Drop in photography business

I have been shooting youth sports photography for four years. This has always

been a side business/hobby for me. I have never sold a large number of photos,

but it was enough to make it worthwhile and justify the significant amount of

time and money I put into it. I shoot a lot of individual games as well as

some events.

 

I have noticed a large decrease in my business in the last year. Many teams I

have shot for in the past have not called me because they have a parent on the

team that takes pictures during the season and gives a free CD of all the

pictures at the end of the season.

 

My experience has been that most people are happy with free photos of various

quality rather than paying for some nice quality shots. I do not shoot for

any teams anymore where someone gives away photos. I have found it much

harder to find teams that are worth shooting as this is very common in my area.

 

There is a local high school that I do a lot of pictures for. Last year a

varsity basketball parent took some pretty good pictures of the team that I

had done the last few years. He gave CDs to all the families and also did

free collages for them. When I took lacrosse photos for the school, a team

mom called and asked if I would donate all my pictures on CDs to the kids. I

told her I would not. In my opinion, when people have the gall to ask for

your product for free, you have a big problem.

 

I am seriously considering selling the large investment in equipment I have

and hanging it up. In my experience, people are valuing good quality

photography less and less.

 

I am curious about your experience and opinion in this area.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

Peter.

I am just starting out in MTB photography, I originally went to a race with some mates competing with a point & shoot, but over time upgraded to a DSLR and feel I'm getting reasonable quality shots now and still improving.

I agree that many are happy getting whatever free shots they can. While I am at the events I get many enquiries about buying my stuff but only a few people have followed that through. There are lots of mums, dads and mates out there whose photo's end up posted on internet forums and offer the full res images for free, and I have even been criticised on these forums for charging for full res files

I priced these reasonably I feel, midway between 5x7 & 8x10 prints with discounts for multiple images, but in the end I think many have been just downloaded from the low res watermarked samples I posted.

A shame I feel because while this was a niche I would have enjoyed filling, even as a sideline, it would seem that way too much time would be invested for potential returns. I'll still shoot at races that my friends are competing in and enjoy the kudos I get from them, and hopefully I will get some more published but I don't think the potential for a business is there.

Peter, the phenomenom is universal. Old school photography has had adverse time since the mass arrival of digital gears. Many companies who used to do their catalogues by professionals have bought a digital camera and perhaps some sort a strobo and someone from the company shoots the bulk of the catalogue. In one case I know it is the son of the owner whot takes the photos for almost hobby. In weekly and monthly journals commercial competition has forced editors to get photos from the writing journalists instead of photographers. In many cases the photog is not replaced when he/she is retiring. And many times, the list price of photos in agencys are completely out of editor's possibilities. There is a boom of agencies who take photos from freelancers and hobbyists and pass the photos with a fraction of the price of the name agencies.<p>

Essentially, digitalisation has meant democratisation in photography. Almost anyone can take a DECENT photo, "a good enough" photo. I just wonder what is left for someone who only does film and has no Photoshop skills?

Peter,

 

I shoot youth sports every weekend here in Australia, if you are just shooting normal every day shots and expecting people to but them year after year, you will see a drop in sales. What you need to do is find a new area of expertise. The company I shoot for make a heck of a lot more money out of the collages they sell than the single shots. You need to make yourself stand out from the moms and dad shooters, show that there is a difference between a pro shooter and a part time amatuer. And whether you want to admit it or not, your are a pro, as you make money from photography.

 

Have a look at some of the stuff we do here...

 

http://www.boxandicesp.com.au/pages/products.htm

 

The site is a little slow, he is working on that.

 

Mike Brown (Melbourne Australia)

The underlying assumption in everyone's posts here seems to be that those parents who take photos and give them away free don't take good photos (or at least are inferior to you). Why do you feel that way? Are their equipment inferior to yours? Did you ask them how long they've been photographing? Have you looked at what they shoot?

 

Do you think you have a "right" to sell your photos and that the parents are somehow infringing on your rights?

Posting as an athletic and sometimes flamboyant whitewater kayaker (and I'm at worst a competent photog myself) who sometimes end up the subject in sports photos without being asked whether I'm interested first:

 

1. I do buy photos of myself from pro photogs, such as jumping off waterfalls and such. But beware - I have a bunch already. Yours had better be really really really good. Don't expect an instant or easy sale. Yes, I already have a half-dozen 20' waterfall shots. Another average one won't light my fire.

 

2. Since I have a bunch already, yours will have to (at the very least) be in focus, sharp, well composed. You'll have to catch me at the peak of action, and make it a pretty dynamic / dramatic image. *That's* what I'm willing to pay money for, since I already have a bunch of action photos taken by friends with water-resistant P&S film cameras on wilderness runs, up close. Yours has to be better than that. Free market and all that.

 

A thought - perhaps the parents who aren't willing to spend are in the same boat I am, except that they don't recognize the diff. between the photos they've gotten for free, and the ones you've taken?

 

No offense meant in any of the above. Just bringing in a different angle, as a subject instead of a photog.

Peter- What you are experiencing is ubiquitous in the youth sports market. Two years ago

it seemed like every time I showed up at an event, one of those guys was offering me

work. Now most of them are out of business. Last year I had one local outfit trying to get

me to work for him saying he once had a guy average $60 per game (he paid on

commission)...and he always scheduled 2 games per day. It's a saturated market and the

customer base is Wal-Mart minded, price first. There seem to be niche markets for quality

work and unique products, but if you're not finding markets for your work and are not

interested in producing what the customer wants to buy, well, maybe it's time to fold the

biz. - B

John- No one has said that the photos taken by Moms & Dads are not good, thats the whole problem, a lot more of them are getting better and better because of digital...

 

"Why do you feel that way?"

 

A pro photographer "should" be better, we are trained to do this, we do it day in and day out, if we cannot find a way to make ourselves stand out then we shouldnt be doing it.

 

"Are their equipment inferior to yours?"

 

I would hope so, I am lugging around $15000k in one hand, not to mention whats in my bag, yes every now and then I see someone in the crowd with pro gear, and I usually have a chat to them when I get a chance, not to tell them that they cant shoot here but more because I like to talk to other photogs. I had one guy who had the identical setup to me, he asked me how do I get shots like I do, because he couldn't, so I gave him advice. I see him every now and then still shooting, and he comes and shows me when he thinks he has a real winner. By the way, he has bought photos every time I have seen him.

 

"Do you think you have a "right" to sell your photos and that the parents are somehow infringing on your rights?"

 

In some cases yes, at these types of events we have usually have a contract with the club or league and a fee is often paid to access the event, some events we can request that no one has a camera or at least cant use flash (gymnastics), most we can't.

 

At the end of the day what makes a pro stand out from most good amatuers is quality and QUANTITY of output, yes dad standing on the sideline focussing on his Son can get that absolute cracker of a shot, but can he get 500 shots in a game, with every kid, and at least 80% of shots being sharp and at the peak of action, I would say doubtful. I recently gave a new photographer a try, he had been shooting for years and had a very nice portfolio. He came up to me at the end of the game, he had taken 200 shots, 5 of them would be what I would call saleable, he said this is a lot harder then I thought it would be.

 

Michael Brown

You guys are severely underestimating the volunteers/parents who photograph at games.

 

+ They do value quality products. They probably don't see a noticeable difference in quality between what you produce and what they produce. You're also assuming that the measure of quality is purely technical - in focus, nice exposure, etc...

 

+ They are not price minded. You're assuming that parents take photos of only their sons and daughters. Volunteer parents invest an enormous amount of time and their own money into covering their teams.

 

+ They are not total newbies who happen to have expensive equipment - newbies don't volunteer to photograph. "Trained to do this"? What does this mean? Is there a sports photography basic training camp you guys went to? That you photographed more events than they did/do? Some of us could just as easily have taken the career paths you guys took, but instead chose a different paths.

 

I'd love to have someone come up to me during a game and try to tell me not to photograph. What a laugh.

John, based on your responses I'm guessing that you or someone close to you is a parent

volnteer photographer. It is wonderfuly rewarding to provide pictures to people in your

life who thank you and praise your work. No one here is disputing that and no one here is

telling you not to do it. No one is disputing that some hobbyists who shoot a few days a

month may indeed produce excellent results. The difference, of course, is consistency.

Working pros produce consistent results in any situation, day-in day-out for their entire

careers. A few of your statements, though are simply incorrect:

 

"+ They do value quality products. They probably don't see a noticeable difference in

quality between what you produce and what they produce. You're also assuming that the

measure of quality is purely technical - in focus, nice exposure, etc..."

Two things here:

1. True, most non-photographers do not appreciate the rarity of an excellent image and

are likely to classify one as a serendipity. Still, it's amazing how often some particular

shooters get lucky.

2. Just the opposite with regard to technical quality. Sports photos - most photos,

actually - succeed with a strong moment, and that is what's missing in most non-pro

images. Recognizing, anticipating and capturing moments takes experience. Most folks

who shoot a few days a month aren't able to build that experience and that's reflected in

their photos.

 

 

"+ They are not price minded. You're assuming that parents take photos of only their sons

and daughters. Volunteer parents invest an enormous amount of time and their own

money into covering their teams."

 

Volunteer photogs aren't the market pro shooters target...all the other parents are the

market. If the volunteers give product away, the market gets saturated and sales drop,

simple supply and demand. The product supplied by volunteers, for free, satisfies

demand. The amount the volunteer invests in time or equipment is irrelevant. What is

relevant is the supply and price of product provided by the volunteer.

 

"+ They are not total newbies who happen to have expensive equipment - newbies don't

volunteer to photograph. "Trained to do this"? What does this mean? Is there a sports

photography basic training camp you guys went to? That you photographed more events

than they did/do? Some of us could just as easily have taken the career paths you guys

took, but instead chose a different paths."

 

In fact there are sports photography training camps. They are called workshops. Working

photogs attend workshops regularly to stay in touch with others in the community, learn

new techniques and re-energize their creative batteries. As I said before, photographing

more events builds experience, which improves the quality of one's images. John, you

may be a very talented photographer, but you will be out-shot 99% of the time by a more

experienced one. I was on an assignment once with my mentor, a 20+ year veteran of

Time and US News. I shot 100's of frames on my DSLR. He made a few with his 'blad. I

saw him make a frame and walked over to his shoulder to see what he saw. That one

frame was better aesthetically and said more about the event than the sum of all of mine.

Just the way this photography thing works.

-B

Thanks Brad, I couldn't have responded any better.

 

I had a conversation with the president of a club that we attended over the weekend, we shot his tournaments up until last season, until they got a volunteer parent to shoot last years tournament. His previous photos were very nice, there was no disputing that. But they rang and asked us to come back this year...why?? Because the volunteer could not handle the volume that we output, he had hundreds of disgruntled parents angry that they could not get photos of their child at last years event because the volunteer missed them, or the shots were soft or they only had their backs. I went through the photos that they took, and out of about 800 shots their was about 200 that parents (not me) would find acceptable. Thats 25%, we have to hit 80%.

 

Now let me put that into real terms for you. He took 800 photos, over 24 games!!! His equipment was just not up the sheer output that we do, and neither was his workflow. Also, he was doing it on his own, we have 4 shooters running at an event that size, which the boss has to pay whether he sells a photo or not.

 

Most of us have been doing this for a long time, and have been through the trials and tribulations of doing event photography, we have invested tens of thousands of dollars setting up the systems that are required.

 

Training? Well of course like most trades, a lot of us have had to do some sort of traineeship/internship, we dont just go out and start taking photos of sports events/weddings, or anything else we might shoot.

 

John, in all of the time I have been shooting at events, sports or anything like that, I have not once told someone they cannot take photos. I welcome them, talk to them. Photographers, both amatuer & pro are my main friend groups. Why would i attack someone who obviously has the same interests as myself. I had a guy yesterday shooting with a 5D canon out of the crowd, I asked him to come under the fence and shoot with me, to get a better angle. (btw I looked at his shots later that day and asked him if he was interested in a bit of extra work)

 

The only time I have seen someone being asked not to take photos was by the actual event organisers and this was for legal reasons (very young gymnastics girls).

 

Mike Brown

If you think photography has gotten tough, try being a typesetter.

 

This is just what technology does and it doesn't make sense to be angry or even upset about it. It is an opportunity to be more creative, at least on the business side.

 

What I see photographers constantly failing to understand is that most people paid professional photographers to have photographs that could be printed, not produce great works of art. With digital, this is no longer an issue, so the value of the photographer has changed.

 

There are a couple things that can give income in this changing world. One is to shoot events that require access for good photographs. I shoot professional boxing and I shoot on a press pass, which means my shots don't have ropes in front of the fighters since I shoot at ringside. People without passes can't do this. It makes a huge difference, although I do have the problem of bodily fluids. The other thing I do is shoot boxing gym classes, i.e., kids, and I green screen them and put on flame type backgrounds. The parents can't do this, and it makes a huge difference in what they buy. The kids really want the photos, it makes them look like their heros.

 

So instead of complaining, find other ways to make money from it if it is what you want to do.

My problem is not with the business of photography. I do have an issue with you guys trying to prohibit parents from photographing, and the generally condescending attitude you guys have. And few other issues, also, such as:

 

1. I never gave permission to have you photograph my kids. If I see a pro at a game I am covering, I will tell him my son?s number and specifically request that he not be anywhere in the frame, unless he is working for the yearbook or a school publication.

2. Who owns the image of kids you shot without permission of the parents?

3. Related to #2, When you sell your photos, do you make sure that only the parents of the kids in the photo are buying those particular photos? Do you think you have the right to sell it to anyone who pays?

 

Let me comment on some of the points you are raising.

 

Recognizing, anticipating and capturing moments takes experience ? yes it does. Are you saying only you guys have this ability? I?d say that you need to know the sports you?re covering, not necessarily photo techniques.

 

Most folks who shoot a few days a month ? again, you?re making a flawed and overly general assumption here about volunteers. Perhaps the crowd I hang out is more experienced than the general population you run into.

 

Market gets saturated and sales drop, simple supply and demand ? in a saturated market, if your products and services are no longer valued, and you cannot differentiate yourself, then you need to go do something else, instead of whining or trying to prohibit parents from photographing. I really am waiting for someone to trying doing this to me.

 

In fact there are sports photography training camps ? I?m sure there are. So what? Some of us went to these paid workshops.

 

But you will be out-shot 99% of the time by a more experienced one ? Do you know what my photo experience is? Again, get off your high horse.

 

He took 800 photos, over 24 games ?You should pick a better example to make your point. You feel superior to someone who shoots less than a 36-exp roll per game? Good for you. If this is your level set, then you should worry about competition from anyone with a camera. As another data point, I cover my son?s lacrosse games with another parent, and we were pretty much at every game, and each of us shot about 600-700 frames per game. We shoot both digital and film, depending on lighting conditions, as we feel that pushed-film perform better than digital at ISO 1600 or higher.

 

As someone pointed out - technology is getting better and cheaper, and it's going to be tougher and tougher for you guys.

<i>I do have an issue with you guys trying to prohibit parents from photographing</i><p>

 

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone doing that. Can you point out where some of the "guys" said they are doing this?

This has been discussed in this forum before; if you do a search you'll find a very long thread on the topic of preventing other photographers, but in this particular thread, from Michael Brown:

 

In some cases yes, at these types of events we have usually have a contract with the club or league and a fee is often paid to access the event, some events we can request that no one has a camera or at least cant use flash (gymnastics), most we can't.

Michael Brown says something quite clearly the opposite. So where are the "you guys" here that are trying to prevent other people from photographing? "Go look for yourself" doesn't work when you made a big point out of it.

Thanks for the feedback. My intention in bringing up this topic was to ask if others were having a difficult time finding parents that want pictures, as I have. I do not see myself as whining or complaining, as some on this thread have stated. I am just trying to state my own experience. I also have not stated that the parents I know that take pictures are not good at it or that thet do not have the right to take pictures.

 

John, you seem to have been attacked by a photographer at some point. I can't believe how you freak out if you see someone taking a picture of your kid. Who do you think would have any interest in buying a picture of your kid, other than a member of your family. Surely you are not one of those that thinks all your pictures are going to be purchased by pedofiles, are you? You sound like a nightmare to deal with.

 

Thanks again to those with constructive input. John, you need to relax and take a breath.

John,

 

Obviously we have an issue with communication here, all through this thread I have basically been supporting you in that you or anyone else have the right to shoot at most events, it's a free world, good luck to you all. If you choose to give these shots away, great I'm happy for you, thats your choice, obviously you don't have to rely on this as an income like other photographers.

 

Yes I did quote "yes at SOME events" we ask that no-one else shoots, these are specialised shoots like, as I suggested Childrens Gymnastics. This protects the children, as the only people in the event with cameras are us. Let me point out, this was first suggested by the event co-ordinators and the parents of the children themselves, NOT US.

 

I used the 800 shot example because it was the ONLY one I have had with this type of thing, I wasn't trying to make that I was superior at all, I can't even see how you could read that into it. The point I was making was not superiority, but more of experience in event photography, not just the taking of the photo, but the entire process.

 

 

One thing I will point out to you, if you look back at my original reply to the OP, I made a point that he had to do something to make himself stand out, and I put a link to the collages that we do, this is what we do to combat the issue, NOT tell people they cant take photos, nor did I say that our photos were neccesarily any better than some of the Moms & Dads or volunteers. And just so you know, our business is NOT suffering, due to us doing the graphics, in fact we are busier than ever and this is supposed to be our quiet time.

 

John, If you have had a bad experience with a sports or event photographer, take it up with them, I am not going to apologise for someone I don't know or even necessarily agree with.

 

Michael Brown

Jeff,

 

Here is one example:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CzSh&tag=

 

One poster (Gary Wray) is quite proud to actually have other photographers physically removed from the field.

Peter - I am freaking out because I don?t want you to photograph my kids? If you want me to be a nightmare to deal with, I can be. Instead of making personal attacks, you need to concern yourself with how (or whether) you?ll operate in a shrinking market, and how to deal with real issues that parents have, regardless of what you think of those issues. You're making a lot of assumptions here.

 

Michael - If you can coexist with others taking pictures, that's great. My ire is directed toward those who seem to think that the only way to deal with loss of business is through preventing others from photographing (restricting supply), not through better and more creative products, and to those who don't take parents' privacy concerns seriously.

I also take photos at youth football games. I have permission from the league and they endorse me at all the league functions and at the team mom's meetings. I make it a point to communicate with all the team mom's and I only go to the games where the team has requested me to be there. I have no problem with the parents taking pictures as well and even help them when I can. This builds a rapport with the parents and gets me tons of referrals. 90% of the parents will never achieve those professional looking shots, and those that do, if you had anything to do with it, will probably funnel even more work your way. I had one parent who I taught to shoot sports and now she teaches the yearbook class at her high school. She often asks me to come and speak to the class and refers parents as well as student athletes to me for portraits. I am constantly having to network, market myself, advertise, etc. to keep up. I also attend workshops to better my photography and learn techniques that can't be just figured out by an amateur shooter. Try to find other ways to get your name out there...contribute to the newspaper, donate photos for local HS team's website, meet with the athletic booster clubs. DON'T GIVE UP IF YOU REALLY LOVE IT!!!

Sports Photography is a hobby for me. I wanted to jump into some college sports, but the big ones like Basketball and Football are too difficult to gain a press pass to around my way. The programs are too big and popular, so usually Associated Press and newspaper photogs are the only ones getting in. I managed to get into some schools by shooting their gymnastics events. Alot of college gymnastics teams are not the best funded programs, therefore can't afford to pay anyone to shoot the events. Since College Gymnastics is not a widely popular sport, there is very little to no press.

 

What did I do? I took a look at the photos on the websites of some local college gymanastics teams and knew I could do better. Most of the schools allowed me to come in as long as I adhered to the rules (no flash photography is the big one). I did my thing and gave away some photos to some schools. Now, I have one of the colleges offering to hire me this coming season to shoot some of their home meets. Mind you, there were other photogs at these events shooting with me, but my work clearly was much better.

 

What am i getting at...

 

In this day and age, digital photography is the norm and everyone can get into for not a ton of money. To make your work standout, it does take money. For me and gymnastics, it did take spending some money on some good gear, namely fast prime lens. Thats what allowed me to get much better photos than the others shooting there. I have coaches loving my work.

 

Make your work stand out above all others!