Does Leica need money fast (M8 horror story)

Last summer I took my M8 to greenland. It took some amazing shoots in the first 5 days and I was quit happy. Then

came a day it started to rain. So wisely I decided to put the M8, that was in a side-pocket on the belt of my

backpack, inside the backpack, between dry cloths. When we came back to camp, it proved that some

condensation was present on the camera and the camera was dead. I tried to revive it by drying it in the sun the next

few days, but it remained dead. Luckely I also brought an M6 as back-up, just in case the batteries of the M8 would

have run out. I had to shoot the remaining 2 weeks with the M6. A guy with the 400D and kitlens who was less

carefull with his camera than I was had a smile on his face the rest of the tour

 

As the camera was only 8 months old I returned it to Leica when I came home, expecting waranty as other M8's

survided worse treatment I read on the web. I send it together with a well cared for, always filter mounted 50mm

summy to have it coded.

 

To my ashtonisment Leica came back to me: M8: waterdamage, cost 3340euro, yes your read correctly 3340euro.

My god, that is almost the price of a new one. What will they do, just screw the serial number on another body and

take a big profit??? I had some mail conversation with them, but got only 1 short mail. We see waterdamage (some

pictures attached of 2 components with green corrosion on them), we have no weatherseals, so no waranty. After

that no more responses. Even the importer (transcontinenta) was stunned by a) the price quote and b) the attitude of

Leica in this case.

 

Accoridng to Leica the summy was havily used with severe wear on the glass, over 500 euro's of cost. I had an

expert look at it and he told me that beside some paint wear the summi was in great condition.

 

Fortunaly I was insured and they paid for the camera. But they are so anoyed by Leica that anyone in the

Netherlands now wanting to insure an M8 can not cover it for waterdamage as they are "fed up with the way Leica

expects us to clean up their mess".

 

Now what is going on here. Does Leica need money fast? Over the backs of their existing users? Did the S2

development cost too much? I don't know but it is not what I expected from a reputed company<div></div>

You have passport coverage?

I think passport is a thing of the past.

 

One possible explanation might be that the water damage visable is very small and the circuit board is repairable or replaceable although getting it out to repair might be expensive. They could be concerned with more hidden damage that must be covered by the original quote. They have more than likely seen this before and they know what they are getting into.

 

I must admit the whole thing is a poor design if it can`t take a few drops of water. I will also say you should have dried it before sealing it up. The external moisture evaporates and seaps everywhere as water vapor.

 

I am totally turned off by this machine, its poor design, high cost, and low reliability. I have many Leica film bodies, M, R, and a few screw mounts and none have issues like the M 8.

 

Now they come up with a $15000 MF reflex (body only)that is so outragously priced it it beyond consideration.

All in all, when film is gone to feed the film bodies, that is the end for me and Leica. My Nikon digital collection is nearly complete at thes time.

You couldn't give me a Leica. Well, you could, but I'd sell it. I've had my fill of Leica "quality."

Leica lists a customer service phone number on their website. Did you ever try phoning them? I sure would have.

 

Also, in certain situations if you purchased in a reputable camera store they might handle warranty issues for you.

actually I loved the M8. It is digital rangefinder almost as it should be. Image quality is good, I stunned a pro with 5Ds

with them...

 

However I'm totally turned of by the fact that it went dead after a few drops of condense water and totally put of by the

behaviour of Leica in this case...

 

It is sad a reputed company comes to this low

 

Now I'm looking what to do, rangefinder in part of the way I work so I love it. Nikon failed to make the rumors of a

digital RF true at the kina so I think I have no other option that an M8 again. And I'm pissed of by that...

 

sure will not be a new one, not going to reward Leica for bad behavior...

Sorry to learn of the camera's vulnerability and the 3340 Euro quote for repairs -- that is an awfully steep price.

 

I didn't realize that in the UK -- not where I am, and evidently not where Reinier is either -- there is still a form of all-inclusive "Passport Warranty"

 

http://uk.leica-camera.com/news/news/1/5808.html

 

As I recall, the Passport was not offered with the M8 in the U.S. (I don't have an M8.)

Incidentally, Reinier, assuming I have found your site, I enjoyed a number of shots there. Because of my own

interests, I turned to your street pictures -- after first learning that the word is 'straat' :-) -- and

especially <a href=http://www.reinierdevlaam.nl/creativeWeb/Vrij%20werk/straat/slides/Breda1.html>appreciated

this photograph</a> and several others.<p>

 

I know that does nothing to ease the sting of a 3340 Euro repair charge. Very bad luck on that M8 affair, and

a disappointing company response as well.<p>

 

- Michael

An elecrtonic item that "saw water" often is a TIME/MONEYsink hole for a repair outfit. Folks say that the camera got some rain; often its salt spray. The item has to be taken apart; each board, each trace, each IC cleaned, vacuumed, swabbed. Any trace of salt or crud WILL with time make stuff grow back; the unit then gets flakey and dies later on; the "repair" boomerangs back to you with a mad customer. One can remove a board; or just stick it dangleing in an ultrasonic bath to remove alot of the crud; then when it dries there is more crud growing back. The labor to do this is alot. Often if folks just removed the batteries and dried out the item a unit will work; IF its not salt spray. Typically folks leave the batteries in; trying to power it up when there is still moisture; this makes crap grow; traces/pins get shorted; some IC's get ruined. Customers want their baby electronic item to work like new; the repair chaps have this hokey screwed up mess that requires a complete disasembly and rebuild; with massive labor, and a repair that often will fail again. <BR><BR>In laymans terms a water damaged item is a simple fix; just like a flooded car is; or a camera that was dropped off a skyscraper; or a cellphone that was used a hockey puck; or a car that hit a wall at 15mph. <BR><BR>From a repair standpoint water damaged electronic items often get returned if the repair was not complete. Its radically worse for a modern electonic design where the traces are tight; componets small. Here I have a 1964 Magnavox stereo that when under salt water during Katrina that still works with NO repairs; the caps; resisitors; transistors are about 1/4 to 1/2 inch apart; salt didnt ruin it. With a cell phone, AA battery wall clocks, radios that didnt get flooded; just the that water/salt in the air ruined them; plus it ruined "weatherproof" P&S cameras that were on shelves that didnt flood; just the water vapor ruined stuff.<BR><BR>The <i> almost the price of a new one.</i> has to be for water damage is often a ticking cancer for an electronic item. If they "absorb" the repair for free the money has to come from somewhere; ie higher prices of other items they sell. From a repair persons standpoint dealing with customers on water damaged items is a time sinkhole; they think the repair should cost little; your experience is often you loose your rear fixing the item(s). Like cars many consumer items get "totalled" when the repair costs grow huge; or where the repair will not hold with time. <BR><BR>Maybe if the repair folks took a cut in pay; or benefits; or vacation time the repairs could be done for a lower fee too. OR Leica could "eat" the repair like a welfare handout and spread the cost to all other customers; or water proof cameras could be built and each items cost made a few grand more? If it was MY camera I would take it apart myself if repair cost approached a new unit. This has huge risk; a new camera doesnt have repair docs, one doent know even the "tricks" to get it apart. A failed IC or chip might be not available; or cost as much as a summicron. <BR><BR>The story is not about 'horror" its about the issues faced with alot of other water damaged items; ie massive labor costs where the item's owner thinks the repair should cost 1/10 of actual. Here I get calls from folks who just got their dslr, or P&S "a little wet"; or got "a little sand on it"; or "it just saw a little drop" and are outraged that the other repair folks want XYZ dollars; close to what they paid for the item; and think I can magically fix the item for nothing. Water damage, dropping, sand is considered abuse and not wear and tear of most warrantys; if it is then somehow these repair costs have to be paid for. <BR><BR>Water damage is often not "real small"; it the owners understanding of the problem that is "real small"; thus in simple terms the repairs are easy. The camera repair might work to bring the unit "up/alive"; then one repair chap discovers the sensor has crap on it or has water damage too. This is what happened to a friends Canon dslr that "got repaired" for water/moisture. The "horror" if any is dealing with repair customers; they are rarely happy when their baby item needs repairing; but really needs to be scrapped. Many digital cameras and cellphones are really never repaired when dropped or when they see water damage; the costs are too high. From a repair standpoint the lower end arena is like TV's; you chuck them out. With a higher end camera folks often consider a repair; but are dumfounded why the cost is alot.

That is a horror story. I've just sent my M8 in again for repairs. If I get this sort of b.s. I'll get rid of it. No professional

camera should be this fragile.

Maybe Leica could just fix any M8 within 3 years; for any reason and just bump up the initial price to pay for these costs? Many folks would be happier! :) Or the M8W could be built thats waterproof; that costs twice as much? Or water damaged items could be fixed at a loss;and the welfare costs spread to other company items? or maybe one could sue the weatherman? :) Its nothing new that water damage is abuse; it was like that 50 years ago too.

Sadly, Kelly is right. A electronic product that isn't waterproofed that was exposed to liquid will typically cost as much to repair as it cost to

begin with. Same with computers.

 

Modern electronic devices are built from a handful of expensive components rather than tons of tiny mechanical bits. And liquid seeps in

and gets everywhere and destroys things in moments.

 

Sucks, but that's how it is.

You'd think there'd be at least a bare minimum level of protection - even if splashproofing was not provided. That's a very sad

experience...

Here I am abit paranoid about my Epson RD-1/s getting wet. I have gone thru more cellphones than I want to admit with dumb accidents too; one went into the bathroom sink; another fell out of a pocket while replacing plywood decking on a roof; hitting the concrete slab. With many Olympus D360L 1.3 Megapixel digitals I use to shoot repair photos; many have failures but they still work in klunky way. One wont allow deleteing images; another drains the batteries quickly like bypass cap has leakage ; another has a door/camshell switch flakeyness. The first unit D360L cost 350 bucks new; a MINIMUM repair quote was 120 bucks; the 3 spares via ebay cost less than 80 bucks total; some with several cards.

Yes I would be "ticked" too if my camera was an M8 and required 3340 euros to repair for "a little water damage". Its really an unknown what abuse (shock, vibration, water) a consumer item can take and we only learn after folks like Reinier have had a loss what one repair cost is; of an unknown amount of water that invaded the camera.

Reiner-

Did Leica bill you for the 3340 euros? Or did they send you an estimate?

In USA, we have courts where such matters can be contested.

Even if a major electronic component or two were lost, you wouldn't expect that much cost. Being that it is electronic, you'd think they'd take extra measures to protect its innards. [snide paragraphs about watchmakers, brass hammers, and soldering irons were removed, for the sake of brevity, by the author]

Did Leica bill you for the 3340 euros?

 

I recently took photos of a golf tournament in constant, on/off rain, all day. I was using a D200 which I was constantly wiping down……I was expecting it to go pop any moment…..it didn’t.

 

Real world conditions, no second chances, no excuses….

 

Get your act together Leica.

Being an electronic engineer I will comment that, in my opinion, the entire PCB assembly should be replaced in this instance. There may well be multiple PCB assemblies inside the M8 - I don't know. The cost of the complete, assembled, PCBs will definitely not be more than a few hundred Euro's, probably significantly less. They probably use at least one dedicated chip which may be more expensive. I also cannot believe disassembling the body, replacing the PCBs, reassembling, and functional testing would take longer than a couple of hours. Considering the age of the camera and the reported careful use, this sounds like a very bad scenario. I only own an old, but very nice, Leica III and will acquire an M3 when I can afford to - but that's it. Until Leica return to the real world and offer quality products at a realistic price, backed up by excellent customer service, I will stick with my much cheaper Canon DSLRs which outperform Leica in many aspects, such as cost, reliability, customer service. Nobody can honestly say there is too much wrong with the image quality of a 5D fitted with good L lenses...... In fact I would rather go to war with my 350D than with an M8!

Kelly is the one all wet here, you ought to read the post better. Reinier said he was in Greenland and the camera was not hit by rain but temperature condensation.

 

I must say any electronic device intended to go outside should be designed to handle some temperature variation causing condensation. Thats point one.

 

next, this is an extremely expensive camera made of the same magnesium as Nikon and Canon use with a lot less features, electronics and a smaller and less sophisticated sensor. Leica mechanical cameras could at least say they had better mechanics, this camera has the same electronics in common with other digital camera. Point two.

 

Finally, after paying twice as much than superior digital FF products that are built to actually go outside come back inside and not die from simple condensation I am sure these problems don't don't occur with the Nikon and Canon. Heck for that kind of money one expects the camera would have enough profit margin to fix the repair.

 

Nobody here should be making excuses for Leica, unless you are a Leica toadie, Reinier I agree with you I would get a lawyer and sue them, maybe contact Ralph Nader to find out what to do. Its like a lemon a camera that cannot function outdoors without even getting rained on.

In laymans terms the repair cost of a water damaged item such as a camera; cellphone; car should be little, ie minor.<BR><BR> In like matter the cost Photographers charge for a wedding shoot should be little too; or the cost of calling a plumber?<BR><BR> In lay terms the other chaps job is easy; he is always ripping you off; his time is worthless; materials and tools are free, gold bars arrive in the mailbox each day to support free repairs or lowball ones.<BR><BR> A huge amount of consumer electronic items today are often chucked out when they fail. Some new "save the planet" lead free solders are less robust; they often are harder to deal with in repairs. We get a cleaner planet and more expensive repairs.<BR><BR> The pitch between the legs of an IC is radically smaller; any crap that bridges two pins can cause a fault. Folks are less educated; there is a massive amount complex tiny IC's; a rats nest of flex cables a small amount of water can short out and cause alot of damage when the circuits are still powered up. The voltage accelerates the damage; crap grows from IC pin to pin. Ther can be a trace/whiff of crud that tracks between traces and acts to rebias a circuit. A unit "fixed unit" that passes all tests can fail in a week; month, year. you get the darn unit back again; the customer wants another free repair. A water damaged item is often a time bomb with another failure around the corner. One spends all this time with a stereo microscope looking at all, the possible bridges growing on traces; pins; IC legs brushing them off'; attempting the fix. Most of the time is far cheaper to swap out an entire board if the device is designed to be repaired; rather than fart around replacing an IC thats a pinhead in size. One pulls off the IC and finds not only is the IC bad; but there is more crap ie bridging on traces running under the IC. If one has connectors for the board; this adds cost; less reliability and a further area where water can cause corrision.<BR><BR> In lay terms repairs are easy; free; the repair chap has infinite time; no other camera to fix; no family,zero wages; free parts, free healthcare, things are easy to take apart; the water damage "repair" is easy and confined ; the water ruins just one part; it takes only minutes; the entire repair is pure profit; like what msot photographers make! :) <BR><BR>Whats the actual actual basis of "feeling the repair should cost alot"?

Yes. Obviously Leica needs money fast. Your repair alone will keep them functional for at least 2-3 minutes. Didn't you post this whole thing on another website...? Are you just making the rounds so you can whine in as many different places as possible? How about taking out the battery next time if you put it away wet. You know, the really funny thing about this, is I've used my M8 IN THE RAIN, and have never had a problem with it....

the really funny thing about this, is I've used my M8 IN THE RAIN, and have never had a problem with it....

 

Steve, it is not weather sealed in any way. Not good advice for someone who has just dropped an arm and leg on a

cam.

 

Not a statement Leica would be very happy with either. Second thoughts, maybe not, when you can charge a small

fortune for the repair.

Harvey the post says <i> Then came a day it started to rain. So wisely I decided to put the M8, that was in a side-pocket on the belt of my backpack, inside the backpack, between dry cloths. When we came back to camp, it proved that some condensation was present on the camera and the camera was dead.</i><BR><BR>All the repair place knows is there is water damage; ie the camera insides got all wet; not me. One really doesnt know if the camera got rained on; or if the backpack was waterproof; or if the camera got chilled to the outside air; or what the air temp was. There has to be more than a little "Simple condensation" to ruin most electrical items.<BR><BR> An 1950's and 1960's method was to place the camera next to ones body/under a coat so it stays warm; so water doesnt condense in a lens or camera. Most Digital cameras are sold to NOT be used in the rain. A failure from just condensation sounds abit of a stretch.<BR><BR> So if Leica gets sued because this M8 got water damage whats the spec for how many drops; cc's, liters of water its warranted for?<BR><BR> How about folks removing the battery from a damp or sprinked unit before attempting to turn it on? Thats what the National Camera folks courses taught in the 1960's. Greenland is darn dry compared to say New Orleans; its colder too. The dry bulb versus wet bulbs temp is often just a degree or two on a Summer day in New Orleans, condensation can occur by just carrying your camera outside. Greenland has a super low humidity; the wet and dry bulb temps are radically way apart in temperature. If the camera was allowed to reach the colder outside air the condensation probably occured after the camera was in a warmer inside room; ie a building; since the camera was below the dewpoin of the inside air. A 1950's camera book will mention to allow time for a radical the change to avoid condensation in a lens or camera body; the body kept wrapped until its warm. <BR><BR><BR><BR>If there is/was a problem with condensation with M8's in Greenland where are the complaints from folks in moist Singapore; Bangkok, New Orleans?

And I will put this story everywhere I can, not to whine, but so as much others can learn from my great expirience...

 

I'm an electronic engineer too, I know what IC's these days looks like and I also know it is pretty easy and cheap to protect them agains basic moisture. No not water, but certainly condensation. A 4K camera, instended for outdoor use, should be able to withstand this. As said, tourmenbers treated there much cheaper camera's far worse. One even took a dip, when falling over in a stream we were crossing. No problem at all.

 

I was a Leica fan. I loved there camera's, owned R4, R7, M6 and M8. Even the M8 is a great camera in its way. I'm even considering getting a used one to replace the M8, simply because I love to use RFs. But if there was an alternative, I'd be out this second after this expirience.

 

I kno leicophilias will protect there brand until death follows. I used to be one, though a critical one, but now I'm cured forever.

 

My insurance paid up, to give you an indication: they questioned me a lot and there conclusion was, you did nothing wrong, this should have been waranty, and we will kick the M8 out of our insurances (se above). So that is the response of real-world people ;-) to this case

 

and btw I have witnesses on how I treated the camera, I'm no winer about my loss, this is a true case. No salt water, no heavy rain. No when the first drops came I put it in the backpack between dry cloths to protect it. This is pure condensation water and should not have been a problem. It will happen here in holland as well so I would love keeping and M8 but would I ever trust it again...??