Emulsion defect?

I just processed a roll of FP4 in 120 format, and I can see faint lines with the naked eye on several of the negs (not all), and scanned they are very obvious (see section of neg). On closer inspection there are hundreds of metallic looking blue/mauve spots on the emulsion side, and lots, but not as many on the reverse. I can't feel the spots, so pretty sure it is not dust, and oddly, the spots don't seem to show up in the scans? Processing was Thornton 2 bath, 4 mins each bath, fix. Patterson tank, 10 secs/ min agitation, inversion wash and final rinse in distilled water with wetting agent as per my normal routine. Fresh chemicals, 2 bath used once before, no problems then. Film kept at room temperature, expires Jul 2019. One problem would be odd, but both lines and spots! Maybe I just got lucky. Anyone seen this before, or have any other explanations? Not a scanner issue as I can see the lines on the negs with the naked eye.

 

Could this be an emulsion defect?

 

 

Just a guess: I wonder if the film has been damp before you used it, and the emulsion has adhered to the backing paper of the next layer in the roll. Then, when the roll was advanced, a little of the surface of the paper might have been detached, stuck to the emulsion.

The spots look like sediment from a photoflo wetting agent mix that's been used more than once. Mixed agent deteriorates left lying around and will produce sediment

 

Those spots might also be from aging unfiltered fixer, but I've had far more trouble with photoflo

The spots look like sediment from a photoflo wetting agent mix that's been used more than once. Mixed agent deteriorates left lying around and will produce sediment

 

Those spots might also be from aging unfiltered fixer, but I've had far more trouble with photoflo

 

The lines I've seen before from cheap multifunction scanner light reflectors, but only when scanned at it's software's highest resolution

 

How it does this I'm not sure but I once compared the odd looking line pattern on scans from a HP c8180 to the pattern on it's light reflector, and the pattern matched

Thanks for reply. My first thought was some contaminant of some sort, but you cannot feel these spots, they seem buried in the emulsion, and like I say, the lines are visible with the naked eye on the neg, so can’t be scanner related. Fixer fresh ( one film previous) I do use a wetting agent, it’s maybe a year old, but I developed a film maybe a week ago with no problems like this?

Any chance this will wash off.?

Any chance this will wash off.?

No, I've tried that. You can't feel anything 'on' the film, whatever it is looks like it's 'in' the film. Better picture attached.

 

I've seen similar spots once before, at a professional darkroom where I worked. After much team head-scratching, it turned out to be contamination of the plates and hence developer by aluminium dust - from the nozzle of a supposedly hepafiltered air blower.

 

 

Had any aluminium containers or instruments near the film or processing chemicals?

I've seen similar spots once before, at a professional darkroom where I worked. After much team head-scratching, it turned out to be contamination of the plates and hence developer by aluminium dust - from the nozzle of a supposedly hepafiltered air blower.

 

 

Had any aluminium containers or instruments near the film or processing chemicals?

Nope. All plastic.

 

The spots do look like flakes of something, but they are definitely not on the surface, and they don’t scan? The fact that I’ve also got the lines problem leads me to believe it is a emulsion defect. I’ve emailed ilford, but I’m not holding my breath.

It seems unlikely that Ilford have made a bad batch of film, and only you have bought any of it.

 

What camera is this from? I know several of mine are little dust factories, with bellows and shutter cloth breaking up.

It seems unlikely that Ilford have made a bad batch of film, and only you have bought any of it.

 

What camera is this from? I know several of mine are little dust factories, with bellows and shutter cloth breaking up.

It's a Rollei Vb, but I've rewashed the film, and you can't feel anything on it like you could if it were dust.

The aluminium marks I mentioned above were a chemical stain that seeped into the emulsion. There were no visible metal particles left on the surface of the plates - we'd have known what the contamination was a lot sooner otherwise. As it was, it took the services of a mass-spectrometer to find the cause.

The aluminium marks I mentioned above were a chemical stain that seeped into the emulsion. There were no visible metal particles left on the surface of the plates - we'd have known what the contamination was a lot sooner otherwise. As it was, it took the services of a mass-spectrometer to find the cause.

 

I'll get my Mass Spec machine out of the attic then;)

Hard to say at a distance but it looks like a developing problem to me or possibly film that was damaged by heat or water, not a bad emulsion. Try processing an unexposed roll along with another that has been exposed in the same camera. A bit expensive but could help you track down this problem.

 

Rick H.

Hard to say at a distance but it looks like a developing problem to me or possibly film that was damaged by heat or water, not a bad emulsion. Try processing an unexposed roll along with another that has been exposed in the same camera. A bit expensive but could help you track down this problem.

 

Rick H.

Good idea

Ilford responded saying they were sure it wasn't an emulsion defect, and I then sent them more detailed scans. I got no further response. However, I have mixed up new developer (Adams 2 bath) as per my normal routine. Same problem, which leads me to believe this might be due to 'old' chemicals, as I have never had this problem before. Bath A contains Metol (9g) and 90g of Sodium sulphite, bath B just Sodium Metaborate 12g. I have always believed that dry shelf life of these materials should not be a problem, maybe I've had the metaborate for 10 years, the others for a few less, but I'm beginning to wonder.

 

Anyone have any idea which of these if any, might be more susceptible to 'going off'. They are all sealed in their original plastic containers.

 

I also wondered about incomplete fixing, just tested the fixer with a scrap of film leader, cleared in about 1min, and my standard fix is 5 mins, so it should be fixed OK.

 

It's not going to bankrupt me getting newdry chemicals, and I could mix up batches, just changing one thing at a time, to weed out the cuulprit, but it would be helpful to know if I should look at one of these as being more likeley than another.

 

Thanks

One way to find out for sure, use commercially prepared chemistry.

 

Outdated or Frozen film?

What fixer are you using?

the water you're preparing your chemistry with?

One way to find out for sure, use commercially prepared chemistry.

 

Outdated or Frozen film?

What fixer are you using?

the water you're preparing your chemistry with?

 

Film is not outdated nor has been frozen

Amfix (Thiosulphate) by Champion (budget option) - used for the last few years with no problems

Tap water for both baths ( as per last 20 years). Our water is consistently excellent.

 

If I had to guess at what this was, it would be that ‘clumps’ of grain is being developed to the same density, as if something is making patches of individual grains merge together and behave as-one. As I said before, it doesn’t not scan, and it does not seem to print either, but is very visible on the negs, lading me to believe it is within rather than on the emulsion. Baffled!

 

I have changed nothing from what I normally do, which is why in the first place I suspected an emulsion defect. The only thing that is different is that the chemicals are a bit older.

 

I have ordered some rodinal ( or at least the Tetenal equivalent) in any case, as I fancy a change in any case, so this will at least tell me if is due to the developer.

Hard to say at a distance but it looks like a developing problem to me

 

There are many possibilities, already mentioned, but I'd bet money that it is a problem in the processing rather than in the film itself.

I

There are many possibilities, already mentioned, but I'd bet money that it is a problem in the processing rather than in the film itself.

 

I tend to agree. Ilford I'm sure would have meticulous quality control

 

I can see some spots in the first image that are in the gap between the two negatives. Is there any emulsion left in the gaps after developing ?

Hard to see but look like same sort of spots to me

 

Yes, the spots are not restricted to the exposed part of the negative. I’m sure it is a processing fault, but as all I have done is my normal routine (twice now, effectively ruling out some error such as putting bath B in first etc), all I can think of is exhausted chemical stock. Developer is mixed from powder stock bought on line. As I said in an earlier post, I’m not aware that any of this should degrade sufficiently over the timescales I have had it for, but I can’t fathom any other reason?

Thanks for continued input.

The film rebates are as clear as they should be, but there are spots in them.

Does your made up developer have any undissolved 'bits' in it, or is it cloudy or does it throw a sediment?

 

If no to all the above, and the liquids are absolutely clear, then I doubt the chemicals are to blame. Stale Metol turns brown and loses developing power, but it generally has a good shelf life.

 

However, a culprit could be the chemical containers. Are any chemicals kept in metal tins? A rusty tin could easily contaminate your solutions and give exactly the kind of spots you're getting.

Does your made up developer have any undissolved 'bits' in it, or is it cloudy or does it throw a sediment?

 

If no to all the above, and the liquids are absolutely clear, then I doubt the chemicals are to blame. Stale Metol turns brown and loses developing power, but it generally has a good shelf life.

 

However, a culprit could be the chemical containers. Are any chemicals kept in metal tins? A rusty tin could easily contaminate your solutions and give exactly the kind of spots you're getting.

 

The solutions are clear at the moment as they are freshly made ( to help assess this issue). They tend to get a bit cloudy with time, after use, but normally do not produce any precipitate. The containers are 1l Amber glass bottles, so no issues with metal fragments.

 

 

 

 

 

to not produce any precipitate or

OK, so I just developed some negs in parasol S (Rodinal) and on close inspection, these have the spots too. It must therefore be the fixer. I'm wondering if I got the mixing wrong, or it has somehow got contaminated. Would I get such marks with over concentrated fixer?