Digital Negatives?

For those that don't give your clients high-resolution image files (a.k.a.

digital negatives) what do you tell your prospective clients about this. What

reason do you tell them for not providing them? I am curious because I

currently include them in all but my lowest package (my typical package is

about $3k) but am considering (just considering) dropping them from all but my

most expensive package. I know I'll need a good answer when the question

comes up. Also, if you don't include them in your packages, do you offer them

as an A La Carte option? Thanks!

Traditionally the negatives were never given, even now most photographers sell the digital negatives or 'give them away' only in the higher packages as you do. I don't think you have to justify something that is not the norm except in the bottom end of the market...

Hi Ben,<p>

Is that the answer that you give your prospective clients?<p>

I actually think that most of the general public (not photographers) don't have any clue how it was done "traditionally" nor do they care. They only see that there are many photographers (including a lot of high-end photographers) giving digital negatives. I don't see it as being related to the "bottom end of the market" at all... at least not in the U.S... but we're strange that way.

Digital negatives aside, are you in business of selling printing rights or relying on reprints? Then price accordingly. You might be better off selling the rights to reprint, depending on your target market. ('Take the money and run' vs 'Sit on the corner waiting for them to give you some money in a couple of years')

> What reason do you tell them for not providing them? <

 

None, it is irrelevant.

 

We offer an high quality photographic service based upon experience, technical and theoretical expertise and skill to ensure the client has, after the cessation of an extremely important day, high quality, sensitive and artistic, archival photographic images that will remain and will rekindle the experiences of that special day for years to come and bring joy to the Bride and Groom and Their Family and Friends, lifetimes over.

 

We do not provide reasons for why we do not do aerial or underwater photography either, or why we do not provide a leg of ham as a lucky door prize.

 

If, however, someone were to ask directly, `Can I buy the negatives from you, or why do you not offer the negatives for sale` I would reply:

 

It is a quality and service issue, and we assume that you, having contracted our studio to capture this very important day, want to be assured of the quality highest. We guarantee both that quality and the service. To deliver on that promise we can not allow, as you would understand, quality control of the final image by which we are judged, and you the client must live with, to be out of our control. Certainly you really could not imagine B�sendorfer or Steinway giving their blueprints to the Carpenter down the road to knock up an eighty eight? `

 

It is important to know what business one is in, our business is not just taking photographs, however that does not negate or decry other businesses, which are different from ours.

 

It seems that the business profile change you are considering is radical: as such, you, IMO are working from a point of disadvantage having encouraged this option as part of your sales offer previously. Therefore, whilst the information above answers your question literally, it may serve less practical purpose.

 

To that end, you might bite the bullet and consider a complete business profile overhaul: if you choose this option, you should consider taking a few month and plan out exactly what business you want to be in and execute that from the start. One can often make adjustments to the business model, but the core substantially remains the same for the life of the business, and IMO this element you wish to change is a core function by definition as it already separates and defines many photographers in the Wedding and Portrait Profession.

 

WW

Why would YOU not provide them? To make more money on reprints? To maintain quality

control? To influence people to book a higher package?

 

If you can identify your purpose for a policy, then you should also be able to identify the way

in which this benefits your client.

 

There are always several reasons for any policy, but the primary foundation for good

business is always a policy that benefits both the photographer AND the client. It helps to

have a grasp on the purpose behind your policy.

> Why would YOU not provide them? . . . If you can identify your purpose for a policy, then you should also be able to identify the way in which this benefits your client. <

 

Excellent, excellent point and succinctly articulated.

 

Best answer.

 

Just do what Anne said.

 

WW

The other issue though, as Sara pints out, is the competition in many places is giving them away. How do you compete with that? You can tell them, like William does, that you need to keep them to guarantee quality, but the average client probably isn't all that persuaded when someone down the street, who seems to offer the same quality, gives up the files and the right to print. To some clients this matters not at all, since all they want is a great album. But others are looking at wedding photography as a long term investment, and they want what they perceive as control over their future.

 

In my location including the files (high rez JPGs) is becoming increasingly common, and unless you have a firmly established business with a great reputation with more clients than you can use, you are severely limiting your customer base by not including them.

 

I just don't think one answer is going to work for everyone. The market is changing. Some of us have to adapt now.

> The other issue though, as Sara points out, is the competition in many places is giving them away. How do you compete with that? You can tell them, like William does, that you need to keep them to guarantee quality.

 

I expand on this point below, out of respect for the Gentleman that brought it up, and whilst I run the risk of serious flack, (already previously received on other threads) please note, in my first post on this thread I was demonstrative in articulating that my way is, our way, and that does not demean other ways of doing business.

 

The studio I (returned to) manage for the next two years, is undergoing many changes, and it has a 30+ year history of quality and service. This is a base with perhaps a PERCEIVED security, from which I can speak. But we seriously understand and consider these issues and we are not immune to this type of competition.

 

> but the average client probably isn't all that persuaded when someone down the street, who seems to offer the same quality, gives up the files and the right to print. <

 

The initial sales meeting is very important. I do take issue with this comment, if it were a generalization, but whilst the sentence remains carefully structured: ` but the AVERAGE client PROBABLY isn't all that persuaded` then we might explore it.

 

One of the focussed outcomes of that very important initial sales meeting is to ensure that the prospective client realizes and understands that `average` is not suitable for their Wedding, and furthermore not being average entitles them to better than average.

 

We note, from experience, that then, the word `probably`, is a word of great variance. This can be all achieved at the initial sales meeting without making any direct comparison with ` the SOMEONE down the street, who SEEMS to offer the same quality, gives up the files and the right [extra effort and time to ensure an high quality] print.`

 

> But others are looking at wedding photography as a long term investment, and they want what they perceive as control over their future. <

 

Yes, perhaps so, but I think moreover, the high end customer is looking for assurance that the results will be in keeping with the promise of offer: and more importantly if any fuss, effort, time, and money, post Wedding can be eliminated, they will go with that, provided they are confident that one will supply the goods as promised, and will continue to be able to do so, with extreme customer service.

 

 

> In my location including the files (high rez JPGs) is becoming increasingly common, and unless you have a firmly established business with a great reputation with more clients than you can use, you are severely limiting your customer base by not including them. <

 

Yes, in our location also. But the logic is non sequitur: such facts do not prohibit a business predicated on high quality end print results and extreme service being started or being successful.

 

However there are many businesses, each year, who start up as a Wedding Photography business, often from home, still with then principal working their day job. It is many of these businesses who offer such a product. Some last a few years, others do not.

 

Some established studios also offer the negatives or digital files for sale. We note that most of these businesses employ casual photographers, who in turn are looking to establish their own customer base. This type of business too seems to have its life cycle.

 

However, there are some very experienced, creative, and quality operators setting up exactly this type of business, and charging for it, as well they should: high quality professional work, digital Hi Res DVD delivered within 24 hrs thank you very much, never see you again.

 

Often in business we are too quick to isolate one factor alone and then make decisions based upon that factor only. It is not a simple formula, and far too complex to discuss in writing longer and more verbose responses than this, which is probably detailed enough?

 

Suffice it to say that thus far, many customers who are to spend serious money on a Wedding coverage are still very discerning when it comes to quality, security, privacy and ultimate personal service from beginning to end: there is (as a generalization) a substantial quality (and experience) difference between those selling only their time and GIVING AWAY digital images and those offering a fuller, and more extensive photographic service.

 

 

There is a school of thought that has a bit in each camp, offering high quality, a print / album sale and digital Hi Res after that point. The problem here still is quality of the prints and ultimately the customer`s satisfaction and the business`s reputation, note which still sells prints and albums of an high quality but leave digital files to be printed without their aegis. This seems betwixt and between, and IMO the worst position for any Professional Photographer to be in over the next few years.

 

In regard to the comment of limiting the customer base, by not changing the business profile to conform to the changing market: If this could be quantified our perception is that is an overplayed issue, certainly it is from analysis we have. Whilst it might be the major reason studios like ours, do not get as many INITIAL INQUIRIES as we did four years ago, we are still signing as many customers +17% YTD.

 

And also, theoretically, there is other way to look at the pie and this argument: it is the inverse of the manner you describe.

 

Let us take 100 photographers with various abilities and various offers of sale, and ensure that one photographer only follows the whole process through offering `full service`, capture to printing and never supplies customers negatives or high resolution digital images BUT we ensure that this one photographer, in the sample group, is highly competent, a good artist and has extreme dedication to detail and customer service.

 

In this model, I want to be that one photographer, because it is he who has the monopoly with all the customers who want that service and quality guaranteed, the other 99 have to fight for the rest of the customers.

 

WW

 

Another way would be to include the negatives in every package. You could wait until the album is finished to deliver them.

At that point, you've already had plenty of time to push additional print sales and online orders(if you offer it).

 

This way you don't have to say no When your client asks if the negatives are included. Just my opinion.

if you sell the negs, sell them at 3x the print size of the file you give them. yes, files can

be upsized etc, but i base it on what its supposed to be at 200 dpi, which is a good

enough rez. so 5x7 files are like $75 each, no volume discount.

 

i also ran some numbers for shoot to burn weddings, inwhich negs are an additional

product to wedding coverage. i shoot about 100 shots an hour, which get edited to 30

good ones an hour. for an 6 hr wedding, those 180 good shots, about 60 made it into the

album, and about 10-20 are portfolio grade. so if i were to shoot to burn, all 600 of those

images are charged. i calculated these by figuring that 10-25% of all files given would be

printed, calculated the print sales lost from those numbers and divided by total shots. i

figure people who i shoot to burn for, who want 5x7 files, will print more, 25% in this case,

that those who order hi res files for 8x10s, 10% or less.

 

this is something i really dont want to do, but i offer it, but dont advertise it, but its an

expensive option.

 

while i agree with the concept that the studio reputation goes out the door when they print

the images, they really couldnt care less. people requesting negs are very low end, looking

to save money because they can do it themselves, which appeals to a new generation of

people, and they can save a bunch of money. i do have clients, who do spend a good

amount of money, and do want low res files to email, which i provide at about $15/ea, or

$5 if they buy a print of the file, and this saves them the time of scanning a print to be

emailed, and gets them much better quality. and i am in control too.

Interesting and co incidental:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00KSzp&tag=

Digital negatives are NOT for "low end" clients "looking to save money because they can

do it themselves."

 

Our clients want their negatives for posterity. We continue to fulfill thousands of dollars in

reprint orders from people who could be making print themselves. I'm sure they run to

Wal-Mart for the occasional 4x6; that's fine with us. That's why they have the DVD.

 

We are happy to provide the negatives because the images are, at some level, useless to

us. In 50 years I will have no use for negatives from a wedding that took place in 2002. I

would like to know that all of those photographs are with the family to whom that day -

and those photographs - are so important.

> people requesting negs are very low end, looking to save money because they can do it themselves, <

 

and

 

> Digital negatives are NOT for "low end" clients "looking to save money because they can do it themselves." <

 

IMO and experience, requests for purchase of negatives, and `digital negatives` come from a range of clients, and a range of clients actively seek out such product.

 

However, also it is my experience that because of technological convergence, and the (low) cost of entry level digital media and the abundance of DIY photo print shops, many more Weddings on a tight budget seek out the purchase of digital files, than was the case previously, when there were fewer Budget conscious B&G were asking for the purchase of negatives. (percentage data, not whole numbers, thus accommodating any variance in actual numbers of Weddings photographed).

 

Also, we note that it is difficult to see what horse is leading the cart: as more photographers offer such a product it then becomes more commonplace, and hence to the consumer the `norm`. Thus those who have not considered such might feel short-changed if they do not have it.

 

IMO, it is easy to mix emotion and definitive business data, this issue is the most predominate discussed and the most emotively argued, at the two professional associations, of which I am a member.

 

Certainly this is a very complex issue and one where correct business decisions will, IMO, be integral to survival over the next few years.

 

WW

<i>"Certainly this is a very complex issue and one where correct business decisions will, IMO, be integral to survival over the next few years."</I>

<P>

I don't think I disagreed with anything you wrote, William, although we may continue to make different decisions based on our differing business plans, but I find your last comment something that we all need to consider. -- Well said.

For selling more orders you can double and triple your profits by offering framed enlargements, parent albums, prints to include in the gift Thank You cards, parent family portraits, a print of just the grandparent, bride and groom, the list is really endless. You have all of this printed at pro labs that offer archival prints. Included is also retouching on the larger prints, soft focus if they want. None of this can be dome at Walmart. After their order is done the give or sell the high res, retouched dvd.

 

We never let our work out (DVD's) that is not as perfect as we can get it. This is our reputation.

Not giving the negatives (film or digital) to the client is more of a quality control issue than anything else. At one point I followed the shot and scoot practice - give them the film at the end of the day, you've got your money and the problem is solved.

 

Unfortunately, I found that problems that the bride and groom had at the lab end would ultimately reflect on my reputation as a photographer. I found that most, instead of using the recommended pro lab, dropped in to the local one-hour and the quality of prints was questionable. You can put any disclaimer you want about using a proper lab into turning the negs over however, when family and friends look at the sub-standard prints they don't ask, "Who processed the prints." They asked, "Who took the pictures?" Ultimately, shoddy work at the lab costs you your reputation, which then costs you clients.

 

Today, I price my wedding photography the same way I price commerical photography. I have an hourly rate($400), a half day rate ($1200) and a day rate ($2000) which covers my costs and my profits. I then sell the prints at cost. This has the advanatage that I get what I want--final control over the finished product. The bride and groom get what they want--inexpensive reprints.

 

As for turning over the negatives (again digital or film) I as a professional am in a much better position to make sure that the negs are properly archived and backed up (and updated as new technology replaces old-try reading a CD from even 5 years ago) than the bride and groom, who for the most part will throw the negs/CD in a draw.

 

IMHO, giving the negs, does a disservice to the client, is unprofessional, and the lazy way out.