dm2 Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 In a recent thread there was some speculation that film was making acomeback, based on the observation that one Target store had sold allits film cameras. I frequently visit several Chicago area camera stores. Lately I'vebeen asking the clerks how their business was this Christmas season. The responses are usually about same - business was good, or at leastbetter than expected, and sales were almost all digital, compared to03, when digital was maybe about half. I use film as well as digital, and don't expect film to go awayanytime soon. But film cameras are clearly only a tiny niche market now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john15 Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 I don't know if you could call it a "tiny niche market" yet but it does appear to be moving in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric friedemann Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Jeff, I've worked part-time for P J's Camera in Glen Ellyn (25 miles West of Chicago) for years. We're in a fairly affluent area. For us, APS camera sales were never good, but are now all but dead. I think we only have one relatively inexpensive model of APS camera on the shelf any more. 35mm P&S camera sales are now a tiny fraction of total camera sales. We only carry a few 35mm P&S models any more. This market has been almost completely taken over by digital P&S cameras, which are still selling like hotcakes. For 35mm SLR sales, it depends on the store. We have a number of high schools and a college in our area that still teach beginner and intermediate photography with 35mm film cameras. So, we still do a decent business in 35mm film cameras. But, DSLRs are definitely killing the 35mm SLR market, we are limiting the number of 35mm SLRs we carry and we mostly sell Canon and Nikon, with some Minolta and a little Pentax. One other thing of note. At least one article has been posted recently about the continued strength of 120 film sales. Although my store does little in the way of medium format camera sales, we stock a lot of different 120 film. Our sales of 120 film, particularly prefessional emulsions, continues to be strong. It could be argued that 120 film either never left or is making a comeback. I attribute this to: 1. A flood of excellent MF equipment on the market from pros and prosumers who are going all digital. 2. For making big prints, you have to spend a chunk of $$$$$ to equal the quality of a 6x6cm or larger film with a digital camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric friedemann Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 That should have read, "(a) flood of excellent used MF equipment on the market at fairly low prices from pros and prosumers who are going all digital." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Well another thing to add into your thoughts on this is unlike Digital where inorder to use the technology you must first buy a new camera. With film most people already have a camera that uses film. So there is no NEED to replace or buy new to be able to use the technology. Also the used camera markets such as ebay sell a huge number of cameras every day some one is buying those cameras and sticking film in them. I have no need to buy a new camera to use film or enjoy photography I have only one camera newer then about 1986 a Elph Jr. I do have 40+ camera older then that I use all the time. My main 35mm SLR system is Canon FD the last bodies for that system were marketed in the late 1980's And the funny thing is the photos look great so why would I buy a new camera? Yes there is a shift in the market yes film cameras are selling fewer then digital last real numbers I saw showed film cameras to be approx. 40% of the new camera market. Well 40% is still an aweful lot of cameras. Also of note the numbers we see are only for North America , Western Europe and Japan. World wide it could be a different story. Just random thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm2 Posted January 10, 2005 Author Share Posted January 10, 2005 Eric, Your observation re. 120 film sales is interesting. In fact, *I* am one of those amateurs who has been picking up (relatively) cheap medium format gear this year. ;-) Still, I would expect 120 sales to drop, since I and other amateurs won't be putting nearly as many films through the cameras as the pros who sold them. Mark, Yes, there are a lot of cameras being sold on the auction site. But (aside from collectibles) haven't prices for film cameras been falling quite a bit in the last 2 years, especially medium format? That would indicate to me that demand is falling. BTW, I like the FD system too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric friedemann Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 "Still, I would expect 120 sales to drop, since I and other amateurs won't be putting nearly as many films through the cameras as the pros who sold them." I would too. But, month after month, one of the store's owners has been checking 120 film sales. Fuji, Kodak and Ilford 120 sales haven't dipped so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elek Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Prices for classic equipment (not plastic) don't seem to have changed much at all. Prices for the generic looking entry level SLRs from the 1980s-now have fallen. Prices of some all-manual SLRs have come down slightly, but it seems to be rather inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lachaine Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 It's my impression from perusing ebay listings that the prices of film cameras that are good quality and in good condition may actually be going up, not down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbing Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 There are times when numbers can be misleading. For example, digital camera advocates have been reporting that 'sales of digital camera have exceeded sales of film cameras' for years. In fact, every year since 1999, the claim has been made.</p> More current figures from the PMA appear to show digital camera sales are higher than film camera sales.</p> <a href="http://www.steves-digicams.com/diginews.html">PMA Data Watch: Digital Camera Trends - 2004 and Beyond</a><P> -- Scroll down to find the article.</p> However, these figures do not account for the different buying patterns for film and digital cameras. Not many film camera users buy a new camera every 12-18 months but that pattern is not uncommon for digital camera buyers as new models come out. So, many of the purchases that are shown are re-purchases from people who are upgrading their digital cameras. How many Leica M6 users rushed out to get the M7 when it came out? How many digital camera users are still using the camera they bought in 2000?</p> So, even though the figures might show an increase in unit/sales of digital cameras, we don't know how many previously purchased digital cameras are now gathering dust or have been given away or are up for sale while film camera users are still using cameras they bought years ago.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 The place to look to see what is happening is the labs. Xmas sales are irrelevant. Almost every "pro" lab in the area I live in has closed. The wedding labs seem to be closing. If Costco is the market for film processing, that isn't a very positive sign. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 More, many camera stores are dramatically reducing their stock of MF film, cameras and related gear. If stores which continue to carry 120 film find brisk sales, it could simply be because the are getting more sales from a dwindling user base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 my pro photo store sold out of 120 t-max. luckily i have about 8 rolls or i would have to go to an online vendor. they have lots of it in 35mm. so it may be that 35mm has been killed by digi but there is a renaissance in MF. i know i will get a slap down from mr. know it all, but that is ok. i have no evidence...it is merely an opinion. be gentle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loreneidahl Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 While 35mm sales may slow down in the short term I wonder if over the long term people will get tired of forking out hundreds of dollars every other year for a camera when they were used to spending only a fraction of that cost on film and not have their camera lat maybe 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Renaissance, huh? How do you know that being 'sold out' isn't just a factor of your store's ordering *less 120 film*? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 oh, Z, just because you live in London/NY don't you realize that some of us live in "communities" that have businesses that are owned by people we actually know?? they sold out and were doing inventory and have a big order on the way in. what is your problem??? try the H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Yeah, Claudia, that must be it. The pro stores in big cities are dropping items, finding sales slowing, but all the rubes are using 120, and are responsible for a worldwide increase in 120 film sales. That must be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 i bow, nay i grovel, for you are wise. jez us rubes buying that 120 stuff. (*_-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Eastman Kodak's latest quarterly results reported sales of film and other so-called traditional products dropped 20 per cent in the third quarter ? much more steeply than had been anticipated. What's more, it said that volume in the film industry could decline as much as 20 per cent in 2005. Sales of its digital products, meanwhile, jumped 39 per cent during the quarter. Given double-digit yearly decreases in film sales for the last few years, and MF film sales being a tiny percentage of overall film sales (and decreasing faster as high- volume pro film users abandon film for digital), the likelihood that "film was making a comeback" is remote ... at best, delusional at worst. Your anecdotal story about your shop don't gybe with facts about film sales. In fact, I was told by an Adorama rep this summer that sales of all film formats were down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 make that a double bow and a double grovel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsksla_ddygff Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 i think its more than film dying, i think the art of photography is dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elek Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 A friend of the family visiting us during the holidays showed me his new Kodak P&S. I was quite surprised that he still manages to take crappy, low-contrast photos with it. Not much different from his film P&S that was held together with electrical tape. He asked me if he should get the film p&s repaired. Why bother -- throw it in the trash. It was an anonymous black plastic hideous monstrosity -- one of Minolta's finest, no doubt. They're as ubiquitous as worn tires at the local dump. Oh, guess those are gone too. Film is being reduced to a niche market and is being trampled by the digital herd. You'll still be able to buy the pedestrian crap, but for the better color and b/w emulsions, those will be tougher to find -- probably only from the major photo vendors. Good thing we have the Internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 The internet, and mail order in general together with credit cards and 800 numbers, and a one hour lab in every drug store killed of the neighborhood camera shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 i live within biking distance (.5 mile) of a complex that has a b&w lab, a colour lab, & a pro supply/camera shop. but Z thinks i live in rube country and he's probably right....san francisco according to jeff is just closing up all these things. just is not my experience living in a not so big city. i am sure my post will be greeted with lots of schadenfreude by the usual vultures waiting for film to be just a bunch of bones in the desert....but, it ain't over 'til it's over and as someone on NPR pointed out, every single technological advance causes people to think what it supposedly replaces will disappear. we still listen to the radio. and sattelite radio has yet to replace broadcast radio. oh, Z, i am listening.....let me save you the trouble...they are going under soon, real soon. maybe, maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Claudia, if you just took five minutes to go out on the web, you would find out what's really going on. For example, Kodak closed eight of its 21 high volume film processing labs over the last seven months due to no demand.<p> Here's a recent article on the scene in Seattle:<p> <i>Old-school shutterbugs soon will be traveling to Seattle to have their film processed after two of the last remaining professional-grade photo labs on the Eastside close their doors.</i><p> The only two high quality black and white labs in San Francisco closed.<p> If you get your head out of the sand, you'd know about this more. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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