Discussion in 'Canon EOS' started by mark u, Jan 23, 2008.
First details are out:
Yes, memory is cheap these days, but I still would not enjoy having to factor in the purchase of 10GB of memory cards due to the switch to SD/SDHC.
Hands-on is available now as well:
Remind me, why would I buy a 40D?
i. Better body.
ii. 6.5 FPS.
No other new DSLR for PMA, it seems.
I was impressed until I saw the switch to SD memory cards. WTF? Seems like a few nice upgrades but in the end I have these features in the 40D so if I was looking to get this camera body I'd pay the extra few hundred for the 40D most definitely.
12.2 MP won't make much of a diff from 10.1 and that's about all I see for an "advantage" compared to the 40D.
Looking forward to the new 5D MKII though!
[[# Continuous shooting at 3.5fps for up to 53 JPEG (6 RAW)]]
I found this to be rather strange. The 400D has a buffer of 27 JPG but 10 RAW files. The 450D only will buffer 6 RAW files?
Not a bad effort from Canon. I think I will have to get this one. They have ticked my boxes with live view, and a better viewfinder (though it is hard to tell how much better) and the megapixel upgrade will be nice so long as noise is not any worse.
Who would have thought they would have put 4% spot metering in a drebel. Pity about the move to SD cards though.
As the ergonomics of the 350D has never bother me, and I don't need the fps, I am struggling to see what the 40D has go going for it, except perhaps the pentaprism. Assuming this thing retails for $700-$800 the 40D is now looking pretty expensive.
Well should I or shouldn't I? 12 megapixels would certainly kill anything I get off 35mm, but I'm really not liking the switch to SD cards since I have 5 gigs of memory on Compact Flash. And selling those cards would net me basically little money from what was invested in them. I think I might just wait to see what comes of the 5D replacement, which now looks like it will be fall. The 450D at $799 isn't a bad price, but it is higher then what the XTi has been going for here for a long while now. I can get the XTi body only for $619 here.
$619 for a XTi body? Amazon.com has them for $530...
I wonder when they will announce the new full frame(s)...
Looks like 5D MkII will be @ Photokina in August then. Any new lenses coming this month?
The SD card is a surprise, but not really. SD cards are getting cheaper by the day. . . and are frankly more common than CF cards.
But. . . is it my imagination, or is this the second time that a Rebel class camera is sporting a nominally superior sensor to a X0D? If image quality is premium. . .then wouldn't a Rebel class camera be a better choice than a X0D?
And no new 5D? Geez, isn't that camera simply *ancient*? Frankly shocked it was not replaced. I guess in a few months its going to retail for $1500.
Yes it is the second time. For most of the 30D's sad life it was outshone in the megapixel count by the 400D. Canon got their prosumer/entry level models out of whack by releasing the 30D with the same sensor as the 20D - the only time I think Canon has released a new camera with an "old" sensor.
I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with the 5D other than the fact that I still can't afford one. Why is everyone in a hurry for it to be replaced?
Looks like the XSi/450D can only shoot up to 6 RAWs, my XT/350D can shoot up to 9 RAWs with a slow CF card and at ISO 800. Of course if you shoot candid, and family snapshots, it doesn't mean anything to you. I think changing from CF to SD is a wise move on Canon's part, the XSi is aimed at the point & shoot owners wanting to move up to DSLR, and these folks already own SD cards. By looking at the specs, I think it's a very good camera, I just love the price..$899 with the EF 18-55 IS.
For those Aussies out there it has been announced in Sydney on Canon Australia's website for availability in April. It seems to be additional to the 400D rather than a replacement, which means Canon may continue the 400D in Australia, contrary to past practice of only offering one 4xxD series camera in the Australian market.
RRP TBC, but sitting between the 400D and 40D. As usual importing from B&H will much cheaper than what is available locally.
[[Looks like the XSi/450D can only shoot up to 6 RAWs, my XT/350D can shoot up to 9 RAWs with a slow CF card and at ISO 800.]]
How did you get a 350D to hold 5 more RAW images in the buffer than it can actually store?
With a few wide-ish primes, this could be a heck of a street photography camera.
I think I know why Canon again makes a Rebel camera with higher pixel counts than a x0D. It is because beginner camera owners always always judge a camera by its pixel count. Nice move by Canon Marketing Team.
>>"Looks like 5D MkII will be @ Photokina in August then. Any new lenses coming this month?"
They just announced the 200 f/2L and 800 f/5.6L.
If they end up not announcing the 5D Mark 2 before PMA 2008, it will be very upsetting to everyone who have been waiting for it. Although the 5D remains a good camera, a classic/landmark design, allowing it to "fight-on" in today's competitive market is really not a wise idea.
I suppose things wouldn't look too good once Nikon managed to put a D3 style sensor into a D300 style body and sell it "cheaply". Canon's superiority in terms of electronics will allow them to produce a similar product better and more cheaply, so bad they are just not doing it.
"I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with the 5D other than the fact that I still can't afford one. Why is everyone in a hurry for it to be replaced?"
Rob did you see what Pentax annouced today - K20D, 14.6 megapixles, image stabilisation in the body, weather sealed, dedicated RAW button, in camera RAW processing and a host of other programmability the leaves Canon for dead. It will retail for about half the price of the 5D!
The 5D may still edge it out on image quality, but it strikes me that in virtually every other department Pentax and Nikon are putting more thought into giving photographers useful features.
Very nice - I might even buy one to keep in the glovebox as a spare
I did see the K20D announcement. I have not seen any test data from the camera yet. To claim it leaves the 5D for dead is overstating it by quite a bit. No doubt technology and competition has changed the field since the 5D was introduced but the images coming out of the 5D are still stunning.
Rob I think you misread me. I the the K20D's feature set leaves the 5D for dead, though I agree the 5D may still have the edge in terms of image quality.
Looks like a great little camera. Evolutionary, for sure, but strong where it matters. It seems that framerate, physical size, and buffer depth are the last bastions of model differentiation.
[[I the the K20D's feature set leaves the 5D for dead]]
I do not agree. But as I don't own either, my opinion is not really worth much.
Canon 1Ds Mark III or Canon 1D Mark III vs Nikon D3, Canon 40D vs Nikon D300, Canon 5D may be old but still in a league of its own. I don't see any reason why Canon is in a hurry to upgrade it.
I don't own either either so my opnions don't matter either. But weather sealed, RAW button, in-body IS, ISO 6400, live view, programmable ISO priority modes, etc and half the price of the 5D ticks my boxes.
This thing has a Pentamirror viewfinder with 95% coverage and 87% magnification, compared to the 400D whch had 95% coverage but only 80% magnification.
Is there any easy way to understand what this means in practice? ie other than through comparing the two side by side.
when do you think we can buy it...
Thank God no new 5d! Let the moaning from the technowhores commence! "If it ain't broke don't fix it."
http://www.dcresource.com/ says April.
[[But weather sealed, RAW button, in-body IS, ISO 6400, live view, programmable ISO priority modes, etc and half the price of the 5D ticks my boxes]]
Indeed these are welcome features. But I really have to wonder if there is a market segment of more than a handful of people that are choosing between the K20D and the 5D. I guess I just see them as two different camera lines serving two different segments...but I have a habit of being wrong about these sorts of things.
At these lens prices ($5999, $11999) I don't think I'll be buying anything yet:
I agree I don't think the 5D faces much competition, but one could argue that goes for most mid-level cameras such as the Nikon 300D, Canon 40D, or Pentax 20D. People that buy these things are probably already locked into a system by previous lens purchases.
However, it doesn't make me feel happy to think that Canon are resting on their laurels in the 5D segment just because they can.
I think a previous poster mentioned given Canon's superiority in electronics they could offer a lot more than the others, but choose not to.
The thing about the camera market is it takes along time to build market share and a long time to lose it again. Canon has gone from being an innovator over the decades with things like USM, IS, ECF, CMOS, the 300D to a follower, putting in live view, dust busting, ISO priority, still no weather sealing, etc only after the competition had already done it. I think their new-found conservatism is gradually losing them market share.
"At these lens prices ($5999, $11999) I don't think I'll be buying anything yet: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9206-9236"
gotta love the press release: "The development of these two new lenses continues to show how Canon actively responds to the imaging needs of our professional and advanced amateur customers."
So which advanced amatuer customers are buying these babies?
PMA hasn't even started. Maybe just maybe canon will release an even bigger and better digital EOS 3.
I think I just answered my own question. The orginal 300D had a viewfinder with 95% coverage and 88% magnification, so the 450D viewfinder will be about the same as the old 300D. Guess its back to the future on that one.
Can it still use the BG-E3 batt grip?
Not sure, but the picture on DCresource shows a new grip the BG-E5, probably because of the new battery, it's bigger.
>>"PMA hasn't even started. Maybe just maybe canon will release an even bigger and better digital EOS 3."
There's a chance that the XSi 450D is an pre-PMA 2008 "appetizer" just like the Sony A200 announced at CES 2008 (As Sony may announce the A300, A350, and/or A900 at PMA).
So far all of the Canon announcements for the PMA have been predictable ones or insignificant ones. They are either products from series that had been updated on a scheduled basis (450D) and/or consumer products (point-and-shoots) with rather short "lifespans" in the market.
That interview of Canon's CEO clearly stated a replacement for the "mid-range 5D w/ more megapixle counts", while the Robert Westin (VP of Canon Sweden) said that there will be "more photographic/imaging products in 2008 than 2007, and there will be surprises.
leaving the original 5D in the market to age to become 3 years old when or before its replacement finally arrives would be seen a suicidal move from a marketing prospective. Although the personal views of some of Canon's customers, including many original 5D owners/lovers says otherwise.
Let's just wait and see what happens in the next 2 weeks.
So which advanced amatuer customers are buying these babies?
The rich ones.
it is definitely going to put a dent in 40d sales unless they drop the price quite a bit in actual practice...
For those that have not seen the new 18-55 IS actually tests sharper than the 17-85 so that is a big move since the other kit lens was garbage...
The word had been out for a while that No new 5D was coming and not so sound like "i told you so" but i said that 3 months ago citing the cannabilizing of 1dS3 sales if it came so quick and with the 1ds3 nearly impossible to get that concept just about doubled....
if anything i would have expected the "7D" - 5D sensor in 40D clothes with those upgrades for the same price as current 5d as a d300 crusher but it seems we got nothing in terms of full frame...
Now I just have to wait and see if they will drop the price on the 40D any more before I decide which of these little cams will be my spare to my 1dII
I can't understand why they changed memory format.
Yes, SD is plentiful and cheap.
But, what about the people who buy the cheaper DSLR's for a backup camera? Now they either need to buy an older model XT/XTi or a x0D Camera. (Unless your main camera is a 1Ds with both memory formats.)
Maybe in the long run it would make sence.
mars c, I doubt it can use the old grip because it uses an all new battery...
Just think about it this way , As a consulation. Your old CF card might be nearing it's expiration date already, And who knows when it will expire. So buying new cards is'nt totally a loss.
mars c, Actually I have a 20D and most (4 of my 6) of my CF's are brand new.
I can't see going to a Rebel Model unless my 20D broke and I was strapped for cash.
I would than be forced into either buying a XTi or XSi and replace all my memory cards.
But, if I ever went to a 5D or its successor (Probably will be CF as well) and wanted a backup, a XSi would be out of the question...
you can get a 8gb extreme 3 sd for 80 bucks...
that is really the least of my issues. Are you all really saying that you don't own a p/s that uses sd?
The bigger issue to me is why again they have decided to jump the xxd in mp (yes i know there is far more than mp to IQ but still...) and why they can't set the price at closer to 7 for the kit...
at 850 it's too close to a 40D for me...
Yes, I do have a Canon P&S Camera.
And it uses CF Cards...
Mario, what market do you think is bigger?
1) People who have a larger SLR using CF cards and want a DRebel as a backup.
2) People who have a P&S using SD cards and are moving up to an SLR.
#2 is a lot more people, and that's why they switched. They are going to cater to the intended
market, and it makes perfect sense to do so.
Jonny Mac, perhaps #2 is the case, but anyone I know who has a point and shoot camera only has one SD card, maybe 2 and it's of the 512mb or 1GB variety.
That won't get you too far in the XSi especially if you're shooting RAW or JPG fine.
I guess there is a market for both.
But, someone who let's say uses a 20D, 30D or 40D for their main camera, may use a Rebel XT/XTi as a backup.
If you can afford a 1Ds MKII that has both CF and SD, I'm guessing you can afford a 40D as a backup.
Again, these are just my opinions.
Having so many CF cards, I would be hard pressed to buy the XSi unless I couldn't afford to replace my 20D with a 40D.
Obviously I could sell the CF's and my P&S that uses CF and upgrade both to use a camera with SD.
Also, I don't have big hands, so the 20D feels slightly large in my hands. But, I like the features of it over the RebelXT.
[[So which advanced amatuer customers are buying these babies?]]
I think you really have underestimated what people spend on hobbies and past-times. Spend a weekend at a SCCA event and you'll see far more than $12K driving around the tracks.
"The image from the Live View mode is displayed as a smooth, 30fps video feed..."
When I bought a 30D I also bought an S3 IS for my SO (originally, she was going to get a 350D/XT and she would 'share' it with me) - But then she decided she really wanted to have video + stills .
If Canon can put 30fps to the LCD, it should be trivial for them to add video recording.
A DSLR with video recording would allow me to splurge for a second DSLR - 'Oh look Honey, a new toy for you!'
"leaving the original 5D in the market to age to become 3 years old when or before its replacement finally arrives would be seen a suicidal move from a marketing prospective"
Not really. It's the only affordable full frame DLSR on the market. It's much less than half the price (now under $2200) of its nearest competitor ($5000 for the D3).
If people were less fixated on spec and more attentive to performance, the 5D would sell even better!
Read the brief Rebel XSi preview on photo.net, thanks to Bob.
Canon Rebel XSi Preview
I actually think the move from CF to SD was inevitable. Let's face it: SD cards are in fact taking over the market. They are smaller. They are cheaper. . . and they work.
I have a Canon P&S with a SD card. I have a PDA with a SD card. A 2GB can be readily acquired for $25 at Staples. Converting to SD cards is no big deal.
- - - - - - -
Look, I am not a MegaPixel wonder boy. I am still shooting a 6mp 10D. But the bottom line is that this is the second time that the rebel series has notably trumped the xOd cameras in the ONE area the TRUELY counts: Image capture.
Is there anyone out there that really thinks the 30D was superior to the 400D in terms of image capture? All the 40D added to the mix was to make a tweak to the 400D sensor while adding the 14bit A/D converters. Note that the 450D has both the 14bit A/D converter and the digic III processor.
Is there any reason to think that the new 450D will be inferior to the 40D? Sure, going to 12mp from 10mp is a small incremental improvement: But it is still an improvement. And I do not, for one moment, believe that any compromise has been made in noise or dynamic range.
- - - - - - - -
It is frankly amazing in this day and age that the 5D was not freshened up with the 40D features. The 5D was always a 30D with a full frame sensor. How much R&D would it take to pull the 20D/30D non-upgrade trick?
To me, it is a simple in-your-face statement that Nikon still (in Canon's mind) has not brought out a true competitor to the 5D.
>>"It is frankly amazing in this day and age that the 5D was not freshened up with the 40D features. The 5D was always a 30D with a full frame sensor. How much R&D would it take to pull the 20D/30D non-upgrade trick?
To me, it is a simple in-your-face statement that Nikon still (in Canon's mind) has not brought out a true competitor to the 5D."
I totally agree.
To be exactly, the 5D was more of a full frame 20D, which is now 2 generations behind.
The 5D was without a question a landmark design, but Canon should still continue to move forward.
"To me, it is a simple in-your-face statement that Nikon still (in Canon's mind) has not brought out a true competitor to the 5D."
Totally agree. I think Canon's corporate mindset changed a few years back. In the days of the 10D and 300D, they were inovating faster and bringing prices down faster than anyone in the market and were well ahead. They weren't bothering to wait for or look to what comeptitors were doing. They just sized up the market and tried to deliver what it wanted, which delivered them near complete dominance.
I think their success in turn has made them conservative, not wanting to change a winning formula too much. Now they are more responding to their competitors rather than to what they could deliver to customers.
Becoming conservative is not unusual for big corps that have achieved dominance. The trouble may be that they will find themselves one day not so dominant, while also having lost the ability to aggressively innnovate.
Words of wisdom I say (Geoff):
"Becoming conservative is not unusual for big corps that have achieved dominance. The trouble may be that they will find themselves one day not so dominant, while also having lost the ability to aggressively innnovate."
"...And I do not, for one moment, believe that any compromise has been made in noise or dynamic range..."
Jim, I really hope that you are right. I am afraid that Canon this time compromised high ISO IQ to push to 12 megapixels. The 'downgrade' to SD just increases my suspicion.
To be fair, I am waiting for the reviews. That's how I pre-ordered my XT back in 2005: It was a solid upgrade over the 300D, and I did not hesitate to pre-order.
Every time Canon increases the MP count, there are those who say "you don't need those extra MP" "Noise will increase" and other stuff.
Honestly, this happens every time a newer, higher density, sensor is released.
Honestly, I was surprised the 40D didn't use SD cards.
Jim Larson wrote:
"Every time Canon increases the MP count, there are those who say "you don't need those extra MP" "Noise will increase" and other stuff.
Honestly, this happens every time a newer, higher density, sensor is released."I'm with you, Jim.
Now the messages often say "10MP is plenty. There is no advantage in going to 12MP. There will be too much noise at 12 MP; 10MP is the sweet spot."
The funny thing is that the last time around they said "8MP is plenty. There is no advantage in going to 10MP. There will be too much noise at 10MP; 8MP is the sweet spot."
And at the time of the previous update it was "6MP is plenty. There is no advantage in going to 8MP. There will be too much noise at 8MP; 6MP is the sweet spot."
I think that this piece of junk is aimed at the Point-n-shoot soccer moms that think they want to go into a home business taking kids pictures. If it had any thing to do with the pro back-up market it would have the same battery as the 20d, 40d, 5d, etc and wouldn't have changed memory cards. They could have used both. Just my opinon, Bill
Ah, balony. The XTi already had a different battery in ti. And honestly. . .I expect the 50D and 5D-II to use SD cards. Honestly, I have several GB worth of CF cards, and I prefer the new cameras to use SD cards.
And I suspect a "pro" would be more likely to have two XTi's than a 5D and a XTi. Having the backup act differntly than your main camera is asking for trouble.
Never seen a pro with a D-rebel. They are fine for consumers but won't take any rough treatment. As for SD cards they are not real tough but might be ok for the second card in a camera but why not a solid CF card. Just my opinion, Bill
i'm a new member of photo.net and just bought 450d, and already took some pictures.
how do you think
btw, what does "Rebel" and "XSi" mean?
Separate names with a comma.