E6 chemistry question

I�m currently shooting and enjoying E6 films (have been for years)

and am wondering about the longevity of the E6 chemistry. I do my own

developing at home in a Jobo CPP-2 and thoroughly enjoy doing it. The

problem I�m running into is that I�m not shooting the amount of film

I once did, so I�m saving my exposed film in the freezer until I have

enough to mix up a 5L kit (Kodak). This was fine when I shot more,

but it�s annoying now. It�s gotten so bad I�ve actually considered

digital, except I do love slides. Unfortunately, the lab in my area

is horrible; scratches and exposure problems are the norm. My own

developing is light years ahead of theirs, so switching to a lab is

not really an option.

 

I�m looking for ways to maximize my Kodak 5L kit. How long are some

of you getting the developers to last? I was thinking of breaking up

the kit concentrates into 5, 1L kits. This way, I could process fewer

rolls at a time. Any suggestions or ides would be greatly appreciated.

Buy your chemistry in larger quantities; then mix up only as much as you need for each batch. You can also save money that way, including reusing the tail-end chemistry.

Rob;

 

The Kodak web site gives instructions for doing what you suggest. They tell you how to break E6 kits down into smaller quantities for home processing in small batches. I don't have the URL here, but just go to the site and search for E6 processing, then look on that page. There are instructions for several different combinations.

 

I think that the concentrates don't keep as well after the bottles are opened. I have a cylinder of Nitrogen in my darkroom to flush bottles of oxygen and hopefully preserve the concentrates. A tank of nitrogen is inexpensive and can last you for half a lifetime.

 

Regards.

 

Ron Mowrey

Thanks for the suggestions. I've broken down the kit before with good results, but I haven't stored them for extended periods as I used to shoot a lot more. Now that photography is taking a back seat (new house and family), chemical longevity is a concern. If I had access to a decent lab, I'd use their services. I'm thinking of splitting up the kit into 1L sizes. Everything would be kept in glass bottles with all the air expelled and tightly capped. I was even thinking of keeping the concentrates in a small dedicated refrigerator in my darkroom, perhaps at 40 degrees. This would keep them in the dark and the temp will hopefully slow down the rate of oxidation. Anyone have any experience with refrigerating developers?

 

I really do not want to consider a digital camera as I'm used to shooting with a Nikon F4s and F100. Getting a digital camera that is comparable to either of these would be very expensive. I've looked at the cheaper alternatives (D70 and D100) but frankly I'm disappointed, so film is still my best option. Besides I'm completely set up for film processing, it's just the chemistry that's causing concern.

Rob;

 

Refrigeration can cause chemicals to precipitate from the concentrates, and this is ungood as it is sometimes difficult to redisolve them.

 

A 4 foot tank of nitrogen is about $25 here. That is enough for years of use, once you pay for the cylinder itself. (I didn't pay for mine, I had it given to me, so I don't know how much they are.)

 

Anyhow, I have kept mixed solutions for over a year in Jobo plastic containers without the nitrogen, and glass is better. I have some C41 chemistry that I have had since Christmas and it still looks good with no nitrogen.

 

So, watch out for refrigeration, and try keeping the chemistry in glass or good plastic in a cool dry spot and watch the developer or fix. If the developer darkens or the fix sulfurizes, you know you have a problem. Color developer in E6 turns dark brown, but the MQ is not a good indicator of quality. The MQ will sometimes get grunge. The reversal bath can brown, but it can go bad with little warning AFAIK. They did change the reversal bath recently and I don't have much information on it.

 

Bleach and fix concentrate and working solutions keep a long time, even used. Stabilizer keeps a long time in a sealed bottle. Stabilizer fumes are toxic. Don't keep it near food!

 

Good luck.

 

Ron Mowrey

Agfa makes a 500ml kit. It's relatively expensive but it's better then throwing out chemicals. If you really feel adventurous then I think the E-6 formulas have been published. The dry chemicals will tend to keep quite awhile. Usually much longer then premixed chemistry. You'll just need to mix up what you need.

 

http://opie.net/orphy/photo/dr/wkft-e6.html

 

If you buy your chemicals in reasonable sizes [not 100 grams at a time but more like a couple of pounds] then the cost is actually lower. NB I haven't tried this formula. The simple solution is to shoot more-)

The formulas published at that site:

 

http://opie.net/orphy/photo/dr/wkft-e6.html

 

are usable to an extent, but are not correct! The MQ has a glaring problem in it! I would warn you that the result will not have the proper grain, interimage or edge effects (sharpness).

 

Use of a ferricyanide bleach bath is certainly permissable, but there is no clearing bath in that process, and you risk unacceptably high D-min due to this lack when using ferricyanide. This problem will vary depending on the efficiency of the wash after the stop bath.

 

The fix may not clear out all of the silver salts from the film. It is not strong enough for doing the job right.

 

It is obvious that the person who came up with those formulas did a good job, and his results seem to justify it from the posted pictures, but with no comparisons, how can anyone be sure that the results from real E6 wouldn't be better. Espeically at that magnification, what can we really tell.

 

I would not trust my film to that process. Sorry.

 

Ron Mowrey

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I don�t think I�m in to trying to mix my chemicals from scratch; I�ve read some of the formulas and it�s a little involved for the time I have at this point. I think I�m going to try to find either the Agfa 500ml kits or perhaps the smaller Tetenal kits. If that fails or if it�s too expensive, I�m going to try and break up the Kodak kit making sure to keep everything in glass bottles with NO AIR. I�ll keep them out of the light and as cool as possible to avoid the solutions from precipitating.

 

Rowland, I have a half used E6 Kodak 5L kit at home that I opened about 4 months ago (all concentrates in glass bottles), how would I know if the reversal bath was bad?

I think the formulas intially come out of the Britsh journal of photography. I know they've been around for along time. More then 10 years.

To test reversal bath, do this in total darkness....

 

Soak an unexposed piece of any film whatsoever in the bath for about 5 mins at room temp. Rinse for about 2 mins at room temp, then put into any good developer solution recommended for that film for the recommended time.

 

Use stop and fix in the dark then go light. The film should be totally developed with no uneven spots.

 

You should test this first with known good reversal bath to check yourself out and calibrate yourself.

 

BTW, similar tests can be devised for every solution. For example, that piece of fully developed film can now be used to test the bleach and fix. It should come out completely clear if you bleach and fix it for the recommended time and if the developer was an MQ. This will be somewhat misleading if the film is color film as those are harder to bleach and fix, but it can be used as a yardstick. If you use a color developer, the dyes will mask silver removal.

 

You can do a test of the CD or MQ in the light by sticking in a piece of film and observing if you get silver and / or dye formed. If it does and you get a good D-max, then your developer is probably ok. Again, calibrate yourself with known good solutions so you know what to look for. It isn't hard to do.

 

Remember that these are only rough yardsicks, but with a little eyeball calibration, you can do a very good job of estimating the quality of your solutions.

 

Good luck.

 

Ron Mowrey

I bought my Kodak 5 liter E-6 kit in summer last year. I have since

mixed 500ml at a time many times so far and I probably have just about

the amount of concentrate enough for the last 500 ml. I mixed 2 batches

of 500 ml working solutions a week ago and developed 4 roles of Velvia

and Astia 220 films. I had concerns if the chemicals were good enough

as it has been at least 9 months since I first opened the bottles

and the fact I was for the last few drops. I used a JOBO ATL-2300.

I set the first developer time to be 7 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

All films came out with proper density but the contrast was still

hiher than I would like as I scan all the films. The contrast made

it really difficult to scan with my CCD based film scanner.

 

I can't say I am completely happy with the result but I think the

Kodak E-6 chemical did perform much better, in terms of mixing at

smaller quantities, than I expected. I think the first half of the kit

was basically worry free for me. And the 2nd half seemed not fail on

me.

 

However, I somehow feel that the Kodak 5L kit is a hack. I think

it is different from the normal gallon sized E-6 kit from Kodak.

I think it is formulated to be used one shot only and because of

that it actually performs poorer. Next time I will use the gallon

sized kit and still mix 500 ml at a time. The main reason I get

this feeling is because I did need to make the first developer time

to be 7 minutes and 30 seconds so that the film will not be too dark.

Years ago with Kodak's Hobby Pack it took only 6 minutes.

You souped your film with a half stop push at the 7:15 to 7:30 minute First Dev time, and this gave you the unwanted contrast.

 

Next time, stick to the normal 6:00 minute First Dev time, like I do in my ATL-3. Incidentally, Fuji recommends 5:00 minutes for some of their films.

Jobo recommands 6:30 first development as regular but increase 10% for

all Fujichromes except Astia. I tried 6:30 and the film came out too

dark. I then tried 7:00 it was still dark. I tried 7:15 then it looked

better. I finally did 7:30 and the result looked fine. It was too

contrasty only to the scanner CCD. I think 6:00 is what I used to do

many years ago and I had god results. With the Kodak 5L kit 6:00 will

yield way too dark result even to my eys. I may have an exposure issue

that I am balming on the processing. Kodak 5L one shot kit is good

in terms of ease of mixing, concentration longevity after opening

the bottles, etc. But in terms of processing result I am not completely

happy even using my ATL-2300 with it. Again I should double check my

film exposure before making such conclusion. Now I have no confidence

on my camera's auto, my handheld sekonic and Gossen Pro any more.

They seem all need calibration. I'll set my ATL to 6:00 and shoot my

films with a wide range bracketing and see what happens.

Kodak states on its web site that one kit is for single use chemistry in a drum process, and the other is not. The mixing instructions and process cycles differ slightly as well.

 

Try starting here:

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/Zmanuals/z119.shtml

 

This is not exactly the page I was at before, but it is a good starting point.

 

Ron Mowrey

I did some more searching:

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/ti2443/ti2443.jhtml?id=0.1.16.14.30.14.3.22.20.3&lc=en#stepcond

 

This gives 6 - 7 mins. One place I found gives 6 mins MQ with standard kits and 7 mins with the rotary tube kit. Another place gives instructions for the US kit and the European kit.

 

So, there is not a simple answer to E6 processing it seems. I use what is packed with the kit or color developer.

 

Regards.

 

Ron Mowrey

try this link:

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/chemicals/qaE6.shtml

Kodak's z119 pages have an entry for rotary tube processing instructions.

It is probably the instructions for JOBO users. It does say 7:00 for

the first developer which is basically what JOBO said. But JOBO also

said it should be increased by 10% for all Fujichromes except Astia.

This increment does not apply to all Ektachromes. I found this being

a good suggestion from JOBO. I found Astia lighter in density without

adding time to the first developer.

 

It is interesting that Kodak says the reversal bath chemical should

be diluted to 60% concentration. However, JOBO says for Kodak 5L kit

it should not be diluted. It would increase contrast too much.

 

My experience many years (and jobs) ago Kodak's E-6 chemical kit was

extremely easy to use. I did manual processing without accurate

temperature bath in a film tank and the result was always good eenough

for me. My camera at the time was a SLR with no meter. Well, today

I use a JOBO ATL-2300 and my camera is a Pentax 67II with AE prism.

The E-6 chemical is Kodak 5L one shot E-6. The result is much worse

so far after experiementing with almost the entire 5 liter content

and many many roles of 220 films. My camera is still like new

bought new last year. My ATL-2300 is in perfect condition. I can only

guess it is Kodak that has screwed up. Well, I have to prove it.

I will switch the chemical and see if it makes a difference. Before

that I will as planned shoot another roll with a wide range of

bracketing and set the first developer time to 7:00 as Kodak suggested

on my last few drops of the 5l kit.

 

Did I mention the color balance was obviously off as a result? All my

Astia and Velvia films came out too contrasty and skin tone way off.

It's hard to describe how it is off. There is not enough yellow and

the hills are far too dark green. The sky is still blue though.

Obviously I am not happy with the stuff. I, like Ron, do not like

digital but I have all these problems with slide films. Well, one

of the Velvia came out OK once. But the rest have been bad enough ...

 

Dave

Dave;

 

Could you post one of those slides? That problem sounds familiar to me.

 

ITMT, could you tell me if there is the subtle hint of a fine halo around some items in the picture? Like an edge effect or Sabattier effect? It is reminding me, from your description, of incomplete reversal and / or incomplete bleach and fix. This often shows up

just about the way you describe.

 

Also, you might photograph a color chart and run it through, then post it. I will try to give you some help if I can from that. Maybe I can come up with something.

 

A lot of work has gone into making these kits work with a variety of films and processing equipment. I know how hard the guys work there to get it right.

 

Let us know how it is going.

 

Ron Mowrey

Just out of curiosity, how long would you say the reversal bath concentrate should last. It's fairly easy to tell when the developers have gone bad, but the reversal is tricky. Any ballpark time frame?

Rob;

 

I have 2 bottles of reversal concentrate. One is about 5 years old and has turned brown. It has no ingredients on the label. The other is clear and brand new. It lists Stannous Chloride, Propionates and a phosphonated organic compound. The 5 year old one does not work, the new one does. They both smell similar, kinda like aceitc acid. Probably the propionic acid.

 

So, we have maybe a 5 year window there, maybe more, IDK.

 

Try the suggestion for testing I made above. Stannous chloride should be stable without air around. (Tin Chloride - my Merck index says "Powerful reducing agent. Decomposes to Oxychloride in air. Keep tightly closed.").

 

If you have any doubts use a light reversal exposure the way we used to way back when. It still works just fine, as long as you bring your tank back up to the right temperature with water before continuing with the process.

 

Ron Mowrey

you only need to dilute the reversal bath further with the one-gallon kits. the 5 liter kits should be good to go for tube processing. at the most, you might have to make some pH adjustments to the color developer.

 

I've used both the one-gallon kits (both the old & new) and the 5 liter kits. The 5 liter kits are much easier to mix up.

 

fwiw-- I use a larger type of rotary processor than a jobo--first dev time is 6 minutes. I think the range is 6-8 or so, with 6-6:45 being optimum. Best thing to do is to run tests or control strips--nail down the first dev time and then run your real film. The real film may or may not match up to the process--in the end, the EI may need to be changed against your "normal" time--or the color may need to be filtered back. It's imporant to have a consistent method upfront though--and make changes in small increments when troublehsooting,, because there are alot of things that can (and will) go wrong.

 

BTW--the one-gallon sized chem will cost about twice as much or more than the 5 liter kits. For one-shot processing, they're probably the best from Kodak. The best E6 is the replenished stuff though.

 

hope this helps.

btw Dave, when you say Kodak's screwed up the process....well, in my case, after going through a month of control strip hell, and checking studio lights with a color meter...it appears the culprit is fujichrome. everything needs to be shot with a 10CCM. doesn't matter if we send the film out to the local pro fuji lab or send it to the local Q lab. All the same....10 pts magenta.

 

Kodak control strips look great though.

I was considering Argon to flush out my bottles of concentrates as number one, it is heavier than air (nitrogen is actually lighter than air as most here already know) and number two, it is an inert gas and will not react with anything. But...how much more expensive per pound is Argon over Nitrogen?

 

Also, how much are the cylinders assuming one has to buy them? Thanks in advance.

Don;

 

A cylinder of Nitrogen here is about $25. Argon is a lot more expensive, but I don't know per cylinder. I know we used to buy Nitrogen and Argon by the truckload at EK, and the Argon was a lot more and that is about it. We just went and filled up our Dewar flask with the liquid, or got a tank of gas off the loading dock.

 

You can buy a cylinder or rent one. Since a cylinder of Nitrogen lasts so long, rental may kill you. I had my tanks given to me, so IDK how much they run, but if you are serious, it is worth it. Valves may or may not be on your list as well. I have a set and reduce my pressure to 20 PSI. Unregulated / unreduced pressure might be too hard to handle.

 

DK;

 

About 10 years ago, Fuji went through a period when it looked pretty bad run through a standard E6 process. Fuji tests came out ok in their process. There were a lot of articles about this, and sample pix in the photo magazines at the time. IMO, both EK and Fuji may run in and out of this type of problem with their color products. IDK for sure, but what you describe is really similar to the problems back in the early 90s.

 

Good luck to you all.

 

Ron Mowrey

Thanks for all the great info, I�m going to try and make time to process a few rolls next weekend and use up the rest of my 5L kit. I guess I�ll run a clip test before running my film through.

 

During my next kit, I�m going to keep detailed notes on my storage conditions and times so that maybe I�ll be able to pass along some assistance to someone in the future. One thing I have found that helps me get consistent (and excellent) results is that I use distilled water for mixing all my working solutions and for my rinses. I costs a little more, but I get 4L jugs of distilled for $1.25.

 

As others have mentioned, do not dilute the reversal bath for the Kodak 5L kit as it is already at the correct dilution.

 

In regards to keeping air out of my concentrate bottles, I transfer the solutions to glass bottles of the exact size or use glass bottles with marbles to displace the air. I have bottles of every size and shape imaginable; I could probably start my own recycling depot. Most of these I�ve scrounged from the grocery store; it�s amazing the odd sized bottles you can find.