Epson Bessa D, anyone care to speculate?

All right, I'm all giddy about this camera (ok not really)! Some of

you are great at wild speculation about unknown products (this is a

compliment), so what do you think, 6mp, 1.5 crop, cost, out when?

 

Cheers, from drizzley San Diego.

I have read the threads from the previous two days, and even contributed to them. I'm trying now to get a feel for what people think is going to happen next, what the price will be, ect. If you don't want to discuss and/or if the moderators think this is redundent, then you can not participate and/or Josh can delete the thread.

I think they'll be putting in some overtime at Leica till they put a wrap on the Digital M.

Jay, I agree completely. They got their hand forced, hoping they could keep selling commerative models at $4-6K for at least the next 5 years before they had to roll out a digital M.

Jeff my guess is that this Bessa will be a pretty bare bones proof of concept type product. And it think you are about spot on with your 6.1 1.5-1.6X chip this would help with some of the registration distance problems. If in fact the camera does have a mechanical shutter as is implied by the winding lever then it will have limited use, since no real time LCD diplay or EVF. Since only optics with a rangefinder cam or wider then 50mm will be really useful with only zone focusing. Of course with a digital you can shoot until you get it right or the subject changes LOL. Bracket focusing my Canon G3 has it. It will how ever help sell Cosina Voigtlander optic especially the 12mm.

 

Once they see how the idea sells I believe Cosina will move quickly to produce a much more advanced and universally useful body. They will most likely be able to have this to market before Leica stumbles out with their DM (if they call it that I get credit OK I was first) they will most likely go full frame and with many more options while keeping the consept more analog in use.

 

Leica will have no interest or consern for any of the zillions of manaul focus SLR owners who would be interested in a body that would allow their present lenses to be adapted to fit and work on in the digital world. (What a shame it could actually make them some money without the lizard skin and white ink)

 

Cosina on the other hand I'm guessing has already figured this one out IF NOT I have posted this idea to a couple of major discussion groups hoping they might "think of it themselves"

 

Cost with the digital Rebel, Canon Powershot Pro 1 and a drop in some of the SLR prices with new models like the Fuji S3 coming out soon. I would doubt that a bare bones rangefinder manual digital capture model like this one appears to be, would sell for more then a $1000.00 US. Possibly even closer to $700.00. If it is more then a grand they will hurt themselves as that's getting a lot to pay for a simple digital body any more. Especially when the new Canon Pro 1 will be a 28-200mm (effective 8MP with a L rated lens optimized for the format it is being used will sell for around $1000.00 and offer way more features.

 

BUT then I really don't know shit (OK yes I do it's one of the things my truck hauls LOL)

 

Mark W.

I suspect we'll see first a six megapixel 1.4 crop, with accurate framelines. The price will allow places like Cameraquest to settle on a $599 price point.

Unless Epson's directors are looking to sell short on insider trading or their marketing department has tertiary syphillis and gone insane, they're not going to give the US distributorship to some penny-ante part-time camera nut with a homemade website. I certainly see Rich Pinto of Photovillage (the other current C/V dealer) getting a distributorship though since he has a proven track-record and is an authorized dealer for several major brands including Leica.

The RF shooting enthusiasts have been asking for a traditional analog camera (Leica M, Bessa-R, etc) that just substitutes a digital sensor for film, with minimal disturbance to the manual user interface. This Epson seems to be it, and I hope it is.

 

Focus only by RF coupled lenses or by range/scale/guess; no LCD preview. Full-size 24x36mm sensor would be ideal, if accommodating the widest lenses. A smaller sensor means potential for confusion with external finders to relate to the actual reduced field of view.

 

If someone wants macro zoom lenses and finder, AF, LCD as finder, etc etc, then there's already a zillion choices out there that we largely reject. I hope Cosina is catering to us contrarians who really like the traditional interface. :-)

 

I have no quarrel with digital, just with the electronic menu-driven interface. And if this Epson is reasonably successful, then maybe a similarly traditional-interface digital Bessaflex is over the horizon.

Leica is on the case now, and film isn't going to disappear that fast, so what's to sweat?

 

If there is anything I've learned the hard way with digital is don't let impatience be your

master. All you end up doing is paying for the other guys improved model the following

year. If this camera isn't full frame, or close to it, @ at least 8 meg. I'll just wait and keep

shooting film with the M.

 

As far as price is concerned: I speculate if it is under $1000. it'll be junky with crappy

software. And I doubt Adobe will include a low volume Epson specialty digital in their RAW

developer.

 

On the other hand, I'd be willing to go $4,000. for a 10 Meg full frame M body IF they keep

the analog feel and quality of the current M camera. Having Kodak provide the sensor

increases the chance it will be included in a Adobe RAW developer upgrade. Some

proprietary Kodak RAW files aren't even listed as included in the current Adobe list, but

they still work in PS-CS.

"If in fact the camera does have a mechanical shutter as is implied by the winding lever then it will have limited use, since no real time LCD diplay or EVF"

 

Oh well, time to throw my Canon digital SLR away I guess.

What is so great about EVF or LCD Display? Would my M3 be a better camera if it had

an LCD?

 

For this camera to be interesting (to me) the ONLY software it 'needs' is a way to

Delete bad pics to make space for new ones, and a way to set the Resolution.

 

That said, I am betting on a $600-$800 street price. And as many have stated... the 6

Megapixel range is plenty big enough.

 

jmp

I speculate that we can (perhaps) learn more about the Bessa D by looking at

the specs of the Epson digital cameras. They use Sony chips so I guess that

the Bessa D will use a Sony Chip - likely the same one as in the D100

(6.1MB) with a 1.5 mag factor. Why that one? Well Sony has come out with an

8 MB camera and will want the new chips for its own, 6.1MB is sufficient for up

to Super A3 enlargements, the 6.1 chip should be a lot cheaper than the new

8 chip - and that will leave room for Epson to upgrade with a MK 11 model (a

la Canon's incremental upgrades from the D30 to the D60 to the 10D) to keep

early adopters renewing their models every few months. We could get

through two or even three cycles, if Epson follows Canon, before the Leica

MD gets to the market. I speculate that there will be limited colour profiles

available in the software, hopefully a standard Adobe RGB (or RGBs) and

yes, there will likely be a B&W option - there is one on the Epson P&S

cameras. DIN should run to at least 1,600 - maybe even 3,200 and not be

grainier than equivalent speed film. The handling of the camera will be like

handling a Bessa R2 (which I have and use a lot - sometimes in preference to

my Leica Ms) because it is light and cheap and I don't care if it gets banged

about. The Epson digital back will be fast to process pictures, and results will

be very acceptable - assuming they are like the Epson P&S results. Out of the

camera and with standard settings they may be a bit on the soft side and with

muted colours, if the reults are like the Nikon D100's, and that will require

some in camera adjustments (if they can be made) or some tweaking in

photoshop. Price - about one third the price of the Leica MD. How does a

street price of about US$1,500 sound? Thanks for asking for my speculations.

Cheers

Howard (in warm but polluted Hong Kong)

My big concern with this new Bessa is build quality. I'm not altogether thrilled with Cosina Voigtlander bodies. I've written about the niggling problems I've had elsewhere. The mechanical Bessas are kitchen table fixable 90% of the time. (Recent examples: Trimming and gluing the rubber grip back on my absolutely beloved Bessa R2-C after even Cosina couldn't do it right; Screwing down two screws on the mount so the Bessa R2-C could take internal mount Russian lenses--making it, in my view, the BEST Contax mount ever made.) But the the digital Bessa cannot be a kitchen table fixit camera.

 

I'm holding off on this character, tempting as it is. I've held off even on the M7. It's now past time that I got one.

 

But hey, I have a great idea! Nikon and Contax RF mounted digital Bessa. That'll be wild.

 

I love the creativity coming out of Cosina. I just that some of their QC would keep up with that enormous creative genius coming out of the wilds of Nagano.

Maybe Leica will release a 'Death of Leica' special edition platinum MP with a picture of Mr.

Kobayashi etched onto the top.

"They use Sony chips so I guess that the Bessa D will use a Sony Chip - likely the same one

as in the D100 (6.1MB) with a 1.5 mag factor. Why that one? Well Sony has come out with

an 8 MB camera and will want the new chips for its own,"

 

Huh? The sensors aren't the same size. 2 extra Meg count is irrelevant.

 

" 6.1MB is sufficient for up to Super A3 enlargements, the 6.1 chip should be a lot cheaper

than the new 8 chip"

 

Again, not the same sensor.

 

"What is so great about EVF or LCD Display? Would my M3 be a better camera if it had an

LCD? For this camera to be interesting (to me) the ONLY software it 'needs' is a way to

Delete bad pics to make space for new ones, and a way to set the Resolution."

 

I think you mean firmware. And how will you know if the image is one to delete without a

LCD to view it on?

 

"That said, I am betting on a $600-$800 street price. And as many have stated... the 6

Megapixel range is plenty big enough."

 

Big enough for what? If it is a thumbnail sized sensor, 6 meg won't cut it anymore than a 5

meg Canon G5. A 6 meg Canon 10D with a larger sized sensor barely cuts it for a 8X10 IF

you don't crop the image... and Canon has the firmware and software experience second

to none in mass produced digital capture.

 

I think were in for a dumbing down of image expectations (prints, not web uploads) from

Leica gear if we settle for less than 8 meg full frame (or close to it).

Hi Marc,

Why 6.1 MB? So that there can be a MkII model in 6 months with 8MB - like

Canon does.

Cheers

Howard

With respect to price, there is a <a href="http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/v26/msg08903.html">report from Steve Gandy on the LUG</a> that estimates the price of the Leica body at around $6000 and the Epson/Cosina body "may be more expensive than Leica's M7 and MP".

Marc,

I was referring to a LIVE LCD view (before taking the picture). Viewing after the fact

on an LCD is great.

 

As to 6MP being 'enough'. I have seen enough Canon, Nikon files/prints to have an

opinion. I am not even considering spending $6k on a Digital Camera. If it is more

than $1,000, they are making a huge mistake.

 

As for Gandy's guess at the price, I hope he is way off....I own two Bessa's. They are

great for the price I paid and for what I use them for. The thought of paying more

than an MP....for a Digital Bessa?

 

jmp

"If it is more than $1,000, they are making a huge mistake"

 

There seems to be a lot of expectation that this camera will be well under 1000 USD. I was expecting it to be heaps more than that.

Good thing for Mr. Gandy (and perhaps others?) that details will be made available next month. Continuous hyperventilation for much longer than that could be hazardous to one's health.

It seems that most folks are speculating on a imager with a 1.5 crop factor (or something similar) like the D100.

 

The issue with the crop factor is that it makes what are currently wide angle lenses for the 35mm frame size into "normal" or "much less than wide angle" lenses when used with the smaller chip.

 

Leica currently makes lenses with 4 "wide angle" focal lengths (21,24,48,35) and a "zoom" that has 28,35,50 settings. They make 50mm lenses and 3 "telephoto" focal lengths (75,90,135). If the experience I have had with my D100 carries over to the Cosina digital M (i.e. if they use a 1.5 crop factor) then the only "wide" lenses will be the 21 and 24 (acting like a 31.5mm lens and a 36mm lens) the 28mm focal length becomes a "short normal" at 42mm (actually a great all around focal length) and the 35 becomes a "normal" at 52.5. The 50 moves to 75mm, etc.

 

I bring this up because at least for me (and I think several others by what is posted over time about favorite lenses) tend to use "normal" to wide angle lenses on our Leica's more than telephotos. In fact, without the short little 35mm lens I use a great deal of the time I would not use my leica as much.

 

I really had very little problem with adjusting lenses for the D100. I used a 35-70 for a film SLR and simply picked up a similar zoom with a 24mm wide end and went on shooting. I think it would be different for an M camera. I would need a 24mm to equal my 35mm and I would have no good, fast option for a really wide lens (I know the 12mm and 15mm VC lenses are out there).

 

I think to really be useful and offer a valid digital option for using current Leica lenses the camera would have to have a full frame chip. A lot of the other bells and whistles of a digital camera can be left off (an autoexposure mode would be nice). For me an expensive camera that lets me mount M lenses and makes images but does not let the lenses work as they are currently designed for would not be that appealing.

 

Leica (Cosina) could follow Nikon's path and while having a camera that will work with current lenses, also release a couple of "DX" lenses to prop up the "wide" end. Alternatively, I would be very interested in a small optical rangefinder, manual focus, digital camera with it's own lenses that was built from the ground up without having to make allowances for any current equipment but that likely would not sell well.

 

Robert

They are significantly slower than the f/2-2.8 openings of the leica lenses. I am not arguing that an M digital camera of some type would not be fun but as a viable digital replacement for the film M cameras I would want use of the good, fast wide angle lenses I have access to now. I know digital sensors are very light sensitive and the need for f/2 may not be as important for making an image but a wide open lens is used also for creative reasons. My personal use of a leica would make it hard to be happy with a limited selection of faster, wide angle lenses. I am not arguing for a full frame chip because of images quality although I would want good quality images. I am happy with what my D100 can do. It has to do with the application of how my leica set is used and to go for a digital M so I can use my leica lenses then have to get new lenses to deal with the 1.5 factor is a bit hard to get excited about.

I didn't know that Leica made 12mm and 15mm lenses.

 

Do they?

 

Really really wide lenses are either huge or a little slow.

The "crop factor" is certainly a big deal. My normal carry around lenses are a 35

summaron and a 50 collapsible cron.

 

What would a 50 become assuming a 1.5 crop? A 75?

 

jmp

I would have the field of view of a 75, but it would draw the same.