Email Campaign To Save Kodak HIE-135 Infrared

Dear Fellow Photographers,

 

As you may be aware, Kodak has announced plans to discontinue

manufacture dsitribution of HIE-135 infrared film by the end

of December 2007.

 

Below I have copied an email I just sent to Patrick

Hamilton, Public Relations Director, Kodak CDG EAMER:

patrick.hamilton@kodak.com

 

Mr. Hamilton has encouraged me to write Kodak and is

aware that I am attempting to start an email campaign

to save HIE-135. He has assured me that he will get

the messages to the appropriate people.

 

I ask each and every one of you to please take a

moment and write an email to Kodak. Copy my letter if

you like. Even if you don't ever plan to use film

again, consider those of us who do and make this tiny

effort.

 

I plan to post a very similar message to APUG, Infared Forum,

and to flickr's IR group. If any of you know of other

forums I should post to please send me that information.

Please contact me offlist if you like:

nighthawkjw@gmail.com

 

Thank you all for your assistance. I know we can make

this happen if we try!

 

Sincerely,

James C. Williams

 

________________________________________________

 

 

Dear Kodak,

 

This message is to be distributed to those responsible

for the choice to delete or discontinue Kodak's HIE-135 infrared

film. The purpose ofthis message is to persuade those people to reverse

that choice.

 

Among the many applications of photography there is a

unique type of film that produces very unusual photographs, infrared

film. It's initial and major commercial purpose has been for

scientific and security purposes. However, aside from these mundane

applications, a much more visually appealing application is fine art

photography using infrared film.

 

Many fine art photographers recognise the great benefits of using film

and prefer film to digital. In the case of infrared photography, there

are many people trying different approaches to using digital cameras,

but that system has problems to be solved and the results are not nearly as

good as those produced by HIE-135.

 

Among other infrared films, HIE-135 is also unique and superior. The

extended range of 900nm produces a greater sensitivity to the infrared

spectrum, and the absence of an anti-halide backing makes it ideal for

producing images evoking surreal and ethereal properties that no other

film produces. No other film manufacturer producing infrared film

today makes a film like HIE-135.

 

Discontinuing the manufacture and distribution of HIE-135 infrared

film will mean that photographers like myself will have to compromise

future bodies of work. It will mean that perhaps the best infrared

photographer, Simon Marsden, who has dedicated 30 years to producing

thousands of images on HIE-135, will have to either adapt or

end his career now.

 

The responsibility of a creative medium for many people lies in this

decision. It not only represents the choice to stop making a specific

type of film, but is indicative of the future of all film. Kodak was

responsible for the popularity of photography, and needs to be

responsible for safeguarding the future of it as well.

 

--

Sincerely,

James C. Williams

 

Photographer specializing in infrared photography.

 

Online Galleries:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nighthawkjw/sets/

 

http://www.photo.net/photos/James%20C.%20Williams<div></div>

Isn't that anti-halation backing?

I put in my $.02.

Sent mine in

 

Thanks for doing this.

I sent mine in. Though, honestly, Kodak is not going to revive this. The only possibility is licensing the formula and trade secrets to a 3rd party who can also spend the engineering $$ to make this film in smaller runs.

$0.02 and e-mails may not do it. Lots and lots and lots of income from selling the film might sway them.

 

Keith

I put my response in and here it is, I believe if we all work together, we can make this happen. It is banding together as a group of advid film photographers that will make the difference. As said above, even if you don't use HIE, please post en email anyway, who knows what film might go next. Who would love to see Kodachrome back on shelves? Well this is just another example of a loss of a great film and if we don't show Kodak that there are many of us out there that appreciate and love these products, then why should they continue to make them. If you want to copy my response feel free, just put your name at the bottom of the letter I am posting here that I wrote to Kodak about the ramifications of discontinuing such a great film.

 

My Letter to Kodak:

 

Dear Mr. Hamilton,

 

I am writing in regards to the new decision to discontinue Kodak HIE from its line of films. I am writing to make you aware there are THOUSANDS of film photographers that are extremely disappointed and devastated that this decision has been made. We Fine Art Photographers use this film and cherish this film for our work that produces images for websites and Art Galleries across the world, I am currently working on an Infrared project for a gallery in my state and now my inability to get any Kodak HIE film has made my project all but useless, if not just plain difficult because no other film matches the beauty of Kodak HIE. I am an avid user of Kodak Products, including developers, fixers, stop baths, and more. I don't mind that sometimes I can find a cheaper alternative to a specific product, I believe in Kodak and trust Kodak! I have been a loyal user of these products for over 20+ years and I am extremely disappointed that Kodak is discontinuing HIE film. As said by some of my other photographic brethren, it might have had some mundane uses as security and other commercial applications, and there might be better ways to do those things now, but we are Fine Art Photographers continuing the tradition of showing the public beautiful, amazing, and moving images that further culture and art in this world and Kodak HIE has been a very important part of that progression. The people that made this decision have hurt our community and are going to make the people that enjoy our Fine Art photos in Art Galleries and on Websites alike suffer and be at a loss of so much Fine Art Photography and I think that is a travesty. Please forward this email to the people who have made this decision and hopefully they will understand how much we cherish this film and want it back in production. Within 4 days of the announcement being made, I couldn't find a roll of Kodak HIE anywhere in the country, all photographers went and emptied their bank accounts if they had to, to buy up the remainder of what was left on every shelf of every distributor and I believe that is good proof to the loss that Kodak is going to see in its profits from not having this film available to our community anymore. This decision in my opinion was a bade business decision and I hope the mounting pressure and overwhelming response from our community petition will help Kodak representatives to change their minds and put Kodak HIE back on the shelves so we can continue our tradition of making Fine Art with your wonderful product. We already have had to suffer the loss of one of the finest films ever made, Kodachrome, please don't make us suffer even a greater loss of such a unique and beautiful film as Kodak HIE.

 

Thank you for your time in reading this and forwarding it to the proper representatives in hopes that we will see a bulletin released soon that says, Kodak resends its prior decision of discontinuing Kodak HIE due to an overwhelming response from Fine Art photographers and many other photographers alike. I believe Kodak will appreciate the response it will get from us as a community for putting that amazing product back on the shelves for our use. If Kodak only knew of the 10's of thousands of websites that contain photos used with Kodak HIE and how many thousands of galleries that contain beautiful art used with Kodak HIE, I certainly believe they would have not made this decision, because we as film photographers always tell our audience what we used to make that beautiful photo they are buying, or appreciating in a gallery or online website and that is major marketing for Kodak in general. All of that publicity will be a memory if this decision is not reversed, and when you consider the numbers of websites, and galleries that have photos using Kodak HIE and a photographer explaining that he could not have made such a fine work without the use of Kodak HIE film, the publicity loss to Kodak is enormous!

 

Thank you for your time in reading and forwarding this email to the people that made the decision to deprive our community of such a wonderful and brilliant Film!

 

Sincerely,

 

Luke Ballard, "Luke Ballard Photography LLC."

 

At least I tried. As the quote goes, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act"

 

Please act on this even if you don't use it, maybe one day something you love and use to make your work will be discontinued and you will feel the same. We have to keep all good Film alive! That is why this forum exist, to share the great and amazing art of Film Photography! My hat is off to you James for making an effort to at least try and keep one of the great films alive! I am fairly new to IR, and I have been shooting some other IR films as practice and was just about to really start puttting HIE to use now that I have some experience with IR when this happened, and Im not lieing, I can't find any of it anywhere, B@H is sold out and everywhere else I look it is gone also. The only ppl that are going to make a fourtune from this are the people with a good stock of it that don't use it and are going to sell it for outragious prices on Ebay. We should all be able to buy it as we have been for many years.

 

Thanks James, Keep the faith!

 

Luke

Folks: I hate to see HIE go. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but......

 

Recent history has shown that Kodak cannot make a profit selling HIE at the current sales levels.

 

Kodak is a for-profit business, not a supporter of fine art photography. The investors (owners) of the company demand this.

 

Your best bet is place an order for several million rolls of the HIE. Or however big an order they would need to be able to produce it at a profit.

 

Alternatively you could just buy control of Kodak. That should cost about US$ 4 Billion. Then tell management that as the new owners you want them to make fine art film without regard to how much money they lose.

 

Sorry but that is the reality of the world.

Probably a more effective "Campaign" would be if each person who wanted the product actually commit with cash to buy some product over the next few years. Wages, taxes, tooling are kept afloat by actual cash flow; not emails and requests. The facts are that products cannot be kept alive without sales; hard profitable sales figures.

You know, I just wrote a semi long email in response to the 2 comments above, but I deleted it. I don't have the care to get into it.

All I want to say is, thanks for the support, and thanks for the Economics and Business knowledge you just gave me, makes me wonder why I went to college and got 3 degrees. I should have just learned all I needed to know here.

 

Appreciate the support. When they discontinue one of your favorite films, I promise I will be a true Film photographer and support your Campaign to get it back. That?s a serious promise. I support all my fellow film photographers in any Campaign, even if I don't shoot the same film, or camera they do, it is about Film and shooting film. It is slowly going away and it starts with things like this. I am not just a Fine Art Photographer, I have a digital that I make my money with also, but I love and was born with film and will always shoot it until the last roll made. Let?s hope that a trend doesn't start of more and more films disappearing. Hey, since you are educating us, can you tell me why they discontinued Kodachrome? I?m really seriously curious? It was only one of the finest films ever made, and now ppl pay top dollar just to get a hold of expired Kodachrome. I think something should be said about the fact that most all Retailers sold out of HIE within days of its Demise. Guess nobody uses it or needs it. That is a pretty stark reality wouldn't you say? Kind of makes you wonder hu? Anyway, an answer to the Kodachrome question Would be really appreciated, cause I seriously don't know why they quit making it, expired lots of it are like gold now and sell for top dollar! EXPIRED LOTS. Hmm..Makes you wonder about demand. Anyway, off my soapbox now, but I will promise to support you when they discontinue one of your favorite films, that is a serious promise, whether I shoot the stuff or not, just because you are a film shooter and film is true photography. Keep up the Campaign James, who knows, the small man has changed large corporate America in many ways before! All it takes is action and dedicated people!

 

Humbly,

 

Luke

I believe that K-64 and Pro K-64 are still in production, only the 25 and 200 are gone.

<i> Anyway, an answer to the Kodachrome question Would be really appreciated, cause I seriously don't know why they quit making it, expired lots of it are like gold now and sell for top dollar! EXPIRED LOTS. Hmm..Makes you wonder about demand.</i><P>

So a relative handful of people are willing to pay two or three times retail for old film. That has no bearing on whether tens of thousands of people are willing to purchase enough of that film to make it profitable to keep it in production.

Kodak once made Kodachrome in sheets up to 11x14 inches. Once they made films in 828; film pack; 126 too. In observatory work in the 1970's we custom ordered glass plates that required months to have made; they came to us in dry ice frozen. With 8 track tapes NOAA radio kept the tooling afloat well after the audio sales died off; the tapes were used for the NOAA weather alert loops on the 162 Mhz band. If Kodak keeps films alive due to requests and not sales; then photographers can shoot weddings for fun with folks requests ; and little actual sales. A better * dream solution* that probably wont fly is if there is away to make smaller batches every few years; but then again film making often requires a huge batch even to make a few rolls. In a dream world makers would still be able to sell us products even as the sales tank. Any actual sales uptick in a film product line will get the CEO's attention more than requests. The super massive overhead on a specialty film product with little sales means the ax will come; unless its supported at a loss; which many products already are in anyway.

Again, thanks for lesson number 2 in economics. By the way, I was referring to 25 and 200 Kodachrome sorry I wasn't exact enough, that was my fault.

Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll support any of you if you loose a film you love!

 

"So a relative handful of people are willing to pay two or three times retail for old film. That has no bearing on whether tens of thousands of people are willing to purchase enough of that film to make it profitable to keep it in production."

 

You don't think there are an enourmous amount of people out there that simply just gave up after it was canceled, only the hardcore ppl that can afford the time and money still try and track it down, you don't think if it would be announced back in production that thousands would start buying it again? I know of a boat load of ppl myself that would. Wow, know a quite of number of ppl on this forum that would also. So yeah, I do believe. My University only quit buying HUGE lots of it because they canceled it. I had a professor that gave me a few expired rolls they found in the bookstore and he told me, the day they quit making this stuff, god, we had to change our entire photo program, at least we were shooting good film. They don't even sell color film in their bookstore anymore. That was the only Color Film they ever sold in thier store! Nowdays, they just say, go out and buy whatever you want, most kids go buy the 4 roll savings packs of Fugi Film ISO 400, you know the crap at Walmart that is terrible, 4 rolls for like $3.50 or whatever, and they wonder why thier pics look like crap! Some of us that had been shooting for years prior and were comming back to school just for the digital part, but had to go through film again, we went and bought Velvia and Provia, but those kids had no clue, I felt sorry for them in that sense. (Disclaimer here, im not knocking all Fugi Films, if you pay for the good stuff, you get good photos)

It was required (Until Production Stopped) that you shoot Kodachrome 25, 200. He also told me, in joking, if they put it back into production, we would require students to use it again, but that film is dead forever.

 

So, anyway I am done here.

 

My promise still stands. I don't need anymore economics education, got plenty in the 8 years of college I had. Thanks though guys and girls. Oh Kelly, thats funny about the 8 tracks, I still have 2 huge boxes of them in mint condition and I still have an 8 track player. Was funny you brought that up, I haven't thought about that thing in years.

Just curious, which Kodak film do you think Kodak gets its best sales from right now? Any type, format, just which one in ya'lls opinion? Cause you guys sound like Kodak Reps. Sorry :)

 

Take care!

 

Luke

<i> You don't think there are an enourmous amount of people out there that simply just gave up after it was canceled,</i><P>

I don't think Kodak decided to stop production of a very-popular and profitable product simply to spite its users. If enormous quantities of Kodachrome had been selling, they would have kept producing it.<P>

The use of Kodachrome (all speeds) has been declining dramatically for over a decade--it was being displaced by E6 films. If Kodachrome was as immensely popular as you seem to believe, why were there only two labs in the world that still process it?

Well there is actually only one lab in the world that develops Kodachrome, Dewaynes. Anyway, beaeting a dead horse here, just saying, it just seems that slowly some of the great films are dissapearing and its just a shame. I have about 5 Antiquue cameras in mint condition that I would love to shoot some photos with, but I can't cause the film format was discontiued a long time ago. Just a shame is all I am saying, but hey, Kodak just gave all its IR buisness to Rollie and Ilford, so good for those companies. Now I am buying Rollie and SFX. To bad, kodak lost my buisness, and many others. Hell, maybe I'll just start using all Ilford Products now, developers, stops, washes, photoflow, you name it, Who knows.

As said before, im done here. Ilford and Rollie seem to be doing ok with thier IR films, but HIE was always known as pretty much the best and Rollie and SFX were usually, well in my case practice film to use until I got good and some experience with IR then it was HIE that I would use for my finished works. So kuddos to Kodak giving away thier IR money to Ilford and Rollie and others. Sounds like a smart thing to me :) Just a thought. Something some companies don't realize I think also is just what I said, continuing to get rid of products that people love and do buy can lead to people taking thier buisness somewhere else for other things, which can finally lead to those products being discontinued also for lack of sales, but im sure they have plenty of PhD's figuring all that in and arn't to worried about it.

Hey its a forum here, can't we just vent sometimes when we loose something we love? I don't know about others here, but I am a dedicated film shooter, I stick with my fellow film shooters no mattter what, we are a community, that was kinda I think what the original post was trying to get at, meaning, hey even if you don't use it, or you think it is a lost cause, what does it cost you to write a simple email to help those of us that do love it and use it? Nothing and about 2 min to write. Thats it. Just sticking together as film shooters and a community. As said before, anybody else wants to fight to save a film that might be getting discontinued, im in, even if I don't use it. Called loyalty and community.

 

I think enough has been said here hu? Think we covered all the bases and everyone made good points. To those that did write in and those who did help, my thanks! To the others, thanks for the perspective and your opinions, honestly.

 

Luke

Bob and Mike, You make excellent points. The bottom line is no profit = no product. Not rocket science. What will happen if they continue to pour $$ into a film that makes no money? We all know film sales are dropping, and will probably continue to do so. If Kodak (and others) do not cull unprofitable films, over time they may go out of business and make NO FILM.

There's a quite educational thread on APUG about film production <a href="http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/44377-facts-film-production.html">here</a>...

I think a couple people here are misunderstanding Luke. I think he is _very_ well aware of basic economic principles, and I don't think another brief lesson in high-school economics is going to enlighten him or any of us to something we are not aware of. My take on this issue is that a film we love is being lost, and I know for a fact, I have not nearly shot as much of it as I would like to - many people are in the same boat. I don't think that Mr Ballard or anyone else is under the impression that a petition is a guaranteed way to keep any film alive, but it is an option that is currently open to us, the only one, really, for those who's pockets are not deep enough to individually influence the fates of a multinational corporation. It is worth a try, it takes very little from us and on the off-chance it works, reaps tremendous rewards. I say its worth.

I wonder how much of the perception of film's obscurity comes from the fact that film photographers feel powerless in the face of the digital epidemic and don't ever speak up.

Also, I believe that there are business models that would allow a company to prosper in the traditional photography market - if applied properly - and even make a profit. There is no doubt that film production is not what it was, and will never hold the same place it used to. But it will become nothing, we will have no choices at all, if we are not heard. I wholeheartedly support the idea of speaking up, and I can safely say this is a decision made with my brain and not just my heart.

One of my friends who works at the photo store in town recently told me that in 2006, Kodak announced that 50% of their products would be cancelled in 2007... or something like that.

 

They also told me that Kodak recently announced that you can no longer buy direct from Kodak. Instead, it'll be done thru a distributor... or something.

 

Was E-6 the demise of Kodachrome or was it the introduction of Velvia 50? And why were Ilford and Fuji able to bring back SFX 200 and Velvia 50? Did it become profitable for them? Off topic, but Sony sells Playstation 3 for a loss.

John-Paul,

 

AFAIK, Kodak still makes K-64 and Pro K-64, so Kodachrome isn't quite dead yet.

 

Lots of things have wounded it: the faster service of E-6, (you can do E-6 in your bathroom), the color-on-steroids of E-6 (especially Velvia), and E-6 is a less expensive process than K-14.

 

The jury is still out on whether SFX will be a money maker for Ilford; so far, so good, but remember, it will only be made once a year.

Hmm, didn't Konica only have one run a year of their IR film too? That was more like SFX 200, but with finer grain?

Thank you Peter!

 

Finally someone that understood what I was really trying to say. I will let your words stand as mine cause I couldn't have said it better and obviously I didn't in my prior post.

 

Something you mentioned, about a business prospering in a film photography market. Well I am living proof of that. I run my own photography Lab and Operation. I shoot Digital yes, but only for things such as Weddings and Some portraiture, however my main source of income and 80% of my money comes from,

1. People wanting me to process thier Black and White film by hand because they either can't remember how, or don't have supplies.

2. Original WET Enlargments from 35mm to 4x5 formats. I enlarge for clients that are currently shooting, and ppl that have old negatives that want it done the old way cause of the look and the time that the photo will last, meaning out last an ink print, by many years.

3. Scanning of Negatives into digital format from 35mm to 120. Also scanning some larger negs once and awhile.

4. My Fine Art Work, I shoot a lot of Fine Art photography of Landscape, Figure Study, and Abstract Art. Most of that gets submitted to galleries and sells at gallery openings and I make money like that also, providing people with beautiful unique photos to decorate thier homes with and own as art.

 

I have made my niche and making very good money because I am the only person withen 500 miles of a radius that can do it, and has a full setup lab and enlarging setup to do it and 20+ yrs experiencedoing it,(I for sure am still learning everyday believe me, so I may have experience, but I don't think I am all knowing believe me!) and I am one of the only Pro Photographers around that still shoots or even owns a film camera. I market the benifits of film over digital to the public in my area and they see how it can really be amazing. That film is really amazing and different film types can give us amazing things, such as HIE.

 

I have 20+ years in shooting and processing, and enlarging. I have seen film and its greatness dissapear more and more as companies boast about digital and cancel film production. When I got my Fine Arts Degree in Photography, in critique I would sometimes see digital photos that other students had shot and manipulated so intensly I asked the question, are you a photographer, or are you a Graphic Designer? Most photograhers today in the phone book couldn't shoot a film camera and make a dollar cause they have never even owned one and without photoshop, they couldn't even get a proper photo the first time around. If people don't speak up about why film is important to keep alive, then as said before, it will all be gone one day then why do we even need to talk about it. This is our only way as said above, it doesn't take much, probably won't change anything, but hey, worth a try hu? Cost you nothing but 2 min of your time to send an email.

 

Good luck all and thanks for the post Peter.

 

Happy shooting all!

 

Luke

Here I have used film for over 50 years. With our process camera; its film work got killed off by digital; only it happened back when a pro dslr was 1.3 megapixel; and amatuers rig was a grand and vga. Our first 36 inch engineering digital scanner had the latest processor; a 386. What extended the films runs for our big camera was actual orders; hording; freezing film, buying up surplus stocks etc. This is with an asa 6 product for negatives; and way les than this for projection film. High speed camera films and infrared has a radically lower shelf life than asa lith films. With the old 386 we scanned drawings in with 386's controller. printed them, and had a 9600 bps modem on our BBSThe entire scan software we used was designed before windows came out. <BR><BR>Writing an email cannot hurt; a real giant order will get managemnts attention. The economics of running a giant film line are not understood by most photographers. Its not simple economics; its a giant complex expensive process with a massive burn rate of chemicals, tooling and labor. Thousands of feet to miles are run to sppol up a film line and get the process right. A lone email might be like trying to stop a freight train with a bb gun. <BR><BR>Digital is really quite ancient; it killed off process camera work between 20 to 15 years ago; basically fully dead by 10 years ago. This film industry was dying before Photoshop was born. <BR><Br>An industry like buggywips or horseshoes can survive because there is not a massive factory/process to support like infrared film. Horseshoes don't degrade on the shelf like film.

Kelly,

 

You make valid points. I do see that. And I remember usinf 1200 baud modems and when 20meg hardrives were huge!

 

The last thing I am going to say about this, is kinda what Peter was meaning I think, that is, this "Campagin" isn't just about Kodak HIE, its about all films. You love film, so do I. So we should all (Film Lovers) bond together and let the companies know, we still use it, love it, and it makes us money. Film makes me more money than Digital, WAY MORE! In this day and age, thats pretty amazing, that as a Pro Photographer, you can make more moeny using film and its systems, than you can with a Canon 1D or D5 and photoshop. There is something to be said there.

 

To: Ansel Adams

 

From: Luke B.

 

I know you are rolling over in your grave, but your film photography lives on and I love it, just as you did when you were packing hundreds of pounds of equipment up to the top of Yosemite to make works that people pay thousands for today.

 

I understand you Kelly, I understand what you are saying, but if you love film as much as me, just quit arguing about symantics and Economics and write a freaking email. Who knows, it has happened with other films, they have been pulled, then an uprising caused the company to put them back in production.

You know, for a multi-million dollar corp. to take a loss in some departments is a good thing! Better than paying at the end of the year right?

 

Most Milti Million dollar companies I know of try and find a place to show a loss somewhere just to help them in taxes. So, what the hell?

 

If you care about film, just write a simple email...if you don't, then go to the digital forum and support digital.

 

 

 

 

L.