Eco-friendly developer and fixer?

Hello again

I'm bugging this forum more often than I should, but it only speaks of high qualification of people on here, doesn't it? ;)

This time I have a problem with black and white chemicals. Unfortunately no logistic company will agree to import any sort of chemicals to Georgia unless they are safe for airmail. This is determined by MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Unfortunately I was unable to find any developer and fixer, MSDS of which would state that they are safe for airmail. As a result, I can not import those materials and have to rely solely on our local lab for BW processing. Sadly they aren't very flexible and results from various black and white films look almost the same.

I have read that one can make a developer from readily available materials, BUT I can't find the same for fixer. Unless I have a fixer, there's no point in making a developer. So, my question is:

1. Can one make a fixer on their own?

2. Is there any eco-friendly duo of developer and fixer which would be safe for airmail?

Little help, anyone?

Sodium thiosulfate is used as a dechlorinator in swimming pools. If you can find that, it should be possible to make a decent fixer.

As for the MSDS, I don't think they always come right and say if things can be airmailed, since the people who write those don't control the policies of the shipping companies.

Out of curiosity, are the only getting picky about liquids, or is this for liquids and solids both?

If you can get away with solids, D76, Dektol, and Xtol are all viable options. Kodak sells "hypo" in a white/yellow bag like developers also.

Lots of people use "Caffenol" as a B&W developer. Instant Coffee, Washing Soda, Vitamin-C powder and maybe something else. ;) Some may feel that it doesn't qualify as a "proper" developer but I've had good results with it for slower films. I don't think it's well suited for 400 or faster but there may be a recipe for that which works for those films as well.

I don't really have an answer for fixer. That is the one thing I do buy. For stop bath I just dilute some vinegar.

Lots of people use "Caffenol" as a B&W developer. Instant Coffee, Washing Soda, Vitamin-C powder and maybe something else. ;) Some may feel that it doesn't qualify as a "proper" developer but I've had good results with it for slower films. I don't think it's well suited for 400 or faster but there may be a recipe for that which works for those films as well.

 

I don't really have an answer for fixer. That is the one thing I do buy. For stop bath I just dilute some vinegar.

Yes, that's what's holding me back - I can't get my hands on fixer. The rest can be fabricated.

Sodium thiosulfate is used as a dechlorinator in swimming pools. If you can find that, it should be possible to make a decent fixer.

Something tells me that's not readily available in stores.

I neither know your Legalese nor much about Chemistry. - Have you tried the practical approach of teaming up with some other film user to receive your share of fixer?

Around here dentists and similar small medical branches still X-Ray on film.

I haven't heard of a film less silkscreen printinging process either.

I neither know your Legalese nor much about Chemistry. - Have you tried the practical approach of teaming up with some other film user to receive your share of fixer?

Around here dentists and similar small medical branches still X-Ray on film.

I haven't heard of a film less silkscreen printinging process either.

Not an option. The only way to get those chems legally is to be a film lab. And they won't sell it to consumers, for obvious reasons.

Common salt (sodium chloride) can be used as a fixer, or so I've read. A high concentration is needed apparently, and it probably doesn't make the film as permanent as a proper fixer.

I believe that Fox-Talbot used common salt in his early experiments.

Should keep the film clear long enough to scan it though.

FWIW, the search for a way of rendering images permanent was the holy grail of early photography pioneers. It held back the practical application of photography for years, since the blackening of lunar caustic (silver nitrate) by light was commonly known. Thiosulphate salts of sodium or ammonium are still the cheapest, safest and most efficient way to fix film. They are actually fire-retardants, so shipping them by air shouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately no logistic company will agree to import any sort of chemicals to Georgia unless they are safe for airmail.

Sounded to me as if logistics companies are unwilling to add demanded warning signs or fire extinguishers and similar to their parcel delivery vehicles or to school drivers. <- Stuff that might be demanded around here.

I'd be very surpriseded if they banned you as a consumer from buying and backpacking 2 gal of fixer concentrate and moving them home on ground. - I might be off.

Something tells me that's not readily available in stores.

Might not be super easy to find but I'm thinking a pool/hot tub/spa supply store would have it (Sodium thiosulfate)

Not an option. The only way to get those chems legally is to be a film lab. And they won't sell it to consumers, for obvious reasons.

Hi, the next obvious thing, to me, is the question, can you become your own film lab? Have you looked into what the "qualifications" would be?

Also, you indicated that "they" won't sell it to consumers... do you mean that film labs won't sell it? Have you asked them? Or offered more money? I don't know what their concern is, but perhaps if you agree to return the used fixer to them for disposal?

I'm just really confused as to what the real problem is. If it's strictly only a shipping issue, I'd think you would be able to find someone in your town who would be willing to piggyback your order onto their own for an extra fee - enough profit to be worthwhile for them; if not your existing film lab then perhaps a pharmacy, etc.

As a last resort, perhaps an aquarium supply outfit - sodium thiosulfate is listed as a component of "water conditioner" to remove chlorine from water for use in fish tanks.

The problem with importing or even simply buying chems is that several years ago some "genius" discovered that they could use bath salts as a drug (or to fabricate drugs, can't remember) and back then importing that stuff was allowed. Later on, government simply banned such actions and saved the day. Chem supply stores disappeared one by one.

And now those who want to use chemicals for non-narco purposes must become official organizations, be that medical, scientific or photographic. Which means I have to become a legal entity with an office/lab area with all the necessary equipment and so on.

As for why film labs refuse to sell their materials, film photography isn't very popular here anymore - after digital (and especially mobile phone) photography became a thing people can get instant results, don't have to wait for development/printing, it's convenient for uploading on Cancergram and Tumorbook too. So the labs would much rather keep their clients on a short leash. Also due to government regulations, partly.

I'll check the pet shops for conditioner, because common salt sounds too good to be true.

Film photography might not be so popular, but digital printers using photographic paper are still pretty popular.

I get my Christmas cards printed that way, and so still think of them as ''photographic''.

Somehow inkjet doesn't seem quite the same.

But RA-4 uses a bleach-fix, which won't be useful for black and white printing.

Thank you all for your time! I have finally found a safe fixer, which clearly states in their MSDS that it IS SAFE to airmail. The fixer is "Fomafix P".

Seems to be a usual sodium thiosulfate fixer, but if they mail it, and not the other ones, that is good.

Seems to be a usual sodium thiosulfate fixer, but if they mail it, and not the other ones, that is good.

As long as it works...

I've also found a developer "Fomatol P", MSDS of which also states it's safe for airmail. The official website says "It is equivalent to the developer Kodak D76 or Ilford ID11" so how exactly it's safe for airmail, I don't know. Perhaps Czech republic has different regulations regarding the chemicals.

Official charts say nothing about dilution. But if it's "equivalent of D76", can I probably use dilution ratios/development times of D76?

Nevermind that, found what I wanted already.

Kodak Rapid Fix Formula

Water 50 degrees Celsius 600ml

Sodium Thiosulfate (hypo) 360ml

Ammonium Chloride 50 grams

Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 15 grams

Acetic Acid 28% 47ml

Boric Acid (crystal) 7.5 grams

Potassium Alum 15 grams

Add cold water to make 1000ml

Essential to add the ammonium chloride after the hypo, but before all other ingredients to avoid formation of sludge. This fixer good for fine grain films and all photo papers. Fix time is quick -- test in light swish a scrap of film in the fixer. Watch the film change from opaque to transparent. Fix time is twice the time it takes to clear film. Over fixing will begin to induce bleaching of the image.

this is funny... my Canadian friend is buying his bulk chemicals from russia and you cant get chemicals?

Due to complicated relations with Яussia, importing goods from there is so difficult that it's more convenient to buy overseas.

Viable alternatives to 'hypo' as a fixer look even less likely to be readily available.

From an old 1920s(?) copy of the Dictionary of Photography:

"Fixing. ..... The usual method of affecting this.... is by the solvent action of Hyposulphite or Thiosulphite of Sodium; cyanide of potassium, sulphocyanide of potassium or ammonium, and sulphite of sodium, have also been recommended."

The solvent action of sodium sulphite in developers is well-known, but I've seen no other mention of its use as a fixer.

The Dictionary of Photography goes on to say: "R. E. Liesegang has suggested the use of Thiosinamine as a fixing agent..." and elsewhere mentions the use of Thiourea (Thiocarbimide) as a fixer, but gives no details as to concentration or formulation.

From the above, it's easy to see why sodium or ammonium thiosulphate became the fixing agents of choice.

Now that you said it, my dad has some Russian recipe books from early 20th century. The problem with them is that owning most of the chemicals mentioned there can send me directly to jail. Especially considering how "wise" our policemen are and how dumb I was while importing a mildly radioactive Olympus lens.

I have sent the MSDS sheets not only of fixer, but developer as well and authorities confirmed that I can safely import them. That's funny because according to the website, Foma developer is equivalent of D76, which was rejected earlier for being contagious.

Kodak Rapid Fix Formula

Water 50 degrees Celsius 600ml

Sodium Thiosulfate (hypo) 360ml

Ammonium Chloride 50 grams

Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 15 grams

Acetic Acid 28% 47ml

Boric Acid (crystal) 7.5 grams

Potassium Alum 15 grams

Add cold water to make 1000ml

 

Essential to add the ammonium chloride after the hypo, but before all other ingredients to avoid formation of sludge. This fixer good for fine grain films and all photo papers. Fix time is quick -- test in light swish a scrap of film in the fixer. Watch the film change from opaque to transparent. Fix time is twice the time it takes to clear film. Over fixing will begin to induce bleaching of the image.

Alan,

I made up some fixer this afternoon per your "recipe" and I just have a few questions.

First of all, is this a working strength solution?

Second, I didn't have a hypo solution. I made a 240g/1L solution of sodium thiosulfate and used your prescribed 360mL of that solution. Does this sound reasonable to you?

Thanks.