Film advance problems with old rollfilm cameras

Anyone else have this problem with old folders and such, where the

tension in the film increases as the film is advanced until it may

even bind and get stuck toward the end of the roll such that the film

has to be removed from the camera in the dark? This is not a gear

train issue, because it tends to happen with cameras that have a very

simple transport--just a winding knob for the takeup spool and the

feed spool sitting there loose in the camera back. It's happened

occasionally with my Bessa II and it happens to some extent with my

Perkeo II sometimes, though I haven't had to remove film in the dark

from it. I suspect that it is related to the plastic film spools,

since I notice that they rub against the inside of the feed-spool

chamber in the camera as the film gets toward the end of the roll. I

shoot mainly Tri-X in these cameras, so I don't know if there is a

difference between Kodak and other spools.

 

Anyone have a solution for this?

Seems like it would be worthwhile trying one of the old metal spools. Nearly all my old roll film cameras came with them. The only experience I have with the problem is the result of using 120 in a camera built for 620 like the Hawkeye Flash. It is important in any of them to make sure that the paper backing is going straight onto the takeup spool. Might also be worth trying film from different companies to see if you can find one with a thinner backing.

I don't think it's the backing, because it isn't a problem on the takeup end, and at the beginning, it goes fine. It's just toward the end of the roll when the feed spool is moving more freely inside the camera. I think the ends of the feed spool are rubbing against the chamber and eventually getting stuck. I know this from the plastic dust inside the camera when I unload the film.

 

I'll probably try a metal spool to see if I can diagnose the problem further, but this means unspooling a new roll of film and rolling it onto a metal spool, which isn't really a practical solution (i.e., it's easier just to open the camera in the dark to release the tension on the occasions when this happens).

Yours and the 66 - the spools do climb and grind. I've never hung up to the point of having to open the back, but the difference can be night and day compared to an Ikonta. It's the tradeoff for one-hand loading with a lack of centers. The spool must pull more from the center than the edge as it shrinks. I guess part of idea was to make it easier to accommodate 620 as well; hence the stepped winder.

David,

 

I've had the same problem at times with Kodak color films. I tried an old metal spool and it helped. It also helped to wind very, very slowly when it does start to bind. It hasn't happened with the Ilford B&W films I use. Good Luck.

Thanks for the confirmation and suggestions. Maybe I'll switch to Delta 400 just for the Bessa II.

Assuming no recent improvement, buy only one roll of Ilford to be sure you can perceive the number scheme through the window. You'll know it when you miss it - they're not lead-in spots but lightly inked open circles.

I had a similar problem with an Adapt-A-Roll 620. Worse than yours, it tore film. After I realized the holder wasn't safe to use I ran a couple of rolls of scrap film through it; this cleaned out the gunk that had been hanging the film up. My first diagnosis, that it was a spool or an alignment program doesn't hold water; I'm using the same spools and loading the film in the same way.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

Yes, I'm familiar with the Ilford paper backing. I've used it in my Perkeo II, but can't recall whether it had the same binding problem. I've also used Fuji RMS in the Perkeo II, but don't recall about that either. In some ways I prefer Delta 400 in Perceptol to Tri-X, but I generally shoot Tri-X because it is also available in sheet sizes, and even though TX 400 is a different emulsion from TXP 320 and TXT, there is a kind of family resemblance among all the different versions of Tri-X and Delta 400 looks like something completely different, and I like having some degree of tonal consistency across formats.

Hmmm... I shoot many different emulsions because I don't want tonal continuity between films. I like different looks and my head is usually in different spaces when I shoot different formats.

 

As far as your problem, before blaming just the reel, which kinda blows my mind anyway, try looking at the little piece of metal that's suppose to rub against the film backing next to the spool and see if it's bent too far out. It wouldn't make any difference when there wasn't much film on the spool but would increase the pressure as more was wound on. Just a guess, my folders don't exhibit this type of behavior.

 

tim in san jose

As I said, the problem isn't on the takeup side, but the feed side.

 

As far as the film issue goes, that's a personal decision. Some people like to have a consistency of style, and some like different looks. Both approaches are valid, but for myself, I've tried a lot of things by way of equipment, film, and technique, and now I'd like to narrow down the variables.

I missed the feedspool reference. Well then, you got me. If it binds at the end it ought to bind at the beginning.

 

 

tim in san jose

Not really. I think Bob Thompson's description up there is on target. On the Bessa II there is a metal flap on each side of the film chamber to hold the spools down and a spring clip underneath and attached to the flap. On the takeup side there are pins to keep the spool properly centered, but on the feed side the spool just rests loosely in the channel with spring clips at either end. At the beginning of the roll the film feeds at a shallow angle, more or less straight across the film gate, but as the film is used the angle becomes steeper and the spool rides up, rubbing against the back cover of the camera. The material or shape of the spool ends may affect how bad this friction becomes and whether it causes the film to bind.

 

When the camera was made, film spools were metal, so this may never have been a problem at the time. On the other hand, today we have X-ray machines in airports that can damage film and metal detectors that would detect metal spools, and I've carried up to twenty rolls of plastic-spooled 120 film in my pockets through a metal detector without attracting the attention of the inspectors.

OK, I see. I know that my Z-Is don't have this issue, but then again, they have real pins for the axel of the film spools.

 

tim in san jose

I'm not sure what the cause is but it is not related to modern plastic spools, in my opinion.

 

I have an ancient (1930's) Zeiss-Ikon Nixe 551/6 that uses 122 (postcard) rollfilm. I have been able to locate a good number of still usable rolls of this obsolete (discontinued in 1972) film and have shot 6 - 8 rolls of it in this camera. The film (Verichrome Pan) is on metal feed spools and the take-up spools are likewise metal. Almost every roll binds at the end of the film and the paper backing tears if I try to force it. I now wind until it binds then remove the film in the darkroom. Te binding is at the feed end.

 

I have not had this problem using modern (Ilford or Kodak or Agfa) 120 rollfilm in my Bessa II, Super Ikontas or even an early Ikonta even with plastic feed and take-up reels.

 

Ron Gratz

Just thinking... If the problem is with the feed spool riding up toward the end of a roll of film, might not a hand crafted cardboard/rubber spacer or two maintain it in its original position thereby eliminating the problem?

I'll have to check that when I next change film. I'm not sure there is much space for a spacer when the film is at the beginning of the roll, but it's possible.

I've finally found a solution to this problem. I rubbed a little paraffin wax on the spots in the feed spool chamber and the camera back where the spool was rubbing, just like one would use to lubricate a squeaky wooden drawer slide. Works PERFECTLY! The film winds to the end of the roll with no hitch-ups at all.

hmm, interesting tip, I will keep that in mind -- I have a couple of cameras that seem to be way too hard to advance the film.