTS and not a Flash banging in? ? ? </p>

<p>The Tungsten Spots are part of the AMBIENT light to which I was referring when I asked for specs . . .I meant the AMBIENT LIGHT ILLUMINATING the SUBJECTS. <br>

</p>

<p >Maybe you have given me the “Background Light” tech specs where there is no spot light ? ? ?<br>

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If this is so, then the scenario is as Nadine writes - there is little Flash Fill and the Tungsten spots are actually the Key Light – it appears to me.<br>

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I still reckon there is is a big chance there is a focus error - but yes at 1/30s and mainly illuminated by Tungsten spots they could be swaying also.<br>

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Sorry if we were talking at crossed purposes . . .<br>

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WW</p>

<p>Consider getting a monolight of at least 300 ws. You could use it bare bulb for a large group.</p>

<p>My reason for 2nd curtain was so that my ambient would expose the majority of the image and then flash would provide enough fill to reduce eye, nose and chin shadows. I didn't want a harsh light dropoff by underexposing ambient, nor was my flash powerful enough to illuminate higher than ambient for the group sizes I had (not including the shot above).I'm curious why you are curious about the curtain sync.. What advantages do you propose 1st curtain would have had in this instance?<br>

I shot one flash on camera left or right, depending on the group (black tuxes, light dresses) and triggered it with a radio xmitter. Bare flash, tungsten gelled. Unfortunately I couldn't do the formals anywhere else.. The groom was very specific in telling me his wife had always wanted a church wedding and that outside formals wouldn't be ideal for them. I also didn't have enough flash power to kill the spots.<br>

The spots are key, yes. Checking some of the other images, stage ambient was about 1/25 @ f/4 and ISO400. The flash provided enough illumination to raise the f/stop to around f/6.3-f/8.<br>

This is really a tangent to the OP - I'm totally okay with the direction it's going in though and appreciate the feedback.</p>

<p>William W.--got to consider all factors here, so more eyes, the better. I can't tell about the focus from these kinds of images online, so you might very well be right about the focus. And it just looks to me like the spotlights were what lit the image, more than flash.</p>

<p>Robert--I assume you know what second curtain sync does. That being the case, I am scratching my head as to why it is necessary here. I thought perhaps it had to do with your triggering needs. But when applied to using the flash as fill, I can't think why second curtain would do anything different from first curtain, for that purpose. The result would be the same, as far as fill illumination. Second curtain, combined with first curtain (I assume your manual flashes were first curtain), could cause problems with moving subjects (ghosting, with 2 distinct flash images). So while first curtain would have no advantage, by itself, keeping all flashes on first curtain would avoid the ghosting problem, if using multiple flash, and possibly avoid blinking and/or ghosting (flash and ambient) caused by subjects thinking the shot was taken (hearing the shutter open), and moving before the flash goes off.</p>

<p>Also, ISO 800 isn't ideal on the 20D, but OK, as long as you don't underexpose. I might have gone to ISO 800. f8 is also a bit of overkill for DOF with a cropped sensor camera, unless you were shooting rows of people. Even f4 for a single row like this works fine.</p>

<p>As for moving the groups, I wasn't talking about outside. I have asked people to move the arch (and plants) before, based on bad locations for formals. They usually do it willingly, because they want good formals. You don't have to bring all the electrical stuff with the arch, either. So move the arch back so you can get on the stage, if you want the dark curtains, and/or avoid the spotlights, or move the whole thing down on the floor, with perhaps a lighter background (front part of the stage or steps), which would help your separation problem if you still had to match the spotlight EV. Or use the first two steps as your 'altar' and group people around. Usually, the spotlights aren't so bad on the floor either.</p>

<p><em><strong>"I'm curious why you are curious about the curtain sync.. What advantages do you propose 1st curtain would have had in this instance?"</strong></em><br /><br />I did not propose there would be any advantage – I was not au fait with the entire shooting scenario. I thought my previous had explained that – but as you asked a direct question my meaning explained another way: <br /><br />I asked the question as to why you were using second curtain sync because (if you were) using an automatic Flash then the delay between the pre flash and the exposing flash could cause subject movement and, if the Tv was slow enough and the Ambient EV was intense enough then those combination of factors could account for the resultant problems you cited in your follow up explanatory post <br /><br /><em>“</em><em>The biggest challenge in getting higher is keeping the <strong>camera steady</strong>. The wedding venue I'm referring to was very dark... Never have figured why churches, supposed to be a point of light in the darkness, are usually so dark inside. <strong>Anyway I had 1/30 shutter</strong> speeds at f/8 and 2nd curtain off-camera flash, <strong>so ghosting and camera shake were kind of a big deal.</strong></em><em>”</em><br /><br />I looked beyond your assumptions that Camera shake was the problem and I sought to investigate ALL possibilities to assist solving your problem and thus I went to question the possibility of <em>Subject Movement</em> being misinterpreted for <em>camera shake</em><br />It was not until after you revealed that the Flash was in manual mode and no pre flash was fired, and it also was not until after that you posted a sample of the problem images that I could conclude that Flash Sync choice was not a relevant factor in this particular problem.<br /><br />*** <br /><br />In this shooting scenario with the gear you describe I can see no “advantage” in using 1^st curtain sync to 2^nd curtain sync.<br /><br />My cameras all have a standard “rest mode” and for the Flash Sync it is 1st Curtain sync. This means, if I have NO reason for changing that I don’t. <br /><br />In this shooting scenario, I would have no reason and therefore I would not make any unnecessary change- but that is the way I work, with minimalist technical movements. <br /><br />Or expressed another way - I effect a change to my gear only if that change is required and then I return to the “Rest Mode” settings - working this way I know where things are and what mode they are in, without thinking – this method does not work for all Photographers.<br /><br />***<br /><br />Also, on another point, in your follow up post you mention off camera Flash, (singular) so I assumed you had only one:<br /><em>“</em><em>Anyway I had 1/30 shutter speeds at f/8 and 2nd curtain <strong>off-camera flash</strong>, so ghosting and camera shake were kind of a big deal.</em><em> </em></p>

<p>But . . . in your last text you are using on camera Flash:<br /><em>“</em><em>I shot <strong>one flash on camera</strong> left or right, depending on the group (black tuxes, light dresses) and triggered it with a radio xmitter. </em><em></em><br /><em></em><br />As a result of this seemingly conflicting information, I am confused as to the exact shooting and lighting scenario, but my confusion might not bear on your solution to the (maybe) soft / OoF / Motion Blur / Camera shake issues which you are concerned about. <br /><br />Have you checked the focus / Out of Focus issue I mentioned?<br /><em></em><br /><em>WW</em></p>

 

<p>I see what you mean about the ambiguous statement regarding the number of flashes. I meant to state that I used ONE flash, but moved it from left to right as needed, based upon the area with greatest need for fill.<br>

It's possible I was slightly OOF, but very unlikely. All of the formals were shot with a Canon 20D and 17-40 f/4, with a minimum f/stop of f/6.3, using center focus point and focus-recompose, on a tripod.<br>

I do agree with you that my "camera shake" is most likely "subject movement." I should have raised the ISO to 800 to get a little higher shutter speed given my lighting - 1/30 is not kind to me, and never has been, no matter if it's on a tripod or not.<br>

<br /></p>

<p>Considering the shooting scenario and the information provided and especially these two facts:</p>

<p>> Flash is providing relatively a little fill for the key (spot lights)<br />> Tv =1/30s</p>

<p>I conclude that the main problem you encountered was Subject Movement.</p>

<p>Though you should not rule out that in some images there might have been an accumulation of factors, (for example I only viewed and then commented on one image and it could be that image is slightly OoF - as well as there being some Subject Movement.)</p>

<p>In this regard and referring to the following:<br /><br /><em>"All of the formals were shot with a </em><strong><em>Canon 20D</em></strong><em> and 17-40 f/4, with a minimum f/stop of f/6.3, using </em><strong><em>center focus point</em></strong><em> and focus-recompose, </em><strong><em>on a tripod. . . 1/30 is not kind to me,</em></strong> <em>and never has been,</em> <strong><em>no matter if it's on a tripod or not."</em></strong><br /><strong><em></em></strong><strong></strong><br /><strong>You might consider these three points:</strong><br /><strong></strong><br />> 20D is known to give crazy focus at the centre point AF – (but that is more prevalent using wider FL lenses.)</p>

<p>> (the issue above is because) The "red square" is inaccurate regrading where the AF point is actually located, - (but at F/6.3 and for a full length vertical shot you should have about 5ft DoF so this is an unlikely issue for this scenario as it is assumed that there was a large area of a person’s body around the red square each time you focussed)</p>

<p>> Ever had the 20D’s mirror box assembly replaced or is it the original. If the original it might be a little tired and worn –please read comments here regarding Mirror Slap: <a href="../wedding-photography-forum/00VsBE">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VsBE</a> (my post Feb 28, 2010; 07:25 p.m.)</p>

<p>I have tested my 20D (albeit using a longer lens and subject at a farther distance than 10ft to 12 ft), but mirror slap was present at 1/30s. I still have the original Mirror Box Assembly and I have shot about 40,000 images- just over 40 actually.</p>

<p><em>I consider that Mirror Slap might well factor as a contributing cause in your problems - in this case and previously.</em></p>

<p>***</p>

<p>(Sharp eyes/thinking, Nadine: picking up on the 20D. I am annoyed at myself that I did not get on to the fact a 20D was being used.)</p>

<p>I agree that ISO800 on a 20D is not all that great for “Formals” – if you ever need to use ISO800 for Formals (or any image requiring 10 x 8 or larger), the make sure you nail the exposure: I would go 1/3 stop over on the highlights of the Wedding Gown, especially if the EV range is great, and shoot RAW and recover the highlights from RAW.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>