Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>If so, how? How has that creativity been manifested in specific works, genres, or movements?</p> <p>My first thoughts were of creative individuals who have suffered from no known social discrimination or other stigma, but then my thoughts went to one of my favorite playwrights, Federico García Lorca, and from there it occurred to me to look at members of groups who have often suffered from exclusion from Anglo-Saxon (or other) society (blacks, Jews, gays, etc.).</p> <p>The question is open-ended. I know nothing about this topic, although I see numerous allusions here and there to a link between suffering and creativity.</p> <p>I have to say, though, that some of my more productive years (in political philosophy, not photography) have been some of my hardest years--and so I would not be averse to hearing some personal testimony from those who can link their own photographic output or progress to their own personal travail.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>It's always been a odd kind of romantic notion that mental illness is somehow responsible for artistic achievement. From Van Gogh cutting off part of his ear, to the suicide of Diane Arbus, to many more too numerous to cite here, it's a great contributor to the stuff of legend. Perhaps it has something to do with the way we look at great artists. Many people are creative, in fact just about all of us are in childhood; the trick is to keep that into adulthood. However, most of us do not posses the talent of Mozart, or Dali, or similar titans of the art world. So we look at the lives of these special and unique individuals to try to find where their talent and inspiration comes from. The "Ah-Ha" moment comes when we find the skeletons in the closet. Since most people are not mentally ill or have gotten treatment previously, it's a easy way to attribute artistic talent to this reason. We all have ups and downs in life, this is unavoidable. In the cases I mentioned above, we can only guess what Van Gogh may have painted if he were of sound mind. We can only guess what photographs Arbus would have gone on to make had she not committed suicide. In a way, one could argue that individuals like these, may have created better work had they been more stable. I agree. I think the more mentally and emotionally healthy a person is, the more they will be able to utilize whatever talent they have to it's fullest potential.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Marc, not all suffering derives from mental illness.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johne37179 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>I always seem to take better shots after setting my hair on fire and putting it out with a hammer.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Adversity (and especially overcoming it) makes one a more interesting person. People who have become more interesting have more interesting things to communicate, in more interesting ways. Photography being communication, you see where this is headed. That said, I find John's experience to be spot on. He's on fire, and really nailed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>True Lannie, but is suffering not a choice then? If I get diagnosed with terminal cancer I can choose to suffer or I can choose to not to. If I choose to suffer, then perhaps there is something wrong with the way I think i.e something irrational about me? Mental illness? Maybe, maybe not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noreen Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Marc, your last post confuses me. Are you suggesting that anyone who is not mentally ill but who suffers does so only by their own choice? If so--especially given your scenario of terminal cancer--you must have a very different definition of "suffer" than the rest of us do.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>I know artists who are also "depressives". When they're in that condition their creative work stops. They are consumed with their seeming "problems". On the other hand, many people who have come through adversity are often spiritually "reborn". This frees up their creativity. With positive feelings of security and happiness, they become willing to be expansive and to try new things. </p> <p> It's not only creativity as an artist but in all activities that people's performances improve when they're spiritually reborn. But I also believe there are some where mental imbalances accentuate both creativity and life problems because of the way their brain is.</p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis_g Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Probably for masochists and people who can't feel anything any other way.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Yep, Luis, people like Michelangelo and Van Gogh. . . .</p> <p>Google search for "suffering and creativity" (lots of links):</p> <p>http://www.google.com/search?q=suffering+and+creativity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a</p> <p>The links do not relate to photography <em>per se</em>, but they are about suffering and creativity in general.</p> <p>There's more:</p> <p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Agony_and_the_Ecstasy_%28novel%29</p> <p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life_%28novel%29</p> <p>Again, however, I can find nothing about photographers in all the above.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis_g Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Lannie, I do not think their suffering made them as artists, although it cannot be separated from their history. It was reflected in their art because they were superb artists. And let's not forget that some of Van Gogh's best work was done when he was happy with, or in anticipation of, Gauguin. What makes these and other artists who encountered great suffering is that they took it and ran with it, that it did not paralyze them as it has so many.</p> <p>The Buddha tells us everything that lives must suffer, but nothing about that making us all great artists.</p> <p>You could answer your own question and get back to us. Maybe buy something like this:</p> <p>http://www.cilice.co.uk/</p> <p>...and get back to us in a few weeks and let us know how the art is coming along.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>I believe it's backwards. Artists suffer because a) society doesn't have room for artists, b) creative pursuits are usually only considered worthwhile if they bring financial gain, and c) there isn't enough financial gain from creative pursuits for almost everyone that does it, they end up living as a pauper.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 <blockquote> <p>creative pursuits are usually only considered worthwhile if they bring financial gain</p> </blockquote> <p>Amen to that, Jeff. The same goes for the humanities in our educational institutions. No one respects them anymore, it seems. The money goes for science and technology, not the liberal arts.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.cilice.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.cilice.co.uk/</a></p> <p>Hah! The old hair shirt! Ah, but Luis, I am not doing penance. Maybe I should, but I am not.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 <blockquote> <p>Light-weight full length waist cilice made by Italian Nuns - $65.00 USD. Price includes shipping.</p> </blockquote> <p>You gotta love it, Luis. Thank you for that one.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis_g Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p><strong>Lannie - "</strong>I am not doing penance. Maybe I should, but I am not."</p> <p>Not about penance, just gratuitous suffering, in order to test your hypothesis. I think the prices are also meant to increase and/or extend the levels of suffering. Of course, it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion. I didn't really think you'd do it, even to improve your creativity or get closer to God (if it worked). :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <blockquote> <p>I believe it's backward. Artists suffer because a) society doesn't have room for artists, b) creative pursuits are usually only considered worthwhile if they bring financial gain, and c) there isn't enough financial gain from creative pursuits for almost everyone that does it, they end up living as a pauper.</p> </blockquote> <p>Artists do make a living from their art. Whether they are carpenters, singers on the circuits, dancers, actors, musicians, or photographers. Maybe not a million bucks, but a living. On the other hand, maybe many self-proclaimed artists are not honest enough about their ability that they think they should be making a million bucks and have international acclaim when really they should have a day job and practice their artistic skills as a hobby like most people in this and other photo sites. It's not the world's fault they can't become famous. Heck I once thought I should be President. But I got over it.</p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>I would recommend some testing of the hypothesis. Take some photos that you think are creative. Then get nailed to a cross for a day or two. They still do this in some very remote areas in Spain, so you can probably do it there. It might be better to do it upside down and get the nails put through your feet so you can hold the camera afterwards. When you get taken down, go out and shoot some photos that you think are creative. Do your own comparison and send them out for peer review. Let us know what the results are.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indraneel Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 <p>Exactly what in the world would drive a perfectly happy person to become an obsessive super-achiever? Suffering enhances creativity... it's that simple. And, I would trade all the creativity in the world for a moment's happiness. On the other hand, while unhappiness might provide a drive (to perform or escape), the nature to escape will simultaneously also block potential creative decisions. Blessed is the one who was once sad and is now happy.</p> <p>There might be at least one example where someone forcibly nailed to a cross has been known to have a remarkably different outlook towards life from that of the ones who nailed him.</p> <p>A question <a href="../casual-conversations-forum/00ZHpV">here</a> which also (self) references my earlier question <a href="../off-topic-forum/00Y6hI">here</a>.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthings Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>some how i think that experience is what drives creativity. suffering, in its many forms, is simply one kind of experience and is probably no more or no less a factor in the creative process than other states of the human condition. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>I'm in line with Christopher. Experience, emotional experience, life experience in general, coupled with artistic technical skills, makes up the basic sources of creativity. Suffering, is one such type of experience, but extreme happiness and self-fulfillment in life is indeed another.<br> Personally, I'm clearly nearer he latter than the first - whether artistic creativity is one of my characteristics or not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johne37179 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>With some photographers you suffer after seeing their photos.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinmaya Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>Probably yes. But I would say 'strong emotions' trigger creativity; Both happiness and sorrow</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movingfinger Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>Everything I need to know in life I learned from the "Rocky and Bullwinkle" cartoon show (so you have some hint as to my age). I believe it was on the "Mr. Know-it-all" segment where Bullwinkle (Mr. Know-it-all) was asked how to become a great artist. I can still hear the response in my mind, "You gotta suffer!" Enough said.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_jones3 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 <p>Some creative friends are bipolar. This seems to be too common among famous artists, too. Perhaps the intense concentration they sometimes exhibit results in work that seems like the product of genius to us who lack that capability.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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