External monitor for macbook pro

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by benjamin_kim|2, May 21, 2016.

  1. I'm looking for external monitor for macbook pro that I'm using it now. Cause I need bigger screen basically.
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1176775-REG/benq_sw2700pt_27_photographer_monitor_with.html
    This is a great monitor I think. 99% Adobe RGB, 27 inch, and affordable. But I don't like QHD resolution.
    I'm not sure if there are any differences between sRGB and Adobe RGB monitor but I demand more resolution, accurate color, bigger screen, and etc.
    Any recommendations between $400~750 base on my options?
     
  2. For accurate color and good viewing angles many swear by NEC, but an equivalent model (same resolutuion and size) is about 200$ more expensive than your upper limit. I am in the same position of eventually requiring an external monitor for a similar computer, but I remind myself that relatively speaking the computer was about 2 or 3 times the external monitor price range you mention. There are various monitor tests online that you might want to google.
     
  3. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Ditto on the NEC SpectarView recommendation.
    There are differences in an sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998) gamut display; the size of their color gamuts. Colors that exist in Adobe RGB (1998) that fall outside sRGB gamut cannot be seen on that sRGB display. IF you're only working with sRGB, and that's ideal for posting to the web and mobile devices, then a wide gamut display isn't going to be terrible useful to you. sRGB is suboptimal for all out output needs! The NEC can emulate sRGB too, so you get the best of both worlds.
    FWIW, NONE of this so far has anything to do with color accuracy! In case you'd like to know whY:
    Delta-E and color accuracy
    In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).
    Low Rez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be
    High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4
     
  4. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Dell is a popular choice for your budget. Can your os and
    GPU display 10-bit? That's also another consideration
     
  5. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Can your os and GPU display 10-bit? That's also another consideration​
    Not a very important consideration however. And the video path has to be high bit from start to finish; OS, application, video card, panel.
    NEC SpectraView PA series is 14-bit IN the panel so banding being seen on-screen is fairly moot.
    There are far more important attributes the OP should be looking into. For example display uniformity! Something that the NEC's strive at producing thanks to ColorComp. Extra bits anywhere in the path isn't worth a hill of beans if the display uniformity is poor!
     
  6. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    The purity of a display across it's viewing area is vastly more important an attribute to a display system than the bit depth.

    About the worst thing we see with lower bit depth previews is what appears to be banding in smooth gradients. If you're working high bit, there's no banding in your image data! If you see banding at proper viewing conditions (more about that in a moment), it's not in the data and isn't going to be the cause of banding on other output. Proper viewing is looking at 1 image pixel with 1 display pixel or greater. That means 100% zoom or greater in Photoshop (or in Lightroom, 1:1 or greater). Zooming out sub samples the preview and banding, or moiré can be seen even on a fully high bit display path. No big deal.

    Purity of color and tone across the display plays a role in what we see for editing and accuracy too! If you have a neutral gray image (say Lstar 50, 0/0) the preview on-screen should appear neutral gray across and even the entire screen, everywhere. Poor purity will show possibly neutral gray, moving towards magenta and/or green in various areas across the display. You'll make editing decisions based on that faulty preview! Color accuracy would come into play too. If you measure the center of the display, then the corners and other parts of the display, they should all measure the same! With poor purity control, that's just not going to happen. So for someone to suggest that bit depth is important and not purity, best ignore that.

    I recall working in the mid 1990's with a Barco V CRT that in those days cost $5000! It had the ability to move the colorimeter across the screen and alter purity control over (if memory serves me) something like 30 quadrants. When done, the purity was superb.The NEC SpectraView line uses a technology called ColorComp:

    ColorComp™ digital uniformity correction reduces screen uniformity errors and compensates for differences in choreographically and luminance across the entire screen.

    It works very well!

    Bit depth for a display path is kind useful when you're stuck with something like a crummy laptop display that might provide 6 bits per color. But with a high bit panel, it's not at all critical for the entire video path to be high bit, especially when the panel itself, like the NEC SpectraView is high bit internally. And again, you'd only see tiny banding if at all on synthetic gradients, and the higher bit isn't going to buy you that smoothness when zoomed out. Purity will affect the display in all conditions, all zoom ratio's and when trying to gauge colorimetric accuracy.
     
  7. I let the experts duke it out...and I'm not into atomic particles....just wanted clean/accurate and reliable screen. The NEC PA272W-BK has proven to be such....and over the last few years it went up $500 in price....I just noticed. My friend bought Apple 30" (I believe) for about 10X what I paid....and I failed to see the difference.

    Les
     
  8. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Back to reality. Benjamin, have you looked at the ASUS PA279Q? It's RGB and 10-bit.
     
  9. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Back to reality. Benjamin, have you looked at the ASUS PA279Q? It's RGB and 10-bit.​
    Back to the reality of displays on this planet. All are RGB Eric.
    The reality as I've outlined: bit depth of the display path isn't a critical attribute.
    Someone should ask IF Eric owns a Dell (any, as he recommended just Dell, nothing specific) or the ASUS PA279Q; the answer if provided might be interesting.
    "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something". -Plato
     
  10. Also take a look at the Benq SW2700PT - I picked one up earlier in the year. It's a nice display, and it comes in a bit below the PA279Q. Great color calibration out of the box, it's the same resolution as the PA279Q, and it's also 10-bit color.
     
  11. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Andrew, can you answer the question? (Any recommendations between $400~750 base on my options?)
     
  12. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Andrew, can you answer the question? (Any recommendations between $400~750 base on my options?)​
    Of course I can Eric:
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/880645-REG/NEC_p232w_bk_23_Widescreen_Professional_Graphics.html
    $569.00.
    Now what the OP should do is raise his budge a bit as other's have suggested by a mere $99 and get this instead:
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/996585-REG/nec_pa242w_bk_24_pro_wide_gamut.html/prm/alsVwDtl
    Can you answer the question: Does Eric owns a Dell (any, as he recommended just Dell, nothing specific) or the ASUS PA279Q?
    Do you own a display that's not RGB Eric?
     
  13. Well I don't need FHD resolution instead of 4K or QHD.
    Both ASUS and BenQ are nice but still only QHD. Do you think that I will get advantage for 99% Adobe RGB?
     
  14. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Do you think that I will get advantage for 99% Adobe RGB​
    Again, IF you're working with a wider gamut color space that exceeds sRGB, you'll actually see those colors (as long as they don't exceed Adobe RGB (1998) which is possible).
    You can capture and reproduce colors that exceed sRGB! Do you want to be able to possibility see them on-screen when soft proofing?
    This might help explain the issues surrounding color gamut:
    Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut
    A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.
    High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
    Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q
    Well I don't need FHD resolution instead of 4K or QHD.​
    I agree too. Again, despite some questionable text about useful display attributes, 4K isn't anywhere near the top of my list. You speak of color accuracy and this is where a reference grade display system can come into play! Especially if you collaborate with other's using the same display system, calibrated the say way.
    As to SpectraView, here's my copy and paste about some of it's advantages. And yes, I own two and have used many of their models, among other's over the years:
    1. Nearly all if not all current SpectraView displays are wide gamut, Apple's and most other's are not (sRGB like gamut) with the exception of the new iMac P3 displays. But SpectraView can emulate sRGB with a push of a button. The new P3 iMac cannot. Best of both worlds!
    2. SpectraView uses a high bit internal processing path (at least 10-bit) with internal 3D LUTs, many other's do not. These high bit LUTs allow precise adjustments to be made to the display’s Tone Response Curve without reducing the number of displayable colors or introducing color banding artifacts.
    3. Newer NEC SpectraView's use GBr LED which produce far more precise control of White Point, run cooler, use less energy, run far longer than CCFL.
    4. SpectraView has 3-4 year on site warranty.
    5. SpectraView panels are hand selected from the manufacturer line (pick of the litter).
    6. SpectraView has electric technologies like ColorComp, which adjusts and improves screen (brightness) uniformity using individually measured matrices for each display at the factory. All done high bit with compensation for operating time and temperature.
    7. SpectraView has electric technologies like GammaComp, to adjust the monitor's internal 10-bit gamma Look-Up-Table, allowing various custom display gamma or Tone-Response-Curves to be achieved. Apple and many other's don't have anything like this.
    8. SpectraView is a smart display system that integrates custom software for calibration including multiple target calibration's which can be loaded to adjust the display while loading the associated ICC profile, Apple (and few other products aside from Eizo) cannot do this. To quote from the manual: “SpectraView communicates with the display monitors using Display Data Channel - Command Interface (DDC/CI) which is a two-way communications link between the video graphics adapter and display monitor using the normal video signal cable. No extra cables are necessary. All adjustments to the monitor settings are done automatically using this communications link. It is not necessary to manually configure the monitor as all of the necessary settings are made by the software“. Apple and other's has nothing like this, nor can 3rd party software you have to pay for extra do this. This is an attribute built from the ground up in SpectraView to serve as a 'reference display system' ala Barco, PressView, Sony Artisan of the past.
    9. SpectraView will bundle a custom mated Colorimeter with their software for calibration. The price you pay for software and colorimeter with the SpectraView, depending on what country you live in costs significantly less than buying the hardware and software for a non SpectraView. And that extra money will not provide a fraction of the capabilities outlined.
    10. SpectraView PA series offer the ability to calibrate WITHOUT a Colorimeter with the FREE Multiprofiler software since each panel is measured with a very expensive spectroradiometer and that data is embedded in a chip in the panel. It can update the calibration as the unit ages to ensure calibration.
    11. SpectraView can emulate with a single click other behaviors, again on the fly, so it can simulate a non wide gamut display (sRGB) among other standardized behaviors (Broadcast Video DICOM, etc)
    12. SpectraView has internal electronic control over contrast ratio, few others can provide this control over black. Real useful for soft proofing on media that has differing contrast ratio's (matt vs. glossy papers).
    13. SpectraView has Network support (Windows only).
    14. SpectraView has provisions to lock the display controls so no accidental alteration to behavior by mistake.
    15. SpectraView displays allow the user to raise and lower the display for best viewing position AND it can be rotated 90 degrees for Portrait.
    16. Several SpectraView's support Picture in Picture (you can have two differing calibration's per picture).
     
  15. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Do you think that I will get advantage for 99% Adobe RGB?​

    I prefer to work in the larger gamut of RGB instead of sRGB. Most of the printers we use have the capability of printing in RGB if you use their profiles. One can always truncate from RGB to sRGB for web display
     
  16. Well ok. If I pick either ASUS or BenQ, which one would be the best choice?
     
  17. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    I prefer to work in the larger gamut of RGB instead of sRGB​
    That sentence, like your last about RGB, makes no sense! There is no RGB. RGB alone in a sentence speaks only of a color model not a color space. Adobe RGB (1998), sRGB, ProPhoto RGB, ColorMatch RGB are all specific color spaces with differing color gamut. RGB alone is completely ambiguous and has no color gamut, you're not working in that per se.
    Most of the printers we use have the capability of printing in RGB if you use their profiles.​
    No! The ONLY true RGB printers are those that image onto silver paper or similar media. They use RGB light (lasers, CRT's, or a similar light source) to image onto a sliver material found in the analog color darkroom. And they all have a specific output color gamut:
    http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGB_vs_SilverPrinters.jpg
    sRGB is read, the actual color gamut of these three printers show their actual colors:
    [​IMG]
    An Epson or Canon or HP ink jet is not an RGB Printer! RGB is a additive color model. Those inkjet's and virtually every other printer is a CMYK or variant (CcMmYK with perhaps orange, red's green inks) and are subtractive color model (printers)! You send them some RGB data (in a defined color space) and they convert to CcMmYk etc) using their proprietary drivers.
    There is no such thing as an sRGB printer!

    View the video on color gamut and color spaces, you're text is a confusion of missunderstandings of this topic!

    The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to share it! - The Digital Dog
     
  18. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Well ok. If I pick either ASUS or BenQ, which one would be the best choice?​
    Do you want an 'accurate' or made up answer?
     
  19. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Ignore the static, Benjamin. He drags the past into every new thread and derails them for innocent posters like yourself. He's an armchair photographer with four simple default answers: Apple, DNG, NEC, and Lightroom.
    I've never worked with BenQ but instantly equate them as bottom of the barrel. It might not be a fair assement though. The Asus hardware I own has all been top notch and lasted and would choose Asus simply by habbit. I'd ask around though. The Facebook Adobe Lr and Ps group is huge with lots of photographers and you might find some people with experience with both monitors in question
     
  20. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Ignore the static, Benjamin.​
    Benjamin, that's Eric code for ignore Eric's misinformation about color.
    He is quite good at posting factually how to infect all your files with a computer virus (let me know if you need that link).
    I've never worked with BenQ...​
    Meaning, probably best to ignore what he says about it.
    The Facebook Adobe Lr and Ps group is huge with lots of photographers and you might find some people with experience with both monitors in question.​
    Like Eric's text on RGB whatever, keep in mind:
    If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Bertrand Russell
    Much of what Eric wrote here about color and display attributes are foolish. If you want facts based on color science and actual experience, let me (and a few other's) know.
     
  21. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    He's an armchair photographer with four simple default answers: Apple, DNG, NEC, and Lightroom.​
    The narrower the mind, the broader the statement. Like the statements about RGB.

    What do you owe to people who are guilty of being wrong?
     
  22. Unfortunately for the poster, a sword fight rather than rational concessions of points amongst afficionados is probably not really what he is looking for?
     
  23. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Unfortunately for the poster, a sword fight rather than rational concessions of points amongst afficionados is probably not really what he is looking for?​
    Well I think the OP got some factually correct information (from me) and bogus info from another but I'll leave each to decide.
    If you or the OP prefer to hear text from someone who just yesterday, in two posts, illustrates a misunderstanding of basic color (I prefer to work in the larger gamut of RGB instead of sRGB, It's RGB and 10-bit.), Eric is your man. If you're interested in hearing strong opinions about products with zero experience to back up those opinions, Eric is your man. If you're interested in hearing about color management from someone that AFAIK has never written a peer reviewed article (let alone many dozen) on color management or a book on the subject, Eric is your man.
    If you're intrerested in text from someone who's the opposite of Eric's shortcomings outlined above, there is someone here who fits the bill and would be happy to assist you. With facts, experience and an understanding of the topic of color management and further, display technology. There's text above that illustrates that IMHO.
    As I wrote, if you're interested in how to catch a nasty computer virus that infects all your images, Eric is your man. I have zero experience in that despite having worked with computers since 1988 and Photoshop since 1990.

    He who knows little quickly tells it. -Italian Proverb
    I suspect Eric will return quickly with some text about ignoring the facts behind display technology and color management I've provided.
     
  24. NEC P242w-BK on eBay​
    If I want a good 24" monitor between $400 - $750, I would consider this one (link). There are some dead pixels to the right but not significant IMO. A brand new one can be had for $800 and change (link).
    Here's a review (link). NEC has other models, even older models are great. Just look around.
    I have a twin NEC 30" setup and just loving it every day.
     
  25. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Mary, the PA242W is the smaller version of the PA272W I'm using and follows the list of features I provided. 50 hours of runtime is very low. A nice feature of the SpectraView is the ability to log this time of use and it appears this is shown in the photo provided by the seller. Next, ebay is iffy so I'm not suggesting this is a safe sale but this is a good product. Not super happy about the reported line running down the side. Make sure that you get the entire BK items too; colorimeter and SpectaView software with the display! I don't see that listed.
     
  26. eBay is fine - just make sure the seller has good feedback experience. The dead pixels are a negative but it's the reason for the much lower price. Nice to have the SpectaView software but, frankly, I have never used mine. :)
     
  27. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    What are you using to calibrate your display? Multiprofiler?
     
  28. Andrew, maybe I should but I never feel the need to do it. The displays look fine. Think I have calibration phobia. ;)
    Oh, I found company (see link). I send my prints to WHCC - used to do it myself but too much trouble.
     
  29. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Oh, I found company (see link).​
    Very funny (or sad) <g>. The point about pro lab's and color management doesn't explain Costco:
    https://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/

    Here's one for you:
    http://tinyurl.com/kdgutmz
     
  30. Thanks for the info Andrew. So far WHCC has been great. As far as I am concerned, it makes good sense to "delegate" the printing job. A thorn is removed: I don't need to care about replenishing ink cartridges, buying/worrying about various types and sizes of printing medium, frustrating over banding, inaccuracy, correcting/reprinting through the night, torturing through the profound but uninteresting calibration info in the links you cited (sorry - it's just me). WHCC's mail delivery speed exceeds my procrastination, and the price is right. In fact I don't know why I elected to do the printing myself in the past to go through a number of Epson printers, and now still stuck with a big box of printing paper in the basement that is taking space and too good to throw away.
     
  31. Another WHCC happy customer, while my Epson 3800 remains hopelessly clogged. I like my local Costco as well - superb 20x30" Epson 7880 prints for $9.99, 16x20s are $6.99. Satisfaction guaranteed...
     

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