Flash Recommendations for Bronica S2

Newbee to site and newbee to Bronica S2. Acquired a beautiful kit... film backs, 2 finders, grip, 3 lenses, filters... even a manual! Total amateur. Looking at it all wondering how to go about it all. Used to shoot film with a Pentax ME Super... pretty automatic. Don't even have my 1st Bronica roll developed yet, but shot 5 rolls in 3 days! Lol! Was wondering about an inexpensive and decent flash for use with this totally mechanical/manual flash. I've seen a couple recommendations. I'm thinking Metz 45 CL-1. How does a flash like this work with a sync cable to the camera? I mean, the camera cannot send a signal since it is totally mechanical, so how does a flash work? Does the shutter mechanism close a circuit with the flash providing the power for the circuit?

Does the shutter mechanism close a circuit with the flash providing the power for the circuit?

 

Exactly that. The flashgun sends a voltage to the camera, called the synch or trigger voltage. When the shutter operates it shorts the contacts and triggers the flash.

 

The Metz flash is powerful if rather cumbersome, however the rechargeable battery packs on these are now getting old and often don't retain charge. I would prefer a flashgun which takes AA batteries, as most do. I'll leave others to disagree or make recommendations.

 

Something to watch is the trigger voltage - high voltages can damage electronic and digital cameras although the Bronica should be fine. There's a website which lists trigger voltages for different flashes, giving the CL1 trigger voltage as 7.6V. Some old flashes can go as high as 300V.

 

LINK: Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

 

I don't know the S2 that well but cameras from that era usually have two settings for the flash synch, X is for electronic flash, M or FP for flashbulbs which take a finite time to reach full intensity, so the flash needs firing slightly before the shutter opens. If you use B for electronic flash, which is pretty much instantaneous, it will fire before the shutter opens. Note also the S2 has a focal plane shutter which needs the speed to be 1/40 sec or slower (check the manual about this). Use a higher speed and the flash will fire when one or both shutter curtains are still covering part of the frame, resulting in black areas on the picture..

Edited May 10, 2020 by John Seaman

Thanks, John. Well, that's the only thing that makes sense, closes/completes circuit. I wonder how the 1/40 comes into play. Something that was somehow designed or just measured? The Metz CL45-1 looks like it uses 6 AA (replaceable) batteries in a battery pack. Today's rechargeables should work. Might cost more than the flash, too! ;)

If you can get a Metz with replaceable batteries, all well and good.

 

A focal plane shutter works with two curtains just in front of the film. When the shutter operates, the first curtain moves across the film gate to open the shutter and expose the film. Then the second curtain moves across to close it again. At slower speeds the second curtain only starts to move after the first curtain has cleared, so for a time the whole film gate is exposed. However at faster speeds the second curtain starts BEFORE the first curtain has cleared. As speed increases the curtains move closer together , effectively moving a slit across at the highest speeds. So if the flash is fired while this is going on, one or both of the curtains will block part of the frame, preventing the flash from reaching the film.

 

The speed at which this happens depends on the design of the shutter, but for larger focal plane shutters it's inevitably going to be rather slow. The fastest speed usable with flash is called the flash sync speed, for the S2 it's 1/40 according to the internet. Cameras with leaf shutters in or just behind the lens can sync at all speeds - but that's another story.

I still use Vivitar 283 and 285 flashes. They are plentiful and inexpensive and have never let me down. They use AA batteries and are pretty rugged. Lots of accessories available to do just about anything you would want.

I really can't recommend a Metz 45 CT or CL. They were great in their day, but that day is well past.

 

They're heavy, cumbersome, slow to recycle and slow to charge their batteries. The batteries still around have a very low capacity by today's standard, and most likely will be on their last legs or entirely dead. Replacements are expensive, or a complete pain to DIY replace the cells in.

 

Also the '45' Guide Number claim is completely bogus. They have a GN of 36(metres) at the very most.

 

A Sunpak 622 would be a better choice if you really want a hammerhead flash. Otherwise there are plenty of other options. A YongNuo 560 for one, or any of Canon or Nikon's pre-digital top line speedlights/lites.

 

BTW. The Vivitar 283/285 have no head swivel, which can be an issue if you ever use bounce flash. They also need modules to change mode from manual to auto-exposure. Almost no other flash does. They're also less powerful than a modern YN560, or any major camera brand top-line flash. Taking AA cells is no major 'feature'. Nearly every other speedlight ever made uses AA cells.

Edited May 11, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

The Metz CL45-1 looks like it uses 6 AA (replaceable) batteries in a battery pack.

 

When buying the Metz 45 CL 1, you had two choices -

 

45 CL 1 NC (with NiCad battery and charger)

45 CL 1 BAT (with battery holder for 6 x AA)

 

The Flash-heads in each pack were the same and you can use the 6xAA battery pack (code 'battery holder 35-49') with either.

 

There is also an optional mains power unit.

 

***

 

Today's rechargeables should work.

 

I wouldn't rush to do that.

 

Metz, in their User Manual specifically note -

 

"The battery housing must not be fitted with NiCatl batteries! The contacts of the battery housing are only intended for alkatine manganese batteries.The lower resistance of NiCad batteries means that more current can flow, and this can damage the flashgun. The Nicad Battery pack 45-40 has special contacts which do not allow the flow of high currents."

That's only part of it. The placement of the physical contacts differ between the Metz Rechargeable Pack and the AA Alkaline Battery Holder.

 

A long time ago, when these Metz Hammerheads were the go to standard issue, many of the AA Alkaline Battery Holders were DIY modified to allow the use of rechargeable AA batteries. If a Metz Hammerhead is the path you want to follow, then research this point: it is not a big job and I am sure that somewhere in the www there will be a picture or two. I'd photograph mine, but my Metz AA Battery Holders (and guns) are in storage, goodness only knows why they're not in the recycling bin.

 

***

 

Bottom line - I agree with rodeo joe I reckon you'd be better to get a pre-digital Speedlite.

 

WW

Thanks. Definitely now leaning toward vintage Vivitar 283 or 285. I was thinking the way the Metz, or other grip type flash raised the flash above the lens it would better eliminate red eye more than a short stubby flash. Appreciate.

I really can't recommend a Metz 45 CT or CL. They were great in their day, but that day is well past.

 

They're heavy, cumbersome, slow to recycle and slow to charge their batteries. The batteries still around have a very low capacity by today's standard, and most likely will be on their last legs or entirely dead. Replacements are expensive, or a complete pain to DIY replace the cells in.

 

Also the '45' Guide Number claim is completely bogus. They have a GN of 36(metres) at the very most.

 

A Sunpak 622 would be a better choice if you really want a hammerhead flash. Otherwise there are plenty of other options. A YongNuo 560 for one, or any of Canon or Nikon's pre-digital top line speedlights/lites.

 

BTW. The Vivitar 283/285 have no head swivel, which can be an issue if you ever use bounce flash. They also need modules to change mode from manual to auto-exposure. Almost no other flash does. They're also less powerful than a modern YN560, or any major camera brand top-line flash. Taking AA cells is no major 'feature'. Nearly every other speedlight ever made uses AA cells.

The Vivitar 285 will go from auto to manual by simply turning the ring around the sensor, it doesn't require any accessories to do this.

I was thinking the way the Metz, or other grip type flash raised the flash above the lens it would better eliminate red eye more than a short stubby flash.

 

You can buy an "L" Flash Bracket for 2/6d, (for a few dollars), which would raise the Vivitar as high, or higher than the Metz and at about the same offset. How I'd typically used my Vivitar Flash on my Mamyia 645 1000s.

 

For a bit more money you can buy a Flash Bracket Arm with a Quick Release on its base, should you want to hold the Flash (mounted on the bracket's pole) out further away from the Camera and/or higher than the lens.

 

WW

Edited May 11, 2020 by William Michael

Thanks, John. Well, that's the only thing that makes sense, closes/completes circuit. I wonder how the 1/40 comes into play. Something that was somehow designed or just measured? The Metz CL45-1 looks like it uses 6 AA (replaceable) batteries in a battery pack. Today's rechargeables should work. Might cost more than the flash, too! ;)

The shutter timing is measured. Leaf shutters (.e.g. Hasselblad) can usually X-sync at speeds up to 1/500 sec. However, the focal plane shutters have to move from one side of the film plane to the other. Timing has to be while the shutter curtains are wide open, otherwise, part of the image will be hidden, therefore unexposed. Your Pentax ME Super is an example of exposure speed limits. Today, shutter speed limits have raised dramatically, but in the beginning X-sync was as slow as 1/30th.

BTW. The Vivitar 283/285 have no head swivel' date=' which can be an issue if you ever use bounce flash. They also need modules to change mode from manual to auto-exposure...[/quote']

The Vivitar 285 will go from auto to manual by simply turning the ring around the sensor, it doesn't require any accessories to do this.

The standard sensor module has 4 automatic levels, and full power manual setting.

 

The option modules allows manual fractional power, or remote sensor automatic. Many of the current flashes have fractional manual power included.

 

The Vivitar 283/285 was one of the longest production electronic flashes because it was reliable, affordable, and powerful, and is still available as the Cactus KF36 (at least it is not listed as discontinued yet). I have used them since the 70's (!!!) when they had a 260V trigger. My current 283 has an 8V trigger that is compatible with current digital cameras. I still use it. Us old dogs like setting the power manually when shooting outdoors or ambient - and this was one of the 1st reliable portable flashes for that. And the auto sensor worked pretty well too.

Edited May 11, 2020 by tom_chow

Other than their loud noise, the only drawback of medium format cameras with focal plane shutters is limited versatility with flash: as noted above, flash sync with the old Bronica S2 is no higher than 1/40th sec, many similar cameras are stuck at 1/30th, a few modern 645 format bodies get to 1/60th. This is usually fine for brute force photojournalist style flash work, where you want the flash to completely overpower the ambient light, but even in that mode a slow flash sync speed of 1/40th can sometimes reveal blur from the secondary ambient exposure. Within the stated limitations, this can be manageable: millions of professional flash photos were taken with 35mm SLRs and rangefinders with 1/60th max sync speed.

 

It seems unlikely you're interested in more elaborate flash setups like daylight fill for outdoor portraits, or you would not have chosen the Bronica S2 with its slow sync focal plane shutter. But if at some future point you do require more flash versatility, there is a workaround (albeit somewhat rare and a bit pricey). Bronica offered a dedicated "flash lens" for the S2 camera, a 105mm f/3.5 Nikkor with its own built-in leaf shutter that syncs with flash up to 1/500th sec (comparable to the Hasselblad and Mamiya RB/RZ studio cameras). The lens shutter overrides the focal plane shutter, giving you more options. This lens typically sells for approx $300 if you can find it, so perhaps not something you'd add to a "bargain" s2 outfit: it might be more cost effective to buy a separate, more portable, quieter TLR backup camera for those times you need 1/500th leaf shutter for more flexible medium format flash work.

 

BTW, be sure to shoot a test roll with this S2 camera before you rely on it for a critical project. The S2 body design has an Achilles Heel: the foam cushions underneath the focus screen frame and mirror plate disintegrate over the years, which can throw off focus (viewfinder looks sharp but pics are a bit soft, most often near infinity). Take a series of test shots at mid to far distance, of subjects that would easily reveal focus errors on the film. If everything looks good, the camera is ready to use, if not, you'll need to replace the rotted foams at the screen and/or mirror, to align the viewfinder focus point to the film plane. It isn't that difficult to DIY, but its a bit tricky: tutorials are available at various Bronica enthusiast sites.

Edited May 11, 2020 by orsetto

Hmm. I would look for a Nikon SB24 or SB25. Because they aren't compatible with digital SLR's in TTL mode, they can often be found quite cheaply. They are powerful and versatile with excellent non-TTL auto modes, and full manual control. Also with full tilt and swivel and zoom settings..

Bronica offered a dedicated "flash lens" for the S2 camera, a 105mm f/3.5 Nikkor with its own built-in leaf shutter that syncs with flash up to 1/500th sec (comparable to the Hasselblad and Mamiya RB/RZ studio cameras). The lens shutter overrides the focal plane shutter, giving you more options. This lens typically sells for approx $300 if you can find it, so perhaps not something you'd add to a "bargain" s2 outfit: it might be more cost effective to buy a separate, more portable, quieter TLR backup camera for those times you need 1/500th leaf shutter for more flexible medium format flash work.

 

BTW, be sure to shoot a test roll with this S2 camera before you rely on it for a critical project. The S2 body design has an Achilles Heel: the foam cushions underneath the focus screen frame and mirror plate disintegrate over the years, which can throw off focus (viewfinder looks sharp but pics are a bit soft, most often near infinity). Take a series of test shots at mid to far distance, of subjects that would easily reveal focus errors on the film. If everything looks good, the camera is ready to use, if not, you'll need to replace the rotted foams at the screen and/or mirror, to align the viewfinder focus point to the film plane. It isn't that difficult to DIY, but its a bit tricky: tutorials are available at various Bronica enthusiast sites.

 

Thanks. I am already aware of the disintegrating foam and replaced that behind the focus mat frame, but not the mirror. I do the same on vintage speaker woofers as the foam surrounds disintegrate on them over time, as well. Haven't seen any prints yet. I find the S2 sooooo difficult to focus! ... especially in low light, but even in bright light! I want to replace the focusing glass with a split image aid. I am NOT looking forward to removing that frame again! Wow! Getting those washers and screws in place again is a nightmare! I will begin keeping a eye out for the Nikkor 105mm leaf shutter lens. Thanks!

I want to replace the focusing glass with a split image aid. I am NOT looking forward to removing that frame again!!

 

It can be difficult to find really good replacement screens the exact size needed by the S2. It uses a square screen just a hair larger than for a Hasselblad 500c (not the 500cm and later Hasselblads that have metal-framed user-changed screens, the earlier fixed frameless 500c/500el size). When I still owned my Bronnie kit of S2A and Bronica C (budget S2 without removable back), I settled on the Ukrainian "Arsenal" split/micro screen offered for the Kiev 88 Hasselblad clone. This is a nice bright screen with a good split. Installation was rather fussy, due to the Hasselblad size being a hair too small (squaring the crop lines and keeping the focus aids straight while refitting the S2 screen retaining frame is still a source of recurring nightmares).

 

Today, I think the most sensible USA/Canada choice is the BrightScreen available from Rick Oleson. He makes a good, reasonably-priced screen in custom sizes for many medium format SLRs and TLRs. One of his standard size offerings is for the S2, which you can customize with your choice of crop lines or grid lines (or no lines). Cost is approx $80, about what you'd pay for a mfr brand replacement screen in any contemporary system (and a fraction of what people ask for a Hasselblad Acute Matte).

 

Custom Fitted Focusing Screens

Today, I think the most sensible USA/Canada choice is the BrightScreen available from Rick Oleson. He makes a good, reasonably-priced screen in custom sizes for many medium format SLRs and TLRs. One of his standard size offerings is for the S2, which you can customize with your choice of crop lines or grid lines (or no lines). Cost is approx $80, about what you'd pay for a mfr brand replacement screen in any contemporary system (and a fraction of what people ask for a Hasselblad Acute Matte).

 

Custom Fitted Focusing Screens

 

Thanks for that vote. I did my homework and Rick Oleson's BrightScreen is the one I've already settled on. Appreciate. For those reading this thread for advice in the same area here's Rick's link: Custom Fitted Focusing Screens

I want to replace the focusing glass with a split image aid. I am NOT looking forward to removing that frame again!

 

Just a word of warning, the good available screens (Brightscreens as mentioned by orsetto, or other Russians/Chinese screens available online) are single piece acrylic screens that have an integrated Fresnel effect with the image plane on the bottom (like all modern screens). The Bronics S's have an acrylic Fresnel layer in the optical path, under the ground glass. This means that when you replace it with a single layer screen, you will need to shim it further away, a distance that is the difference between the optical path in the acrylic and the equivalent length in air (which is longer). Its about 30% of the thickness of the acrylic Fresnel plate.

 

Although I agree that a properly installed modern screen makes the camera much nicer to use, I would recommend learning to use the existing screen first - the ground glass + Fresnel plate is not bad, very usable for it's time. Upgrading the screen requires a proper shim and calibration, which is not a trivial job. If those screws and washers for the screen were considered a pain, wait till you shim and calibrated a focus screen.

Edited May 18, 2020 by tom_chow

tom_chow cited an important point to remember when changing the S2 series focus screen: if you use anything but a similar piece of frosted ground glass, prepare for a lot of fussing and fiddling. Unlike other cameras of the era that sandwiched a condenser/fresnel against the screen, the S2 has a floating separate fresnel plate hovering under the ground glass. If you switch to a more modern thin plastic screen with integrated fresnel, you'll likely need to omit the old fresnel plate and fiddle with the new screen positioning until you get the screen focus to line up with the film plane (use the old ground glass taped to the film aperture to compare).

 

This was my S2A after I installed the Arsenal screen with bright split/micro center and 645 crop lines (the Oleson BrightScreen would be a better choice today, esp because he is an S2 enthusiast himself and can advise on proper installation):

 

Hmmmmm. Thanks for the wisdom, orsetto and Tom_Chow. Are we saying that the Rick Oleson BrightScreen/fresnel replacement does not go under the original Bronica ground glass plate, but stands alone?

Per Rick Oleson: "The screen thickness is not an issue in the Bronica - that concern applies mainly to older twin lens reflex cameras." Maybe the mirror being off because of the disintegrated rubber behind it was the cause of the focusing problem, but shimming the focus screens helped?

It isn't the thickness so much as the the exact projection of the viewfinder image on the screen in relation to the mirror and film plane. The sensitivity of this depends on the particular camera model's original viewfinder design and the design of your replacement. The original ground glass and separate fresnel plate of the S2 is slightly twitchier to replace with modern updates than a camera thats relatively agnostic about screen configuration (i.e. Hasselblad, whose own branded screens vary wildly in thickness, materials choice, and two piece sandwich vs integrated fresnel).

 

I had a difficult time installing the Ukrainian screen in my S2A, partly because it had an unusually weak fresnel, and partly because it was a tad too small for the Bronica screen well and frame. Rick feels if you install his BrightScreen upside down (smooth side facing mirror, rough fresnel side facing you), it automatically locates the screen image in correct relation to the film plane, with no need for shimming different from the original washers (which may or may not be necessary depending on infinity confirmation testing). Several posters here who've upgraded their medium format camera with the Oleson screen agree his recommendations work well, tho I personally don't love the idea of the fresnel surface being exposed (its more fragile and difficult to clean vs the smooth side normally exposed in OEM screens).

 

Rick's hand drawn schematic of how to install his screens in an S2 body can be found at this link:

 

Dépoli Bronica S2

Edited May 19, 2020 by orsetto

Take a look at the "Strobist" approach for your Bronica: cheap and available radio triggers with speedlights. Rigging a bracket to hold an old Metz makes an awkward package even more cumbersome. YMMV, as always.

I don't understand why old Vivitars, designed in the 1970s, still get such vehement supporters nowadays.

They are not 'powerful', and certainly not convenient to use. The capacitor used gives them an energy of about 50 Joules, compared to the likes of a film-generation Canon or Nikon speedlight with 80 Joules energy. The lack of a 'zoom' or swivel head limits their bounce versatility and the range of modifier that they can be used with. The Vivitars' ancient circuitry also makes them slow to recycle and very battery inefficient. Batteries that live in a holder requiring the flash head to be in a certain position to replace!

 

Basically, they're only one step up from Hanimex, Starblitz or other low-end junk-bin items. So will their inexplicable fan club please stop banging on about how good they are? Because they're below-average at best.

I know Joe dislikes the hammerheads, but I've actually found my Metz 60CT4 a decent match to MF SLRs and the bracket makes mounting convenient on them.

 

The pack for the 60 series is heavy, but I was able to buy a brand new genuine Metz battery from B&H a couple of years ago and it works beautifully.

 

For handheld MF flash work, one of the best set-ups I've had was the speed grip on my SQ-A, which integrated a flash shoe. I usually ran it with a Metz 36CT3, which is a 4-AA hotshoe flash of about the same age as the Vivitar 283 but has a bounce/swivel/zoom head(and can do TTL with the appropriate shoe installed, although obviously not with the SQ-A). I bought one by chance attached to a camera that I wanted, but it ended up being one of my favorite hot shoe flashes. The hot shoe on the speed grip is a really nice touch, and I wish more MF SLRs had it.