Digital Negative for Weddings?

I'm noticing many photographers include a cd w/ digital negatives to

clients...I would like to know how many of you handle this within in your

packages...such as:

 

1.) what about if you have an online gallery for prints to be ordered...do you

wait a certain time period (like say 90 days) before you hand over the digital

negatives to B&G? (because if not they can just get prints made for everyone)?

 

2.) do you include digital negs only for say a smaller size (4x6)....

 

What if a bride only wants negatives....that's it.....do you just charge for

shooting and a price for the negs?

 

Thanks for any feed back ahead of time!

I do not include negatives of any kind. Just because you are shooting digital does not matter. How many of these studios were handing over negs when they were shooting film? If the customer is interested in the digital files, it is the same cost as the film negs were, somewhere between 300 and 500 extra.

there is no standard of practice or pricing stucture for selling/including digital files or film negs.

 

pointing to what studios did in the past has little relevance given the current state of technology. high quality digital printing will have more of an impact on the business than digital capture imo. How this relates to your business at this point in time is up to you.

 

if there is one thing that sucessful photographers have in common it's that they've worked out a business model that works for THEM in THEIR market.

 

fwiw, I inlcude all negs/full res files. I offer no albums. I include an online gallery with prints priced at cost.

 

this model works for me, shooting the type of weddings I do, in the market that I work in.

 

cheers

Hi Lucas - so i'm wondering if you provide all digital negs and a gallery....do you give the cd to the b&G right away....being they can just provide the files to eveyone to be printed and therefore wouldn't necessarily need the online gallery...?? - thanks-

There are MANY different models.

 

Main thing for you to remember, if you give them hi-rez files, forget any future print sales. Therefore you MUST price your package accordingly.

 

IMHO 90 days is way toooo short a period of time. More practical is after say 3-5 years, then offer to sell the film negative or hi-rez files to the couple. This gives you on-line print revenue for this period of time. Also you do not have to archive the files. At that point it is the couples responsibility to preserve the files.

 

Alternatively you deliver the files with the album, and make that part of the package. I have a friend who does this.

 

On the other hand, some photogs make a good deal of $ on reprints LONG after the wedding. So giving up the files would bite into the reprint sales. BTW another friend told me that he made 2 albums LONG after the wedding; #1 couple was getting a divorse and they both wanted the album, #2 the album was lost when they moved.

 

The on-line sales is hopefully for the guests that don't have access to the proofs that you give to the couple.

 

Speaking of proofs, one option is to give the couple a proof CD with low-rez 4 x 6 images. These are fine for looking online at 72dpi monitor resolution, but if printed translates to a small 1 x 1-1/2 inches at standard 300dpi print resolution. This is to prevent making pirate prints from the proof CD.

 

One word of advice if you give only the files. You have absolutely NO control over the printing. So if they go to Cheap-Charlie's to make prints, they may come out looking absolutely LOUSEY. Then they will complain that you took lousey photos, even though the problem is in the printing. If they bad mouth you, then your reputation and future business is at risk. This is why some photogs will NOT give files to the couple until the album and package is delivered, so there is a delivery of GOOD photos that all subsequent photos can be compared to.

 

So it all comes down to your business model.

 

Just don't make the options so confusing that your client gets confused.

yes I give them the cd right away as well as posting the gallery right away. I price the prints on the gallery at COST which allows the client to have quality controlled (by me) prints at prices that are competetive with what they'd get going to their local lab.

 

Interestingly enough, even though I include the files on disc, people do end up using the gallery I setup anyway. I explain that while they may be able to shave a few pennies off the per print price by going elsewhere, if they use the gallery I will stand by the quality of the printing. it's also a convenience thing, they can email the gallery link to friends and family right away without attaching files to emails or setting up their own gallery.

 

I make no attempt at profiting from print sales and I price my shooting fee accordingly.

 

fulfilling print orders and putting together albums can be profitable, as evidenced by the many photographers who sucessfully operate that way, but it also takes alot of time and as I make the bulk of my income shooting other types of photography, it's time not well spent for me. for others it is.

 

I think when you're selling a product, any product it's critical to put yourself in the mindset of your potential clients. Beyond recongnizing the specfics of your own market etc, ask yourself, if I were them would I want to pay for this?

 

high quality custom prints and well done albums can be a very nice premium product, and one that imo is worthy of the markup. But as the general public becomes more and more experienced with having their own online photo galleries with very good machine print ordering available at very low prices I have to wonder if there's going to be a perception of value in marking those services up.

 

while I agree with the notion that we're selling our talent and skill and ultimately our images, not the paper and ink, I think it's worth examining HOW we sell it.

 

I feel more comfortable justifying my shooting fees (which are fairly high in my market) than I would trying to justify charging $25 for 8x10 from smugmug or wherever.

 

ymmv

 

cheers

"One word of advice if you give only the files. You have absolutely NO control over the

printing. So if they go to Cheap-Charlie's to make prints, they may come out looking

absolutely LOUSEY. Then they will complain that you took lousy photos, even though the

problem is in the printing."

 

Archaic advice. 50 basic packages later this has never happened to us yet. All you need do

is provide a couple of match prints with the DVD, and mark the color space you used.

 

For our clients who purchase photography only, (with the keepers on a DVD), we provide

large contact sheets for identification ... but they all are color correct ... so a client sees

the way they should look and won't confuse bad printing with bad photography. Besides,

they review the work on the computer when taking delivery. We also recommend a few

labs for quality work.

99.9% of labs these days can produce damn good looking prints. Even Wal-Mart prints are

pretty good if you're working from a good, clean file. And even when we see colors that

are a little bit off - the customer hardly ever does. We've trained ourselves to see things

from a photographer's perspective and forget that most people are not nearly as picky as

we are. I'm not saying we should be LESS picky, but most people won't notice a print that's

just a tiny bit too yellow or blue or whatever because of a crappy printer. If you give good

looking digital negs, they'll end up with pretty good looking prints almost all of the time.

 

I give digital negs AND use Smugmug for a few reasons ... First of all - when I shoot a

wedding, I hand out cards with a photo of the couple that explain how to go online and

view the pictures. That alone gets me hundreds of hits on my website every single

wedding ... guests who otherwise never would have known who the photographer was are

now going to my website and viewing the photos there. GREAT ADVERTISING! The other

reason I do it is because it's really convenient for the couples and their families. Instead of

the couple emailing pictures to everyone, they can email everyone a link to the gallery,

which is already set up and online even before they get their CD from me. Plus, the bride

doesn't have to deal with everyone she knows calling her up saying "I want #30" or

whatever ... they can go online and order the prints themselves. My smugmug prices are a

little higher than cost, but not too much and nobody's ever complained about them.

 

So that's what I do ... works for me. :)

 

Sarah / Roxy and Kai Photography / www.roxyandkai.com

sarah - thanks for your response....i just sent you an e-mail...i actually resent one from a couple of days ago that bounced back for some reason....in case you don't get my e-mail again could you e-mail me? I like your work and had some questions.... ;)

I sent you an email ... let me know if you don't get it!

I almost never release the hi-res files. I always provide an online gallery and CD of low-res images for e-mailing, blogging, etc. I have seen the horrendous quality of prints that can come from the local WalMart or CVS. Not worth having that reflect back on me... Reputation is too important.

 

Also, I've developed a reputation as an expensive studio that offers awesome wedding coverage. I charge over $50 for an 8x10 and don't even offer 4x6's, and people know that before they call. My reputation ends up presecreening prospective clients. I want people that will pay for nice work, and appreciate it for more than being a snapshot. I doubt that I could draw the clients I do if digital negatives and unlimited 4x6 prints were floating around...

That's awesome for you Mike, but since she posted this in the "beginner's" forum, I'm

thinking it's a little unrealistic for most of us! Maybe one day ...

Oh, and even the rich clients will scan and copy the photos they pay you so much for! It's silly

to think they won't!

hey mike good for you man. reputations can build quickly, but from just starting to do professional work to being a top studio in only 8 months is super impressive!

 

cheers

Frankly, if I could get $50. for an 8X10 I'd rethink my approach in a New York nano second.

 

My clients are waaaay to computer savvy to spring for that. Custom 8X10s from the best lab

in the area are $12. and they know that.

 

Besides, anyone that pays my shooting fee and then gets prints from Wall Mart is a fool, and I

have yet to shoot a fools' wedding.

I also think that customers will soon balk at paying hundreds (if not over a thousand) for flush mount albums. I just got an ad from Shutterfly for their 12x12 digital albums. Obviously not as sophisticated as what professional photographers can produce--in fact, the gap in quality and design quality is still large--but for less than $100--could be way less, I'm betting quite a few customers will not care. And the prints I got from them (just to see what they produce) weren't bad either. I just ordered one of their 4x4 brag books just to see how it looks.

"One word of advice if you give only the files. You have absolutely NO control over the printing. So if they go to Cheap-Charlie's to make prints, they may come out looking absolutely LOUSEY. Then they will complain that you took lousy photos, even though the problem is in the printing."

 

And a print made from a scan of a 6x4 will look better?

 

I give everything. I don't want to keep other people's photos so i think they deserve to keep a CD/DVD of their photos.

 

I don't make money from prints. It doesn't work in this market. But for every wedding, i DO NOT just give CD's. They MUST choose either an album or 120 x 6x4 in a slip in album. That way they already have prints to compare to and won't confuse bad photography with bad prints.

It is entirely about presentation and networking. I have raised prices three times in the past six months, and I draw most of my clients from the country club where that I joined for the sole purpose of networking. Giving away negatives simply undermines credibility. I don't want people to think that they can simply print off a photo of the same quality that they purchase from me... Sure they could from a decent lab, but with the right "artistic mystique" built up they typically don't.

 

Instead of clients thinking of your images as the equivalent of their snapshots, just a little more polished, build the mentality that you're an artist. How else could anyone ever sell a big gallery wrap? They'll by them if your prints are art... they would never put a WalMart print over the mantel.

There is a fine balance in providing original images and holding them for future printing and additional sales. If you would like to make a quick sale and very little work (photographing the event, handing over the originals) then price your package high enough to cover overhead and profit. Once the originals are out of your hands, there will be no additional sales. One positive note on this system is that there is very little work involve and a huge amount of potential profit. If you had captured the event, edited, color corrected and designed an online gallery and/or created an album design, how much time have you spent on this client? 10? 20? 40 hours? This can be very costly if they purchase very little from your designs. Your time is worth money and this should always be thought about when pricing a package for an event.

I give my clients 2 copies of digital negs right away. I don't want to keep someone's wedding photos from them. I also still make a lot of money on print sales from an oline gallery for friends and family out of town. The bride and groom still order prints from me even though they have digital files because I give them professional quality prints and they simply don't want to go through the hassle. I explain to them about Walmart quality prints, and they understand. I think my clients want the digital negs mainly for safety. If a client just wants the negs, I charge for my shooting time, and then $500 for the negs. This has worked well for me :)

"...before you hand over the digital negatives to B&G?"

 

Let's be clear Meg, I NEVER provide the RAW " digital negatives". The client gets high

resolution corrected tiffs and a matching set of jpg copies for internet use. I keep the RAW

files.

 

"If you would like to make a quick sale and very little work (photographing the event,

handing over the originals) then price your package high enough to cover overhead and

profit."

 

Quality wedding photography is neither a quick sale nor easy work. There is a viable

perspective that leans more toward the idea that capturing the wedding well, and talent in

doing so, is the most important task ... without that, it doesn't matter where or who makes

the prints. Pricing is based first on quality of photography, then quality of materials a

distant second.

 

"Giving away negatives simply undermines credibility."

 

Your credibility as a photographer shouldn't depend on this. Your talent and experience

should be the criteria for credibility. I have no credibility problems in my market at all, and

I have never held the images for ransom.

 

 

"Once the originals are out of your hands, there will be no additional sales."

 

 

Also not true for everyone. Many clients still return to me even though I tell them I'm an

expensive option. More importantly, I get a lot of return business from these clients. This

weekend I shot two jobs for Brides I've signed. I gave them the files for those shoots also.

 

I think the point is ... do what works for you. Keeping the files simply doesn't work for my

clients ... they're just to wise in the ways of computers and know that if the files are well

done, then any decent lab can make prints for a LOT less than $50. per 8X10.

 

BTW, Nadine, I agree. I'm already seeing a backlash concerning the price of good flush

mount albums. I'm finding it easy to sell clients off them ... they can't be altered once

printed, nor can a page br simply replaced if damage occures ... that's usually enough.