Folders vs TLR

Hi,

I have been using 35mm for several years and now I want to try medium

format. I have pretty much decided on buying a used inexpensive camera

from ebay. I am finally debating between a YashicaMat and some of the

folders (Isolette and Ikonta). Though I believe the TLRs will have a

better quality but I can't ignore the portability of the folders

either as I would like to use it outdoors too. How much do I lose in

quality or some other repsect by using a folder? Will the Ikonta 520

or 515 compare well to say a Yashicamat?

I have tried looking elsewhere in the forums and didn't find an answer

to this question. If it has been discussed before then I would really

appreciate if someone can guide me to the relevant thread and excuse

me for my negligence.

Thanks

I think you'll find that working with either choice will be quite different than 35mm. I always feel more deliberate with the TLR. I have a few Zeiss folders and I like to carry them for their portability. Compared to the Rolleicords that are quite good. The Yashica lens you want are the Yashinons, from what I understand.

If deciding is difficult, try one of each. They are quite inexpensive and everyone should try a TLR sometime.

Yes, why not try both? And if you're looking for a folder on eBay, Jurgen Krekel's are

supposed to be great. It's his labor of love to take these 50+ year old cameras and restore

them into working condition. His "CLA'd" -- clean, adjusted and lubricated -- MF folders

are more expensive then the other ones offered on eBay but you can be certain that they're

going to work. I just won a Certo Six MF folder from him on eBay this week!

 

Jurgen's site:

www.certo6.com

I have both and prefer TLRs both for actual shooting and results.

 

Folders with 4 elements lenses, rangefinders and semi-auto film advance exist but are rare and expensive. Ordinary plain 'red window' are cheap, slow to use and usually have tiny viewer. Filters and hoods are also hard to find.

 

They still can be fun and have good results, especially in black and white. Unlike TLRs (all 6x6), they also come in 645 and 6x9. They are smaller but some are quite heavy (for the size)

 

TLRs have waist level finders. They are nice if you ware glasses but some are dim. It is very hard to follow a subject because of the reverse image (left-right). They are very silent and less intrusive to people (kind of psychological effect).

 

For lanscape or far away subjects, a folder is fine but for portrait or shots from 5 to 15 feet, the TLR is much better. The best 3 elements and all 4 elements (like the vYashica Mat) are great cameras and most of the time great value.

 

They are often described as entry-level medium format but they are good enough for serious use. A friend of mine is using more his Yashica Mat and less his Hasselblad these days because he find it quicker to focus, silent and much lighter to carry all day.

 

Rolleiflex with Planar or Xenotar are even better (by a small margin)but much more expensive.

>I just won a Certo Six MF folder from him on eBay this week!<

 

Let's not take the marketing crap too far. You paid for it, and top bucks at that.

The Tessar lenses in the older Ikontas are capable of excellent results. There is a difference in shooting styles when using a folder vs. a TLR or an SLR. Think about that when making your selection.

 

Most are reasonably priced, so it's very possible for you to own both a folder and a TLR. For the price of a Canon 20D body, you can buy roughly 10 to 15 folding cameras or five to seven Rolleiflexes ... film not included.

You got some more reasonably priced ones Hank?

Hello All, I'd like to butt in here and put in a word for the Minolta Autocords or Zeiss Ikon Ikoflexes as a choice for the TLR side and the Zeiss Ikon Nettars on the folder side. I have a few of each and find them to be superb picture takers. AND the prices are on the lower end of reasonable. I think you get "a lotta bang for your buck" with any of these cameras.

 

The Autocords have had a good reputation for excellent quality lenses and I find the the feel the most solid of the Japanese TLRs. It's quite easy to find a good one and a fellow Photo.net member, Karl A. Bryan, does a superb job of servicing them. If you look for a later model with a Optiper MVL or Citizen MVL shutter you cannot go wrong.

 

The Ikoflexes are also one of my favorite TLRs but you have to look a little harder. They are not so easy to find in good condition as are the Autocord. I have a Ia with a Tessar lens and Prontor shutter from the early 1950's and a IIa (2nd version) with a Tessar lens and Compur-Rapid shutter from the mid-late 1950's and wouldn't part with either for anything. When looking one over be sure to check the viewing mirror as many have been known to need replacing. Neither of mine did so I was lucky.

 

My choice of Zeiss Ikon Nettars for a folding camera was based on a number of things, not the least of which was what you mentioned Himanshu...Portability. If you want a medium format along when you go hiking, skiing or what have you, then I don't think you can beat a Nettar. They are basic and on the lower end cost wise of the Zeiss Ikon folder output but by no means lower quality. If you look for a 518/16 (6x6) with a Novar lens and a Prontor, Prontor S, SV or SVS shutter you will have an excellent camera that you can stow in your back-pack and it will never let you down. The Ikontas are nice but to me the extra stuff kind of defeats the purpose of a lighter portable MF camera. The built in meters mostly do not work anymore so you will surely carry a hand held one anyway or get good at the 'sunny 16' rule, so why have the extra weight? The built-in rangefinders are handy but do you really need one for that grand vista? It's amasing how fast one can become an expert at estimating distance with very little practice. I only ask these questions to incite thought, someone else may find very different needs than I and that is the way it should be.

 

Another point in favor of the Nettar for me was the condition the cameras were in. I found it a lot easier to find a Nettar, in very good condition, than a Ikonta or Super Ikonta. The latter were more expensive in their time and therefore may have been purchased by professional or more serious photographers and thus received much more use. My three Nettars (6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9) were all in excellent almost unused condition when I got them and after a CLA are extreamly accurate mechanically. (Too bad their present owner cannot say the same about himself.)

 

A third point was the purchase cost. I got all three Nettars with CLAs for less that the cost of one good Ikonta. See Mark Hansen for the best servicing on these.

 

As far as quality of the photo taken by the TLR vs Folder, I find I can get stunning results with both. (And real bad results as well...there we are back to the operator error). They are different in some ways but to me the difference is more in the way the camera is used rather than the quality of the actual photograph taken. I did an experiment trying to answer the question posed above. I loaded my Autocord Model I and my Nettar 518/16 with the same film (Fuji Velvia) and took the same scene with each camera. I really had a hard time telling which was which. I would say, in my test, the Autocord photos are slightly sharper, a little more contrast maybe??...(the lens coating is more modern) but the Nettar has it's own positives such as a very pleasing bokeh, a kind of dreamy quality to the out of focus areas, for example the background. I find it a beautiful quality. Some may not. I don't think any quality is lost in one over the other, I think one gains another different quality and that can lead to more artistic options.

 

I say go for the TLR of your choice, save a little out for a folder (ie. Nettar;)and have all the fun of both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Folders tend to get whacked far out of adjustment over the years--the comparisons above

are valid comparing CLA'd and adjusted folders to good TLRs, but if you just want a cheap

beater, TLRs are far less likely to have stealth problems like inaccurate focus or a lens no

longer parallel to the film plane.

 

But I prefer rangefinders to either of them--I have an addiction to the Mamiya Press series

that'd make a crackhead blush. Koni-Omegas are good too. Although with either you're

back into the issue of having to check focusing accuracy before really using them, there is

a step-by-step guide to adjusting the later Super 23 and Universal posted a couple of

times here on photo.net--it's really not rocket science--I can do it in a half-hour, and that

includes 15 minutes looking for dropped screws in the carpet :)

 

The Mamiya's most common 90/3.5 and 100/3.5 are about the equal of other Tessar 4/3

designs out there. When you have a little more money you can get the 100/2.8, the world's

best deal on a Planar design, way ahead of Tessars, especially wide-open. There's also a

great Biogon-clone 50mm, although at $400 that's not exactly cheap anymore.

Either type are capable of very good results, and having the much larger film size really does make a difference.

 

Each comes with its own set of potential problems, so do a bit of reading as to what are the respective weak points (bellows on Agfa folders for example).

 

If you want to try first, to get the feel of things, avoid the cameras favoured by collectors, as you are paying a premium for something that is not always better.

 

The best bang for the buck in folders are probably the Russian Moskva 5 and Iskra (which is one of the best folders around), but you will have to be careful where you buy them from. Both offer coupled rangefinders, the Moskva has separate VF and RF windows and can do 6x6 and 6x9. The Iskra has a nice big bright RF and automated film winding (which can be a weak point - make sure this is working - it can only be tested with a film). Against "logic", you are often better buying direct from FSU sellers with good reputations rather than US or European sellers.

 

Another good option is the Zeiss Ercona II, but this has no RF, just guess focusing. You can buy an accessory RF of course. These come with very good lenses. Also some of the higher end Baldas & Frankas, or for something a bit different a Braun Gloria. This has a coupled RF, but has its lens on a pull out metal tube instead of bellows.

 

As for TLRs, the Yashicas are a good place to start, along with Minoltas and the later Flexarets Meopta (some of which have 35mm inserts as well). The Mamiya C2x and C3x series are very capable with interchangeable lenses, but are somewhat heavier.

 

Another option may be to look at a 2x3 press camera. Make sure you get a graflok back, so you can more easily fit a roll film back (6x6,6x7 or 6x9). You can swap lenses on these, and use RF or ground-glass focusing. They are a bit larger than the TLRs, but not much heavier, and they were designed to be hand-held.

 

Personally, I like the folders for their portability, and always have at least one with me when travelling (I always have the Iskra with me).

 

Good luck, it is great fun using these old cameras, and a great way of meeting people in the street - they seem fascinated about these old cameras.

 

 

Head on over to the Classic Camera forum, there is lots of friendly advice there. Plus some surprisingly good results from surprisingly cr@p cameras :-)

 

 

Paul

Thank you all so much for the elaborate responses. I have found some very useful pieces of information here and it definitely helped me made a better decision. I think i agree with everyone here that I should try my hands at both of them, each of them I guess is too good to miss. I was so far planning on buying a yashicamat 124 or something similar with a yashinon lens but after reading the responses I will go and have a look at Autocord and Ikoflex more seriously. From my first look at Ebay, Autocords seem to be more expensive than the yashicas and there are simply very few Ikoflexes. I am keeping my eyes open for a good deal on these cameras.

Based on the comments of many here I chose a Zeiss Ikon over Isolette. Fortunately I found a good deal on ebay for a CLA'd Ikon Nettar 515, 6x4.5 with a Tessar f4.5 75mm lens. So I went ahead and bought it.

I think I made a good choice, right? :-) So, now I am waiting for my camera to arrive and then of course I will put up some pictures here(good or bad) and meanwhile I keep looking for a TLR.

Anything that I should be careful about with a Nettar 515? Any tips/suggestions for improving picture quality would be most welcome.

I thank you all once again for your suggestions. I look forward to such insightful discussions in future.

Congratulations Himanshu! If you got a good one (sounds like you did)and you like it then you made a good choice. One problem though...I started with the 515 and before I knew it I had a whole family of Nettars. Five in all. A 6x4.5, two 6x6, a 6x9 and a 6x9 I am converting to a pinhole camera.

The 515 is still my favorite as it is very pocketable being about the size of a point and shoot or mid/small size digital. The lens on mine is the Nettar Anastigmat which is not supposed to be as good as the Tessar but I think it is no second rate lens for sure. The only thing I had a small problem with at first was the two window system in the back to read the photo number. I rolled the numbers to the same window and ended up only getting 8 shots with every second one blank. You have to put the number in the first window, take the photo and roll the same number to the second window for photo number two. And so on to the end.

 

The lens takes 35.5mm SCREW ON filters. A little hard to find but with a little searching you can find what you need. You can use the more modern style filters that have threads on both sides, they work fine. These screw over the rough ring at the front of the lens. It appears to be decoration or ridges to help grasp the focus ring but look closely it's really threads.

 

Mine has the focus marked in meters so if yours does also and you live where you use inches and feet...a meter is very close to 39 and 1/2 inches. A bit over a yard.

 

And I have a couple old Nettar owner manuals so if you need a copy, email me and I'll head off to the photocopy machine. (I think the copy right on them has run out by now;)

 

Have fun and enjoy your new toy.

 

Scot.

roseberryguitars@telus.net

I agree with some of the above comments regarding the Zeiss Nettar with Novar lens. When stopped down(f8)it can produce spectacular results. I have two pre-1945 Ikontas with uncoated Tessar lenses and two 50's vintage Nettars (coated). I can't say at this point that the cost difference between a Tessar and Novar is justified from a purely-for-the-purpose-of-taking-good-photos point of view.