# Does anyone actually believe this dribble? ADDENDUM.

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by diwan_bhathal, Feb 21, 2006.

1. ### diwan_bhathal

After reading the last istallment of this post, I stumbled upon more
of same. I must be living in a surrealist world without noticing it
unitl now.

Can anyone make some sense of this;

"instead of calculating formulas by the usual standard of near
medium and far distance we have discovered that a fourth variable
applies to the equation resulting in a considerable gain in
accuracy."

(... from a source known to all)

We have a genius here, he knows how to CALCULATE FORMULAS !!! And I
thought all along that one calculates results only. Formulas are
the algorithm and procedure for achieving quantitative results as
far as I know.

And this genius can also solve four-variable equations
(formulas)!!! Again, as far as I know, it is impossible to
calculate a four variable equation without introducing an external
assumption as to boundary conditions governing this equation. Case
in point: St. Venant's principle, the principle of Energy balance
and others of the sort...

A four variable equation is termed as "non-determinate", therefore
the use of this assumption. To attempt to solve this situation, an
assumtion is used, the results become quite inaccurate because of
the above. Boundary conditions and assumptions are in reality not
isotropic and may not cover the range for which the variables of the
equation are calculated.

-- Resulting in a considerable gain in accuracy.

This should be a patented Mathematical technique!

"near, medium and far distance" and "fourth variable applies";

In reality, near, medium and far distance apply only to the same
identical plane, defined by two variables, x and y. What is then
the "fourth variable", a new dimension?

If this fourth variable, (which is not a fourth, but a third,
therefore nullifiying the case for quadrangulation), should be the z
variable, belonging to a plane perpendicular to the other two
variables. We have now three independent variables that define a
plane of reference to which regular geometry can be applied.

In brief, two points define a line. A line and an additional point
define a plane. Trigonometry can be then used. It happens that the
science of Trigonometry is a closed science, meaning that all
aspects of this science are already known.

But, in case that there is any doubt, another solution is possible
for this "fourth variable", it is the fourth dimension. Equations
can be stated as well in this fourth dimension. The state variables
then become x,y,z and A.

This A is used commonly in Electromagnetics as to calculate the
Voltage Potential in an E-H field. The result is a four-vector with
produced by this Voltage Potential A to parallel the effects of
conservative fields at a point location. This leads to one to think
about the possibility of a totally new property called: optical
potential, as in electrical potential!

Which leads me to conclude that the writer of the quote is living in
the FOURTH DIMENSION !!!!!!!

And last but not least, this quote is to the point, the very point.

"THE L45s NEW YORKER
a design prototype for one of our MOMA submissions( museum of
modern art)
A tribute to the --- RED ---apple ,the city of dreams where the L45s
was able to reach the zenith, the focusing wheels in the L45s
represent the elevator wheels which made it possible for New york to
become the greatest city in the world and ----SORE --- to new
heights, they also represent the gear which is an universal symbol
for synergy and the concept being the L45s technology . this
prototype will be offered on ebay soon as an object D art which will
also be fully operational as an utilitarian tool."

IMHO: You got that right, baby !

Utilitarian object is usually mass produced, for the masses, that it.

Best to all.

?

3. ### pico_digoliardi

"Which leads me to conclude that the writer of the quote is living in the FOURTH DIMENSION !!!!!!! "

?taht htiw gnorw si tahw yltcaxe dnA

4. ### alec|1

Aw shucks, guys - he just forgot to take that little blue pill again. He'll get over it - or it will get over him. Right now, it is winning.

5. ### stephen hazelton

I think the topic is best left along. His quotes don't make a lot of sense, but then again, your response doesn't, either.

6. ### razzledog

I disagree! If everyone wants to see a fourth dimension dweller implode then take a look at this item just listed on your favourite auction site: 7593165849

Supposedly a 100B converted to 4x5 by the genious himself that lacks all the so called refinements of the real thing?
At only \$1000US 'Buy it Now' I`m sorely tempted to own an original by an original. What I cannot understand is the 12 week wait? If indeed this camera exists, or any other member of the GRIS FAMILY then why the 12 week delay? The plot thickens, I won`t sleep tonight tempted by this offer???????

I figure the writing is on the wall, the end is nigh, the goose is cooked. This is history in the making...... WHO will be the first to hit the button and begin the ride of a lifetime?

This stuff is FAR too interesting to pull the pin just yet.

Mathematics and physics gives me a headache. So does this answer to his ad copy. Diwan, you know that now you too will be getting his hate e-mail. Is that worth it? Does his ad copy have anymore bull\$#!+ than the latest car commercial? It's all made to make the buyer feel good.

8. ### diwan_bhathal

Jim, you are definitely correct in your statement. To make the buyer feel good is definitely the intent if one has something to sell, and wants to be successful at doing so.

The point here is that all this gibberish is hampering the true nature of the matter. We are all hobbyists and tinkerers, we ( at least I ) would like to see that the quality in photography is maintained. The only way to achieve that is by use of large negatives, for reasons known to all.

The gibberish and all the inaccuracies in the representation of the equipment hampers and scares the newcomer. If I were in the market for a new portable LF camera, I would feel as if I needed a device done with "calculated formulas", "quadrangulation accuracy" and some other nonsense. This is definitely not good for all, it is nothing more than nonsense.

The reality is that people come up with new ideas and techniques all the time. We are very fortunate to be able to present those in this very forum. What we do not need is for someone to discredit and to attack with mock legalese the technical merits of, let's say, Dean's new back design, or Noah's manufacturing innovations.

This, in my mind, is very deleterious to the advancement of the art, a complete nuisance to all and has severe effects. One can read in previous posts regarding this very same matters, that several readers were scared of the idea of getting into portable large format. One should be truthful and encouraging to those that want to increase their experiences and knowledge.

This pervaded even into the French LF forum. This element was termed as being "parano" and some other attributes which are difficult to translate due to their idiomatic significance. I must say that this is intolerable.

We are dealing here with technology that is not new, that is not special and that is not the propriety of a sole owner. The wording of the patent that refers to this is absolute gibberish, and I believe that it can be revoked with full success.

Having the patent is fine. What is not fine is that someone, has declared himself to be the sole owner of the IP pertaining to these conversions/modifications and new designs. This is not acceptable given that the technology that we are dealing with is at the level of the beginning of last century and therefore not covered by any protection anymore.

If you look closely, the car commercial specialists are careful in describing their product in a technologically accurate way. What they add is the "feel good" part to it, beautiful landscapes, sense of adventure... Some other "hook" to capture the attention of the customer.

What would one think if a car ad would mention things like... afterburner power on demand... selective gear ratios coupled to suspension oscillation... and the likes. One would think that this company is full of certifiable individuals.

What happens if someone comes along with a true innovative design... He will be thought of along the same lines, therefore suppressing his innovation to the use/enjoyment of all.

What this gentleman is doing is not correct, and an end has to be put to it somehow. He is flooding the public knowledge with unsubstantiated attributes that are far from describing his product. The results of this are that it puts a hamper on development, on experimentation and more seriously, on a false description of something that is not.

Car companies can be sued for inaccurate performance specifications of their products and/or malfunctions of equipment that can be traced to bad or unsafe design practices. This has been done before, and instances of this are not common.

It is not correct to present a product or device for all to use in such a way that it detracts from the true nature of what it really is. I hope that this forum is of informative use for new people that are investigating getting into the wonderful world of LF, more specifically into portable equipment for producing large negatives.

In my opinion, if one uses a camera with a calculated formula for synergy quadrangulation, I would avoid it, as it can make one become permanently crosseyed.

Best,

Diwan, You have made all fair and accurate points. My idea of a portable large format is a Crown Graphic. Anyone can buy a very nice one for 1/10 th. the price of a Littman.

If Pop photo and that fashion photographer want to say its the greatest thing since sliced bread so what? The car ads show cars flying in the air, wrecked cities poping up in their wake and Chevy SUV's on top of mountain peaks. Is that any more truthful than the the crap he writes? I think not. The car companies make very untruthful written statments about their horsepower. There's a sucker born every minute. It is all to make, then justify the sale.

Bad for photography? I think that's over stating it. I just believe that he is not worth the extra heartbeats to get excited over.

When he tried to keep other people from buying 110's on e-bay because only he had a "right" to do so, that was so far over the top that forever he would be branded a nutcase. With every word he writes, ad, e-mail or forum threads he re-enforces the public perception.

10. ### van_camper

"And this genius can also solve four-variable equations (formulas)!!! Again, as far as I know, it is impossible to calculate a four variable equation without introducing an external assumption as to boundary conditions governing this equation"

Divan, what is so hard about a 4 variable equation? In my operations research course, I remember and example of a linear programming problem resulting in 81 variables. In the old days without computers it would take a life time for several mathematicians to solve, and hope they never made a mistake. With my old IBM PC back then I was curious, for 81 variables it took 17 minutes to solve doing something like 164,000 calculations/sec. Fun stuff.

11. ### van_camper

In real life today you can have a linear programming problem representing hundreds of variables per equation, and dozens of equations ...and all defining a single problem that must be solved.

12. ### diwan_bhathal

VAN:

Do not take all this too seriously. Of course, a multivariable equation can be solved easily with yesterday's computing power. This needs a little programming and that's it. Now, try to do this in closed form, and it becomes another story, using formulas only and not numbers!

All this is nothing more than a way to expose all the gibberish about quadrangulation, synergy and other types of garbage. This person does not describe accurately what this type of device does and due to this misrepresentation it gives an erroneous impression as to what this really is all about.

Gee ! I pulled out my old slide rule the other day, and I noticed that I could not read the numbers anymore. Still in its leather case, will keep it forever.

Thanks.

13. ### dan_fromm|2

Diwan,

Near vision declines with age. Welcome to the club, and visit your friendly local ophthalmologist. I can still read the numbers on my slide rule, but I wear trifocals.

The LP problems mentioned are tiny. I remember with some affection the largest econometric model I ever built. It had ~ 3600 equations and identities, ~ 12k variables which was as many as our software could handle. Lotta fun.

And to move towards something that bears slightly on photography, when I first simulated that model it expected Kodak and all of north central New York to dry up and blow away. This was in 1982, when every one up there expected a glorious future. Rochester Gas & Electric, in particular, took issue with me. The model didn't know about management, but it saw labor costs that were way out of line.

14. ### diwan_bhathal

Dear Mr. Fromm:

Thank you. Yes, I have bifocals now and it is getting worse. Even looking at the GG with the loupe is not a pleasant experience anymore.

Congratulations, LP calulations are quite entretaining also. One makes the wrong assumption for a variable and whoops!!! There goes the world !

Synergistic quadrangulation in parametric formula representation. ...Go figure. Those that speak like that do not realize how much damage they do to a pleasant thing, to a creative activity and moreover, to the advancement of technique and therefore possibilities.

Now that you know a new French slang word ( parano ), let me teach you another expression: "tar頣omme un malade".

Tar頨as same root as English: tare, as in gross weight and tare, meaning permanent non payload or useful loading on system that is carried on at all times. The rest, you can make out.

Thank you. What is there to do?

15. ### dan_fromm|1

Diwan, since I have no intention of converting a perfectly good Polaroid camera with RF into a half-assed approximation to a 4x5 Crown Graphic, I'm going to watch the silliness and giggle. I'm sorry, but 2x3 is big enough for me.

I regret as much as you that Billy Boy had made life painful for serious people who have good reasons for trying to do what I won't. But from my perspective, its all just another, um, teapot tempest made worse by Billy's bad manners.

If I were you, I'd get on with my life and be happy. If I had to mutilate cameras or try to make photographic apparatus that fit my budget better than anything I could buy, I'd go on doing it and having fun and being happy. I'd try to avoid provoking Billy, and ignore him when I failed. As Noah Schwartz, not to be confused with the person who posts as just plain Noah, has observed, Billy has threatened to sue many times, doesn't seem to have sued yet. If I'm mistaken on that last point, please correct my error.

Thanks for the french lesson. Unfortunately my browser mangled the letter(s) with diacritical marks. Would you please put the words up without accents?

Whatever you do, go on enjoying yourself and taking pictures. I mean, taking the pictures you want is what your camera-building and rebuilding and adapting is about, isn't it?

Best regards,

16. ### van_camper

Diwan,

"Can anyone make some sense of this;

instead of calculating formulas by the usual standard of near medium and far distance we have discovered that a fourth variable applies to the equation resulting in a considerable gain in accuracy."

Apparantly you didn't make sense of it, were agitated, and I answered it. Your welcome.

17. ### diwan_bhathal

Dear Mr. Fromm:

Again, and as always, thank you.

Recap of the ASCII characters that the browser swallowed.

"Tare comme un malade". Meaning, a person carrying lots of useless load of certifiable quality. This refers to the content of the intellect.

Thanks for the encouragement. The point here is not the money, these things are not expensive as compared to other luxuries that people indulge in. The point is to have fun, to share with others and to provide alternatives for needs and potential uses.

I was looking for a 4x5 camera to take with me on travel, of fast setup and good quality. I found that my chopping and glueing obsolete material gave it another life. I also found that I kept on using this one much more often than my monorail, my Graflex and other contraptions. I also thought that others could be interested and my effort will be a basis for their search or just a solution to their queries.

The taking or the making photographs, as it is said, is a pleasure, and you are correct, it should continue to be so. I will assure you that your advise is well taken. Let the belligerents and glorious inepts pursue their destinies, whatever they may be.

VAN:

Regrettably, I just realized that I have forgotten all my matrix algebra. For my life, I could not set up a determinant system anymore. As the eyesight goes, other important things go with it. Photography contributes to the fixing of the memory and to the generation of new ones.

Thank you.