First MF camera? Buying off eBay?

I started thinking about trying medium format out, and I'm thinking about buying a minolta autocord. I've just

decided this because it sounds like it is a good quality camera that seems fairly cheap. Does this sound like a

good intro to MF? I've also heard that buying medium format cameras on eBay when you cannot view it is not

recommended. I think I read this when looking at rangefinder cameras specifically, but does this apply to all

MF? What things do you need to look for in TLR cameras? I also wondered if TLR cameras can be hand held

realistically? They look like they may be awkward to hold and shoot without a tripod. I've got a few 35mm

SLR's, but nothing digital, if anyone wondered what experience I have.

 

Thanks for all the help

Be safe. Try KEH.

Yeah I forgot to ask about KEH or adorama. It seems like people have good experiences with these places right?

I've had excellent dealings with KEH, both buying and selling used gear.....

Autocords really are excellent cameras. Try to find one with a Citizen lens - easier to service.

With respect, I'd buy the newest system MF camera I could afford. Nice as they are, Autocords and other fixed lens TLRs are virtual relics. If you have to have a TLR, look into the late model Mamiyas. 645 SLRs are probably the best value now in MF: Mamiya, Bronica and Pentax are relative bargains. KEH might be best as a starting place. Quality on the big auction site is extremely variable.

KEH in general is more true to their ratings. Adorama is great for the new stuff but their idea of "excellent" is my idea of "bargain."

"I also wondered if TLR cameras can be hand held realistically? They look like they may be awkward to hold and shoot without a tripod."

 

TLR cameras (and Hasselblads, too) are wonderful to use once you get the hang of it. A lot of the "brick" shaped medium format cameras allow you to gently squeeze the shutter release between your index finger on the release and your thumb at the back of the camera, resulting in much less shake being applied to the camera than with shutter release on many 35mm cameras.

 

My opinion, though, is that the object of medium format is image quality. So I recommend using a tripod any time you have to shoot slower than 1/125 second.

In the old days, the camera of choice for pros to shoot baby pictures were TLR's. I'm not saying you will use it for that. But, just to give you an ideal of one of the many things that people loved TLR's.

Another thing about leaf shutter cameras like the TLR's, is that with no mirror slap, they can be hand held at slower shutter speeds and are quieter than SLR's.

Michael, I got a Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with waist level finder in Excellent condition at Adorama for $166.00. But, the thing is, even though it wasn't mentioned, it also came with a 220 Pro-s back. And, the only marks on the whole thing are on the memo clip of the back.

This is without a lens.

An Autocord (or similar) is a good choice. Even if you get an interchangable lens camera at some point, it will still be a great, lightweight alternative. I'd get it through KEH. Ebay has a few bargains here and there, but KEH doesn't charge much, if any, premium over ebay if you go with their bargain grade (which is quite good). They also do have a good return policy/attitude so you can always return it if it has a problem. I only had a problem once when they shipped the wrong item and they took care of it quickly and professionally.

John, how much are you looking to spend exactly? You can get a Bronica SQ-A, 80 f2.8 lens, 220 back, and a WLF or

prism for around $200 from KEH. Something similar to this will give you room to grow and expand as you get accustomed

to shooting MF as opposed to something with a fixed lens. Also, I prefer KEH over eBay because, well, you just can't

really go wrong with KEH. You'll always get a good deal, and they have a wonderful return policy.

 

I've purchased two cameras off eBay in the past, and both of them needed overhauls before they'd work properly. I've

never had a problem with anything I bought from KEH. Also, it's never a good idea to buy ANYTHING without a picture on

eBay :)

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i also had an interest in the autocord a couple years ago, and posted here with a short inquiry. pertaining to

the mechanics of the camera(i have the LMX version of the camera), it's one of the most reliable and the original

lens has been nothing short of fantastic.

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i've taken the camera all over the place and it really has never let me down. if your camera has a potential

issue with light-leaking, just tape up the sides and click click click. a lot of my film work these days are done

primarily on the autocord (for examples of mine, you can check out <a

href="http://www.cbaymilin.com/images-people_gal01.html"

target=_blank rel="nofollow"><u>this page</u></a>).

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here's the <a href="http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00Gpge"

target=_blank rel="nofollow"><u>original thread addy</u></a>.

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hand-holding the camera does get a little used to doing with a finesse or style of your own. i usually hold the

weight of the body and adjust the focus lever with my left hand underneath the bottom, and use my right hand to

hold the body steady, and release the shutter.

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using it on a tripod is not at all awkward. you would just need to be able to make sure the threading is proper

for the attachment, and be able to see down into the camera first to compose and focus, if you were potentially

shooting from a height taller than your eyes.

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another issue with some models i've seen has been the peeling of the original leather. whether or not this is an

issue or not, here's a good site for <a href="http://www.cameraleather.com/autocord/"

target=_blank rel="nofollow"><u>replacement leather skins kits</u></a>

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other than that, good luck and have fun with it!

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dude, buy good overall Rolleiflex or even Rolleicord and FORGET the rest. Rolleiflex is the best camera ever made for MF, so silent, so nice to nadle, easy to use, and Planar /Xenotar model produce photos you won't even imagine. I have 3 rolleiflexes, all of em (1 rolleicord, cheaper version of Rolleiflex) are excelent camera. I won't touch havey Mamiyas, won't spend my money for expensive new MF cameras. No need. I love my Rollei, and its results are sharp, top notch quality and this is 6x6, it says all.

"Nice as they are, Autocords and other fixed lens TLRs are virtual relics."

 

Can't agree with this. TLR's are simple and reliable designs. They are easy to service, and many will still be working fine 50 years from now.

I recently purchased a used Rolleiflex 3.5F Planar from keh.com and was amazed at the excellent condition of the camera. The meter is dead-on accurate, the shutter accurate, and it operates as smoothly as a new camera. I bought a Maxwell screen and am having a great time with this quality camera, so much so that I've been using my Contax G2s less, and the DSLR not at all. :-)

I would definitely look to Keh instead of ebay...for obvious reasons.

"I also wondered if TLR cameras can be hand held realistically?"

 

Yes yes yes yes and yes. In fact, hand-holding a TLR is MUCH more natural than hand-holding an SLR. No mirror slap and you are holding the camera against your chest instead of out in front of you with your arms. You can also brace a TLR much easier on a knee or a table. I've hand-held a Mamiya TLR at night shooting 100 speed film and gotten great results... and it's by far one of the heaviest TLR's out there! The combination of waist-level view and leaf shutter makes it a great choice for hand-held photography. You just need to learn and practice good hand-holding techniques.... it's free to learn and it will end up being far more valuable than just buying a tripod which can be a crutch and honestly tripods are only good for certain situations, not eveyone shoots landscapes! a TLR is not really a camera for every situation but it's more versatile that you might think at first.

<i>"[...] and you are holding the camera against your chest instead of out in front of you with your arms

[etc.]"</i><br><br>?<br>You can hold an SLR in exactly the same way (against you chest, etc.).<br>Mirror slap is

often mentioned, but not (!) something you need to worry about. Maybe when the camera is on a tripod, and you

need every last bit of sharpness... then you flip up the mirror before making the shot. No problem.<br>But when

handholding?<br>First, mirror "slap" is <a herf="http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA" target="_blank">a

hugely exagerated way of describing what happens</a>. Second, the movement of your hands is orders of

magnitude bigger than whatever movement the mirror causes.<br><br>A TLR is quiet. And the Rollei TLRs are most

excellent cameras (i do not know about Minolta Autocords and the Mamiyas).<br>But the 'advantages' of TLRs

mentioned here are not real. ;-)

The embedded link in the above post does not seem to work. Sorry!<br>Have a look at <a href="http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA">http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA</a>.

"Can't agree with this. TLR's are simple and reliable designs. They are easy to service, and many will still be working fine 50 years from now."

 

Design isn't the issue. Function compromised by old age is, though.What matters more: making a retro fashion statement or shooting a reliable camera that allows John S to enjoy MF fully? Old Yashicas and Minoltas often need at least a CLA--and often repair--that can enter "diseconomy" territory quickly relative to a newer, lower-mileage model. Besides, the "easy to service" pitch can fall a bit flat since quality, competent service doesn't grow on trees, especially for oldies like this. There's simply too much else available in used MF gear that's more pleasureable to use.

I bought an Autocord off Ebay and had good luck with it. I think I paid under $200. So as long as you don't overbid and you do your Ebay homework on the seller, you have a good shot at getting a fun, quality camera. If you live near a city, you might keep an eye on your local Craigslist. Bargains do crop up now and then. Whatever you buy, the beauty of medium format today is that you don't have to pay much to play.

Rolleis are excellent cameras, yes. I just did a search on KEH.com

They do have a Bargain grade Rollei with a 28 Planar for $1,170.00. a 3.5 for $616.00. I doubt if John wants to spend that kind of money.I would get the Minolta,or a Mamiya. Maybe Rollie was able to come out with the best lenses. But, Mamiya did one thing that the others could never accomplish. Having interchangeable lenses. That makes it far more cost effective. Plus,the Mamiya's have a built in bellows for closeups. The others, their minimum focusing is measured in feet.About being virtual relics. Well,my WW1 cameras are alot older and work fine. Old cameras, being mechanical, have a longer working life that the newer electronics.

Q.G. Even with the mirror locked up, a focal plane shutter is dramatically shakier than a leaf shutter. I can easily hand-hold my Mamiya C220 at 1/15th of a second with the 80mm lens. It's not just quieter, there is less motion period. Also, I sometimes use a cable release even when shooting hand-held to reduce camera shake. And mirror lock-up brings up another point... with a TLR (as with a rangefinder) you get continuous view of the subject which means no guessing about the image. You can see if your subject blinks or their eye-ball moves suddenly... although honestly I've gotten into the habit of ignoring the viewfinder altogether during the moment I fire the shutter to look directly at the subject.

 

And yes with a medium format SLR you can hold the camera against your chest, I guess I was thinking about 35mm SLR's.

Look, if you want to give medium format a try then I don't think you will go wrong with a TLR. They are easy to use as

handheld cameras because they were designed to be used as hand held cameras. The better ones have very light shutter

releases which helps keep things steady once you learn to gently squeeze the shutter button instead of stabbing it. I use

both a pair of Mamiya C220 TLR's and a Hasselblad 503 SLR. I can usually hand hold the Mamiya down to about 1/15th

sec. I can do it with the Hasselblad too, but less often. Interestingly enough, it is not the mirror slap in the 'blad that causes

troubles. There is virtually none there. Rather, the extra bulk and weight of the Mamiya brings more inertia, and with it

more stability, to the party.

 

But be aware that virtually all medium format TLR cameras deliver a square negative. This introduces a completely different

approach to composing your image. It is a challenge that you must be willing to tackle if you've never composed for a

square before. Sure you can crop, but to get the biggest bang for the buck from these negatives, it is best to compose

your image to look good as a square picture. Crop to the ubiquitous 4/5 aspect ratio and you are using the equivalent of a

6 x 4.5 cm. negative. Square can be cool when you learn to use it.

 

I'm not at all thrilled with the idea of buying one of these things from Ebay. Go to KEH (http://www.keh.com) and see what

you can find there. They are a first rate dealer with a very conservative product rating system. They also have top notch

customer service. If you have a problem with a purchase, they will work with you to make it right.

<i>"Even with the mirror locked up, a focal plane shutter is dramatically shakier than a leaf

shutter. "</i><br><br>That may be true.<br>But the 'main' SLRs to consider also use leaf shutters... ;-)

<br><br>Anyway, all this no-moving-mirror=better-handholding talk is myth. Pure and unadulterated myth.<br>Fact

is that (as mentioned) handholding alone is far, far worse than whatever a poorly dampened mirror might or might not

do.<br><br>Using a cable release when handholding is not common practice. And that is because it does not make

sense. ;-)<br>The camera is held by shaky hands (don't get me started on claims that you can get sharp shots at

slow shutter speeds handheld... ;-) ).<br>And one hand has to move to trip the shutter. And with most camera

designs, that is easiest (= needs the least movement = causes less blur) by just pressing the shutter button, the

way the designer designed the thing to be used.<br><br>Mirror lock up, as mentioned, makes sense when a camera

is fixed firmly on a tripod. It is not (!) something we need to discuss as long as we are talking about handholding

cameras.<br><br>A continuous view is indeed an advantage a TLR (or rangefinder) camera has over

SLRs.<br><br>Now do not misunderstand my intentions: i am not trying to say that TLRs are 'bad'. Not at all!<br>I

just do not like those silly falsehoods that are spread all too often to 'show' that they are 'better', when they just are

not.

Sorry about the above link. This one should work: http://www.keh.com/onlinestore/home.aspx