Engagement couple wanting all digital files

<p>I'd decided not to do weddings any longer because I find more and more couples in the area I live to want a lot for a very little by way of payment. A month ago I was contacted by at least 5 couples for the upcoming year. I explained to each couple that I only do photojournalistic photos (and posed ones of bride and groom only) and gave them a link to my work. I enjoy this type of wedding photography and figured if no one in the area wanted that style that was fine with me because it really is a side job and if I do it, I want to enjoy it. One couple was thrilled and that was exactly what they wanted.<br>

A week later they contacted me to tell me they'd be in the area (they live about 4 hours away from here but are getting married here where their famlies are) and, although they weren't ready to 'commit" to signing a contract for wedding photos, they'd like me to take their engagement photos and would pay me the sitting fee.<br>

Sounded great to me and we actually had a great time with the session which lasted 2 hours for $75 dollars. They were crazy about the photos posted on my site and in that email she THEN said "We forgot to mention but we'd like all the unedited photos on a CD so we can make a book for guests to sign for the wedding."<br>

First of all, they didn't even commit to me doing the wedding so why would i give them the photos? Plus I NEVER give unedited photos. I was very polite and told them that and said I wished they had mentioned that before the session.<br>

Nothing back for 1 1/2 weeks. Today she wrote to tell me that they really want those photos and it's very important to them to get them. I won't budge on that. In essence, they did only pay for a VERY CHEAP photo session - way cheaper than I ususally charge. Then she mentioned that she knew there were more photos I took and she wanted to see them all, not just the best ones.<br>

ugh.. since when do people think they own everything for nothing? I don't care to do their wedding now because I can tell they will be very difficult. The problem is, I'm not quite sure how to word a letter to them without sounding rude. I want to always be very polite, but inside am a bit pissy.. as I'm sure you can tell.<br>

And again, I say, I admire you all - you are saints, and I think it takes a special kind of personality to be a wedding photographer. Me? not so much. I'll stick to selling in galleries, thank you very much.</p>

<p>Well, maybe a nicely worded covering letter(not email) and a proforma invoice for a reasonable amount (in your view) for a cd of edited images only, will either net you some revenue or make them go away. They won't be happy either way, unless you cave and give them what they want, and I'd guess they really don't want to pay for the unedited images on the cd either.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Strangely enough, we've never used anything but email. They even requested an attatchment of the wedding contract to look over instead of letting me send them something in the mail.</p>

<p>I am with you on this one about them not telling you they wanted the original files. I would stand firm. Did you have them sign a contract? </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Rule number 1: Always use a contract, no matter how small the job is.<br>

Rule number 2: Always follow rule number 1.</p>

<p>If they really want them, i.e. they really like them, then can can really pay for them! Nothing for nothing in this world of sharks.</p>

<p>Jude -</p>

<p>How about a compromise?</p>

<p>Send them a letter - Registered Mail - stating that you understand their position on wanting the images and a book for their guests to sign, and that you'd be willing to work with them for a small fee to go over the images and to create the book?</p>

<p>If they just want the images for a guest book they should be open to the idea.</p>

<p>By the way - Always follow the two rules stated above.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Well, I agree on the rules ... NOW. I mean, i've never done a contract for engagement photos but then, I've always included engagement photos with the wedding package and not had to worry because they were covered by the wedding contract. sigh<br>

David, but the thing is - first of all, I don't have their address. As I've stated earlier, they never gave it to me even when I requested it to send them a contract to look over. They just had me attatch the file to an email.<br>

Secondly, my intuition tells me I should get as far away as possible. My intuition is usually dead on and the times I've not followed it (most of the time) I've lived to regret it. I know that people have probably been telling them (wrongly) that they have a right to the photos, etc. I literally felt the hairs on the back of my neck rise when I read "we're going to need to get a hold of the digital copies." They are young, make very good money, and I get the sense that no one says "no" to them. I've done a draft letter where I, again, say how sorry I am and wish they had told me that they wanted the CD before I took the photos because I would have guided them to a photographer who had a different policy than me. I also explained that, like most photographers, I pick and choose the best photos and do NOT give out or even show inferior ones - in fact, I delete them because I don't use photos that are not up to my standards of which I would put my name on.<br>

Well, I guess I might say that I'd do a book for her, per David's suggestion. I'm pertty sure she will not want to pay the fee and will not want to give up the control of doing it for herself. Just a hunch.. will let you know.<br>

Thanks</p>

<p>It is amazing how someone would hire a painter to do one room and then ask to throw in the rest of the house for free. After all he is already on site with with tools and materials. </p>

<p>The bad economy is making people hunt bargains and some are that way anyway, but that is no reason to run a sale.</p>

<p>Honestly, Ronald, I couldn't agree with you more. I just did a draft for the engaged couple about doing a book for them for $250 and they could send me a CD of digital copies if there are any other photos they'd like included. I'm honestly tired of this "the skies the limit" for people who then dont' really want to pay. It degrades what I do as a photographer because it gives me the sense that they think it's easy, and anyone could do it. <br>

The thing is, they both make great money and here I am really struggling to make ends meet. I was just figuring out how much that $75 sitting fee came to per hourly wage. About $2.50 if I'm lucky, after 2 hours of taking the photo and approx. 15 hours of post processing. I always take some photos and do special effects, etc. and that takes time. THOSE are the photos they're in love with and it's hard for me to understand how they don't get that it took work to achieve that? PLUS it took talent (dad gum it! lol).<br>

In the end, I'm very disappointed because I really liked them and thought this time was different (and it's worse than usual). I think the Universe is telling me to just give it up because I don't have the patience to bend over backwards anymore.</p>

<p>Well you don't have to say no to them either, just set fair prices to the work you have done already, one option would be to price the cd of edited images at a minimum of $45 per hour of post processing time. Don't forget to require a signed model release so you could use the photos in the future for advertising.</p>

 

<p>"and I get the sense that no one says "no" to them." Here in lies the problem, IMO.<br>

I don't make my living off wedding photography like many of you folks (just a side hobby/business like Jude) but I'm with those that advise you to set your price, stick to it and most importantly, don't compromise your principles.<br>

In the last couple decades the attitude has become one that "The customer is always right". Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, the customer is not always right. There have been television/radio shows advocating your rights as a customer and asking for, nay demanding, what you want. I watched my chosen profession suffer with this mentality to the point where I and many much more talented than I have abandoned their love and move on to something else.<br>

I agree with Bob, you don't have to say "No" and you don't have to be rude but the air must be clear to all. You gave them a break with the engagement photos because they struck you in a positive way and now it seems they are taking advantage of your good nature. I'd let them know that your "fees" are this much and if they wish to continue the relationship they will understand, if not they will move on and you will be free in time and emotion to accept the next one that comes your way.</p>

<p>First, too late now, but I would have gone over the engagement session 'deal' with them before proceeding--costs, how it works, etc. IMHO, this is partly your responsibility.</p>

<p>Second, their attitude isn't all coming from any greediness or expectation of getting everything they want. The model (sitting fee and purchase of individual images as prints) you are using is becoming less and less used these days. If they are young, they may not have even heard of such a model and would not even think it would exist. So your outrage is a bit misplaced, IMHO.</p>

<p>Third, up to you how you want to handle it. If you don't want to deal with them, just make some polite excuse for the wedding date. As for the engagement images, (I think) you owe them at least a nicely worded clarification of your policies. If it were me, I would make some concession for the confusion over the deal and tell them exactly what it is. Then let them decide.</p>

<p>My point, if you didn't get it in the above, is--take the emotion out of this. Be business like and fair, and don't assume their sole intention is to take advantage of you.</p>

<p>I get what you're saying, Nadine, but my point is that there was no confusion other than they failed to ask if I would give them digital files. I DID explain how it worked and they knew I was charging a straight sitting fee and, aside from a free 8x10, they would be purchasing the sizes they wanted for the prices I listed. When I told them this, that was the time for them to request the files. I didn't broach the subject because I've never had a couple ask for a CD of engagement photos before. I have kept my "wedding" business very simple with straight fees - a few amounts of free prints and free engagement photos, and purchases of photos for a reason. I work full time at a newspaper where I have to some days work from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. If I were to do wedding photography full time I would - of course - have different packages, etc. And, by the way, the world of wedding photography is WAY different in a rural area like mine than in a big or even medium size city.<br>

I think they are nice people and I did have a great time with them - even spending way more time for the $75 fee than I would have otherwise. The photos came out great and I was excited, as were they. All this aside, Nadine, I don't believe I owe them anything other than what I promised. I was seriously thinking of charging them a certain amount to do a book for them, but I, in essence, do not even want the bother of it. I may give them a CD of worked up photos but they've already inferred that they didn't want to pay much for one. Maybe that's what I'll do and name my price and they can choose to purchase it or not.<br>

Also, I get to be a bit outraged about how people treat me. I know how hard I worked on the photos and I know I gave them a very inexpensive fee for doing it. I expect people to treat me the way I treat them - which is with fairness and respect. I doubt they - or anyone else on this site - would work for $2.50 an hour and then try to compromise for a mistake they made in not asking about files beforehand. This is not just about what they are requesting, it is about their lack of communication in the first place, their ignoring my emails for long periods of time, and an overall sense that people believe they own what they do not. It's frustrating, and EVEN if that comes across in this forum, it is not in any of my correspondence with the couple.<br>

And "outraged" is a bit strong, by the way. I was venting here on a site where other photographers might understand my frustrations AND give me advice on how to word something properly.</p>

 

<p>Jude--I was thinking it wasn't made clear what the engagment session deal was. If you did make it very clear, then I back down on thinking they are as innocent as I originally thought, although if they are very young, some of that is still there. Most young people don't have the experience of having to deal with business practices older people take for granted, including polite forms of business communication. They also would have no way of knowing how much time and effort you put into your work, if you didn't actually tell them this--non-urban locale or not.</p>

<p>The concession I suggested was not to give them anything for free. It was just a small gesture on your part to acknowledge any confusion--such as a small discount on something. It was basically a customer service device to show 'niceness' on your part. Because there should not have BEEN any confusion, I wouldn't suggest it now--just the nicely worded clarification and take it or leave it offer.</p>

<p>As for the 'outrage'--the word goes with the venting. It wasn't meant to be nasty. I do sense a lot of emotion, which usually doesn't help matters when it comes to dealing with clients. I find it a bit illogical to be so piqued by this incident that you don't want to do their wedding, but that is entirely up to you. It's nice that you don't have to rely on wedding jobs... If you were venting, that's fine. By the way, I'd maybe not use your name, since google will call up this post if anyone (including the couple) wishes to search.</p>

<p>Are you really asking for actual sample replies?</p>

<p>"Dear Engaged Couple:<br /><br />I want to say again, that I had a wonderful time photographing your engagement session on X. I am very happy with the images and am glad you find them as exciting as I do. However, I must clarify my policies on these sessions.<br /><br />As you recall, the $75 fee covers the actual sitting, and after I edit and process the images, you may order any prints of the resulting images, based on the price list given to you at our meeting. One free 8x10 is included in the cost of the sitting. I do not sell image files and they are not included in the $75 fee. I also reserve the right to edit the session images and present only the best ones. Only duplicates and unsuccessful images (due to blinks, for example) are edited out. All 'good' images are shown. The images are also processed with great care and expert handling.<br /><br />I apologize if there was any confusion over my policies, but I am afraid I cannot comply with your request for the image files. You are, as always, free to order prints of any of the images.<br>

<br />I look forward to hearing from you.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Photographer"<br /><br />My take, but I'm sure you'd want to personalize it. I don't recommend getting into any justification for not selling the files. It usually doesn't lead anywhere positive. I hope you have protection on your online proofing site, because I'd guess they may attempt to download the images anyway.</p>

<p>Thanks, Nadine.. I think that's a great letter. I am an emotional person (lol) and I think it came through in my venting here. The thing is, I DID want to do the wedding. They wanted just photojournalistic and I was happy about that. They were nice and it just seemed to bode well. Now I realize it's always going to be something that drives me crazy and maybe it's just that (and I've admitted it before) I don't have the temperment for it. I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I do fine art photographs and that suits me well because I do what I love and if someone wants to purchase them, they do. If they like a different style, they walk on by and that really does suit me fine. I tried to bring that into my wedding photography but there always seems to be some imperfection in the "theory"..<br>

I post very low resolution photos online for couples to look at and did NOT put a watermark on them. When i emailed them to say that they were up for viewing I did say something to the effect that they were not watermarked and I wanted to remind them that they may not be downloaded or reproduced per copyright law. BUT I do believe they downloaded them because 3 days after they were posted they were no longer looking at them on my site which never happens. As you probably know, people keep looking and show relatives, etc. (I can see the views). After she had asked me about getting all the unedited photos on a CD and I nicely told her it wasn't my policy to give them away, she never wrote back for a long time. I believe they had downloaded them and tried to use them and realized they were very small, which is when they contacted and said they "need to get ahold of all the digital files" in their email yesterday.<br>

I agree with the "not justifying" my reasons why. I tend to go into too much detail (hard to believe, huh? lol) and have to read and re-read what i'm drafting to them. Your letter will help.<br>

I didn't mean to come off so pissed, but I .. um... was. I felt like I was being used a bit (them not ready to commit to a wedding contract yet, but wanting everything I shot).. oh well.. I keep sayiing "lesson learned" but it's getting tiring to keep learning..lol</p>

 

<p>Jezz who cares if they want the files! The only thing you have showed them is that they need to find better photographer than you to shoot there wedding. Stop being so greedy ! I'm sure the few dollars you could have made on prints was well worth looking like a money hungry hack.</p>

<p>You are WAY out of line Tyler. Bad boy, go to your room.</p>

<p>Excuse me, but I'm not the one being greedy. Since when is a photographer's work not worth the money it's worth? LOL.. money-hungry hack? well, I guess that whole $75 I CHARGED them for engagement photos is an outrageous fee. Sounds like Tyler doesn't know what professionalism is.<br>

Tyler, I have this "thing" about my work. I don't want it sullied with.. changed, altered, cropped, etc. if my name is on it. I want it to be what I created. Call me silly, but that's how I view what I do.<br>

Nadine, I used parts of your letter and sent it off. I appreciate your help.</p>

<p>"Today she wrote to tell me that they really want those photos and it's very important to them to get them. <strong>I won't budge on that</strong> "<br>

Why wont you budge on that ? The client didnt say they wanted to re-edit,alter,crop your pictures. She just wanted to use them for her wedding book. Wow that is such a unreasonable request. What was she thinking ?<br>

I'm sorry my comment offended you, but the fact you REFUSE to even consider helping her out just because you <strong>" NEVER give unedited photos " </strong> is silly and just makes you look greedy. I hate to break it to you but your pictures are not special. You are one of millions photographer she could have hired to do this. She choose you for a reason. She must have liked something, now with you not willing to budge at all on this just ruins the way she thinks about you. So you give her a disc, whats the worst thing that could happen ? She creates a book of pictures her guests see at the wedding and LOVE. And in turn ask her who took those great pictures and you get more clients ? Wow that is risky.... I wish she knew before hand how unreasonable you are before doing the shoot. That way she could have found another photographer she liked who would be happy to throw in a disc of all the pictures.</p>

<p>I am in a way agree with Tyler and with you too.<br>

About the cheap session, I think that's your fault, you can't blame the client for this.<br>

On the other hand, I think the client is not truly honest with you (not ready to commit? what is that?). So I asume they will use another photographer, right? That would make me think, did they already have one? have they been looking for some photographers and you were the one who gave them this session for "free"? <br>

I don't like clients doing "shopping" with us. I am ok with competing but I am not ok with someone that is taking advantage while I am making an effort, do you know what I mean?<br>

Sth. I learned from a boss some time ago. The client owes you to be clear. You must ask straighforward what is going on, and also always be straighftorward.<br>

I think it's your right not to give unedited photographs. If they want all of them, you should kindly explain you don't do that (unedited), and send a commercial proposal (value) for the work you must do in order to deliver the rest of the images.<br>

Hope you can work it out.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I find it very strange that they would not give you their address. I think they intended to get something for nothing all along<br>

Hope it works out ok for you</p>

<p>I ran into a similar situation doing a family's portrait. The person wanted all of the photos, unedited, on a disc. One, I don't do discs. Two, I never give unedited photos or edited photos that aren't up to par. She was quite insistent upon her demands, but I am not gonna stand down. So, we compromised. I ended up giving her a disc, but only with the finished photos. It probably didn't help my case that she was friends with my mom though. And it doesn't help that I'm 17, that makes it tough because adults tend to get their way in this world. So, Jude, I don't know what you should do. But, if I was you I'd just stick to your guns and if this particular client doesn't like it, they don't have to do business with you. The client has a choice just as you do, but I think some clients forget the photographer has a choice. Just do your best to be as polite as possible as to protect any future endeavors. I've already made a few client-relations mistakes, haha. And they could very well come around and haunt me, I don't know. Just try your best to avoid such a predicament. And good luck. </p>