Do I need D800E or D800 ?

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by hoi_kwong, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. It will be highly appreciated if someone can explain to me the difference between D800E and D800 in layman terms. Early this week, I was preparing to order a D800E from a local dealer, hoping that 10% over D800 may cover more area in terms of picture quality and functions ( I get what I pay ?). However, I was hestitated when the store clerk told me that I need special software in post-production (I'm using PH CS5 and Lightroom 3) if picture taken by D800E. Otherwise, it's a waste to pay that 10%. Is it true ?
    My next concern is that Nikon launches D800 and D800E for 10% price diffference ( and confuses me :( ) must for a reaon but I don't know. I shoot event, landscapte, portriate (indoor and outdoor), wedding picture as hobby. Do I need D800E or D800 ?
     
  2. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

  3. Yes, I read it last night but still don't figure out why the store clerk suggested me to go for D800. Does D800E MUST need special software in post-prdocution ?
     
  4. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Does D800E MUST need special software in post-prdocution ?​
    No.
    The D800E is not available yet, so nobody outside of Nikon has experience with production units. When that is available, if photo.net can get a test unit, I very much would like to test it, but that is not under my control.
    In any case, if you are not sure, I would highly recommend getting the vanilla D800. At this point, it is not entirely clear to me what the benefits and drawbacks are exactly with the D800E. In case you are stuck with moire issues, it can be very painful.
    The regular D800 is IMO a much safer choice.
     
  5. What to the people who buy your images want? Do you mostly work in a studio shooting product shots, or are you mainly a wedding/portrait photographer? How large are the prints your customers usually buy? I think that's where to start.
    Kent in SD
     
  6. Kent, with all due respect, why don't we start with what the difference between the cameras is? Frankly, it's about as clear as mud. So, how would anyone's customers have anything to offer to clear that up?
     
  7. Here is part of the description from BHPhoto, maybe this might help a little.
    To achieve maximum sharpness in NEF files, the special low-pass filter in the D800E is not configured with anti-aliasing properties. While this may incur an increase in moire patterns in some images, this presents less of a post-production concern when working exclusively with NEF raw files.
    Images captured in JPEG formats that are affected by moire could become more difficult to work with during the post-production process. Additionally - Nikon's Capture NX 2 photo editing software has an integral moire correction filter, and a new adaptation for that filter that's designed especially for the D800E, is due to be released soon.
     
  8. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    The thread from a few days ago that I linked to earlier has as much info (including further links) as we can find. Until we can get an actual D800E in our hands and hopefully can do some A/B testing, at least there is not a whole lot I can add.
     
  9. I don't shoot photo to make my living, just for fun. I will order the D800 to avoid more post-production works.
     
  10. If the OP is shooting portraits, weddings, and events I would probably strongly recommend against the D800e.
    Moire can be frequent when shooting fine fabrics. Even if some of the artifacts can be corrected with software what I read if that it's quite a task to correct all of it if it's possible even at all.
    Secondly a remark I read today on another site hit the mail for me: correcting moire effect may be possible yet time consuming on a single image, but is an impossible task on a video.
    If Nikon only forecasts a 10% production of the 'e' version compared to the whole D800 cycle it probably means that this camera is aimed at a niche market.
     
  11. I was going to say, shooting in houses of worship with small tile work in myriad patterns, and the clothes of people at weddings, it seems to me the extra sharpness would be of small comfort with the moire issues frequently presented. And extra sharpness, well... I just saw somewhere someone posted a long distance landscape shot of a cemetery, taken from above on a hill, it seemed, and blew up a tiny section in the very rear of the photo, and you could read the headstones, clear as if you were standing there. From what looked like several hundred yards or more. So how much more sharpness do you need? I would bet the 800E is going to be big among people who do very creative type micro photography. They work in NEF, do a lot of post, and can always use extra sharpness.
     
  12. I will order the D800 to avoid more post-production works.​
    A contradiction in itself. More detail = more visible flaws. Have fun in post-production, then!
    Just my two.
     
  13. Hoi, I`d wait to see how this models work and compare in real life. Prices will settle, too. If you already have a camera, just work with it a few months more.
    Right now, nobody could tell how good is the D800E. For a "one camera setup" the D800E seem too risky to me; I find it to be a very interesting choice, but only if it could be used for "almost" everything... if not, you`ll probably need a different second camera.
    A more secure choice is to directly buy the "plain" D800. Taking this way there is less chance of being wrong. Just a thought.
     
  14. Is there such a thing as a screw mount anti-aliasing filter that can be mounted in front of the lens for times when it's properties are needed?
     
  15. Is there such a thing as a screw mount anti-aliasing filter that can be mounted in front of the lens for times when it's properties are needed?​
    no.
     
  16. If you are an amautuer, the D800 will be a better bet. And as pointed out above, it seems more likely the amount of post processing will increase, along with file sizes.
    Dan-
    What photo gear you need has everything to do with what kind of images you make and what you are doing with them. You match the gear to the images.
    Kent in SD
     
  17. If you don't meet the criteria set forth on the Nikon site as a good candidate for the D800e, it is probably advisable to avoid it - you would be better off investing in better image processing software.
    There are numerous software programs that can effectively correct lens sharpness issues that I believe will bring IQ from the D800 to or almost to the quality of the D800e without the worry of moire patters or false color.
     
  18. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    If you don't meet the criteria set forth on the Nikon site as a good candidate for the D800e, it is probably advisable to avoid it​
    I believe the OP meets the very simple criterion for a good customer for the D800E:
    • He has $3300.
    :)
     
  19. I believe the OP meets the very simple criterion for a good customer for the D800E:
    • He has $3300.
    Snort :)
     
  20. You should ask Shun to explain you why he will buy the D800E and compare those reasons with your picture style.
    On the software front, I think you shouldn't worry about because it seems Nikon will include a copy of Capture NX2 in the camera package and this should be the program the guy at the shop was talking about.
     
  21. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I should make it clear that I am leaning towards a D800E, but I haven't even used the D800 all that much. After a couple of weeks with the D800, I may have a different opinion. And if I get to test a D800E also, my conclusion could be very different.
    In my case, any D800/D800E is not going to be my only camera. I have openly said that something like a D4, perhaps smaller with a D800-like camera body, would fit me much better. If the D4 weren't $6K, I probably would buy a D4.
    Since I do evaluate lenses, I think the extra resolution from the D800E would be even more challenging to lenses. That is partly why I am more interested in the D800E, and I will have other cameras when moire is a concern. So my situation is kind of unique. Again, for most people, the D800 should be a much safer choice.
    Another issue we should consider is resale. In the future, the more general-purpose D800 should not be difficult to sell. The D800E could either become a niche camera that is in high demand or its drawbacks will make it less desirable. It is way too early (at least for me) to tell at this point.
     
  22. I agree with Shun concerning resale and the fact that the D800 is probably the best fit if it is your only camera body. I also have a D800E ordered and plan to use it only with landscape and travel. Based on what I have read about moire issues I would not get it anywhere near a wedding shoot, but that is just me. Based on what I have seen out of the D800, I don't think I will be having any complaints about images other than those created by the photographer.
     
  23. Really don't understand why the D800E is necessary when the D800 is plenty sharp. Why is additional sharpness (if any) so important? For what, really? "Sharper than sharp" will look unnatural. The way it is now, the camera and lens already see better than the human eye.
     
    • Is there such a thing as a screw mount anti-aliasing filter that can be mounted in front of the lens for times when it's properties are needed?
    no.​
    Actually there are some like this link but I have never used it.
    http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm
     
  24. "The way it is now, the camera and lens already see better than the human eye."​
    Really? I wear glasses, and can easily see more detail in some subjects directly with my eyes than is easily captured by a 12 Mp camera with a good-quality "standard" 50mm lens fitted.
    As Shun says, it's pretty pointless surmising about the difference (if any) in resolution between the D800 and D800E until someone actually gets their hands on production samples of both cameras together. I strongly suspect that the limiting factor in most cases is going to be the quality of lens used and the photographer's technique, and very little to do with the AA filter or lack of one.
    The theoretical resolution of the D800/E sensor will be over 100 cycles/mm, orthogonal to the frame. Does anyone realise how good a lens and your technique has to be to achieve that kind of resolution over anything but a very small central section of the frame? Better start saving for that super-glass and Gitzo's heftiest tripod in addition to the cost of the camera body. And forget about using lenses at their maximum aperture, or at anything below f/11. Which basically means you have a range of about 3 stops where the lens resolution will be good enough to make it matter at all whether you're using a D800 or D800E.
     
  25. I was hestitated when the store clerk told me that I need special software in post-production (I'm using PH CS5 and Lightroom 3) if picture taken by D800E.​
    You will need to upgrade from LR3 to LR4 to get the ability to use D800 files. LR4 has the "special software" you need, a "moire reduction algorithm". The problem with that kind of software is that it don't always work. There's a reason they call "aliasing" aliasing, it's because it makes something in the image look like something else, an "alias" or a "disguise", as it were. Sometimes, it's a good disguise: a human photographer can look at the image and see something's wrong, but a computer can't look at the image, figure out what a human would see, and fix it.
    I've shot enough no-AA filter cameras to have some insight.
    • Pretty much anything you shoot handheld under available light will not have moire, because camera shake provides enough blur to get rid of it. All an "anti-aliasing" filter does is add "just enough" blur to kill the moire.
    • Pretty much anything you shoot in a studio at your "customary" deep DOF apertures, like f11 on a FF DSLR, or f16-f22 on medium format, will not have moire, because the lnes produces enough blur due to diffraction to kill the moire.
    • Pretty much anything you shoot at an artsy-fartsy shallow DOF aperture like f1.4 or 2.0 on a FF, or 2.8 on a medium format camera, will not have moire, because the plane of focus is so shallow that only a small amount of the "moire causing" patterns like hair or clothing will actually be in focus.
    • The way to get a lot of moire is to be on a solid tripod and shoot at just the wrong aperture. Shoot people at f5.6, and here comes the moire.
    Oh, and based on my experience with technical photography, camera design, lens design, and image software design, I can tell you that moire happens as much from magic, karma, and the capricious will of the universe as it does from conditions you can control. If there's one picture in a shoot of 200 that stands out as the best, that one will have moire, and it will be the sort of moire that the automatic moire reduction software can't find, and you will have to photoshop that hair for 2 hours to get the picture right. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
    Is there such a thing as a screw mount anti-aliasing filter that can be mounted in front of the lens for times when it's properties are needed?​
    Yes, there is. But such filters are expensive, and very hard to use. Because they're on the object side of the lens, their action depends on focal length: a filter that is correct for a 50mm lens will blur an image horribly if you're using a 200mm, and have no moire reducing effect if you're using a 20mm lens. You typically see them used for digital cinematography, where cost is often not an issue, zooming is a rarity, and shoots are very, very planned.
    Can I have Pete Hamm's "hero" badge?
     
  26. << Really? I wear glasses, and can easily see more detail in some subjects directly with my eyes than is easily captured by a 12 Mp camera with a good-quality "standard" 50mm lens fitted. >>
    Glad you mentioned 50mm lens, and I bet for nearby subjects? If it's 50mm aimed at a faraway landscape (not to mention using tele lenses) - unless one is extraordinarily far-sighted (LOL) - the human eye would be no match to a good camera-eye.
     
  27. Can I have Pete Hamm's "hero" badge?​
    why not? that was a great post.
     
  28. No need of it. If so, he should have a "Joseph Wisniewski`s" badge after his name... superfluous, I guess. :)
    00aCnf-453997684.jpg
     
  29. Hmmmm... ... ... for those who could take it in the wrong way, I`m just kidding, obviously.
    And with all my respect and appreciation to Mr. Wisniewski, of whom I`m an avid reader since the first day.
     

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