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Digital M- will it be full frame?


glenn_owens1

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With Canons new full frame D5 and i would imagine Nikon will

introduce something within 18 months. I'm thinking IF Leica is

working on a digital M dont even bother with it unless it has the big

sensor.

I dont even know if they are working on one but thats my opinion if

they are working on it.

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Rumors say the Digital M will have a 1.33x sensor, not full frame.

<P>

If true, it will make the camera less practical to use with existing Leica lenses. A 1.5x sensor (like the one in most Nikon DSLRs) would be better, because the lenses most popular with Leica users (35mm, 50mm, 90mm) would convert to familiar focal lengths. A 1.33x-factor sensor would produce mostly weird, nonstandard focal lengths:

<p>

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<td height=17 class=xl2221923 width=90 'height:12.75pt;width:68pt'>Focal

Length</td>

<td class=xl2221923 width=68 'border-left:none;width:51pt'>1.33x</td>

<td class=xl2221923 width=96 'border-left:none;width:72pt'>Comments</td>

<td class=xl2221923 width=68 'border-left:none;width:51pt'>1.5x</td>

<td class=xl2221923 width=96 'border-left:none;width:72pt'>Comments</td>

</tr>

<tr height=17 'height:12.75pt'>

<td height=17 class=xl2321923 'height:12.75pt;border-top:none'

x:num="21">21mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="27.93"

x:fmla="=A2*1.33">27.93mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="31.5"

x:fmla="=A2*1.5">31.50mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

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<tr height=17 'height:12.75pt'>

<td height=17 class=xl2321923 'height:12.75pt;border-top:none'

x:num="24">24mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="31.92"

x:fmla="=A3*1.33">31.92mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="36"

x:fmla="=A3*1.5">36.00mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nearly 35mm</td>

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<tr height=17 'height:12.75pt'>

<td height=17 class=xl2321923 'height:12.75pt;border-top:none'

x:num="28">28mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="37.24"

x:fmla="=A4*1.33">37.24mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nearly 35mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="42"

x:fmla="=A4*1.5">42.00mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

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<td height=17 class=xl2321923 'height:12.75pt;border-top:none'

x:num="35">35mm</td>

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x:fmla="=A5*1.33">46.55mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="52.5"

x:fmla="=A5*1.5">52.50mm</td>

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x:fmla="=A6*1.5">75.00mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Standard</td>

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x:num="75">75mm</td>

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x:fmla="=A7*1.33">99.75mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="112.5"

x:fmla="=A7*1.5">112.50mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

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<tr height=17 'height:12.75pt'>

<td height=17 class=xl2321923 'height:12.75pt;border-top:none'

x:num="90">90mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="119.7"

x:fmla="=A8*1.33">119.70mm</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Nonstandard</td>

<td class=xl2421923 'border-top:none;border-left:none' x:num="135"

x:fmla="=A8*1.5">135.00mm</td>

<td class=xl2521923 'border-top:none;border-left:none'>Standard</td>

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<P>

Presumably, the reason for making a Digital M is to use existing Leica lenses on a digital rangefinder camera. Anything other than a 1.5x or full-frame sensor would seem to defeat that purpose.

 

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I was dissappointed the DM8 was rumored to be 1.5

<br>

Anything but full frame is a non starter for me. I tried Canon D30 and was disappointed it wasn't full frame. Later I used it only for hockey and not much else, shot film with 1V and kept saving money until D5 came out.

VbrB

I will continue to shoot film with my M3, saving money along the way, until Leica comes out with full frame digital. We'll see what happens then.

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".....A 1.33x-factor sensor would produce mostly weird, nonstandard focal lengths....."

 

The crop factor of the sensor doesn't affect the focal length of a lens. In fact, the size of the sensor has absolutely no effect on the lens. A 28mm lens is a 28mm lens whether it is on a 35mm camera or a digital camera with a 1.5x crop factor.

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Tom,

 

First an aside, I second Eliot, 27.93mm is close enough to 28mm.

 

While I appreciate the logic that went into your table, I believe it to be flawed. Leica is producing a Digital M camera, not a digital M back for an existing camera. So they can pick whatever crop factor they want (by picking the sensor that is cheapest, works best with Leica glass) and make custom frame lines. If the sensor has a 2x crop factor and a 50mm lens is mounted framelines for 100mm and 150mm with be displayed (twice 50 and 75). Assuming that Leica keeps the 28/90, 35/135, and 50/75 pairing. However, I doubt they will.

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Thanks for going to the trouble of creating the grid, Tom. I guess that old 40 Summicron will suddenly come into big demand. LOL.

 

Serioulsy, though. 45 mm & 100 mm focal lengths, while not standard in Leica's past, have both served other manufacturers as their "normal" & portrait lengths, while 28 & 35 are pretty well covered in your grid.

 

cheers,

Bill

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Oops, you're right. For 27.93mm I meant to put "standard" in the table.

 

I think the crop factor DOES matter. Anyone who has used a film Leica will be accustomed to the standard focal lengths. Even if the Digital M has new framelines to match the nonstandard focal lengths, they won't match the focal lengths we're accustomed to using.

 

For example, when I have a 50mm lens on the camera, I'm used to "seeing" in 50mm, not in 66.5mm, even before I raise the camera to my eye. With a 1.5x crop factor, our 35mm, 50mm, and 90mm lenses will convert to focal lengths that have been standard on Leicas for many years. A 1.33x factor would completely change the way we use the camera, and it will be confusing for people who shoot with both a Digital M and a film Leica.

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We all know the M7d will not have a "full frame" sensor.

 

Tim Hyde , nov 28, 2005; 07:56 p.m.

"I hope not. Canon hasn't gotten it right yet and I'm guessing Nikon is too smart to try anytime soon."

 

Leica is also smart enough not to go the so called "full frame" route.

 

Richard Saylor , nov 28, 2005; 07:57 p.m.

"The crop factor of the sensor doesn't affect the focal length of a lens. In fact, the size of the sensor has absolutely no effect on the lens. A 28mm lens is a 28mm lens whether it is on a 35mm camera or a digital camera with a 1.5x crop factor."

 

These guys have some idea of what they are taking about.

 

Is a sensor "crop factor" really that hard to conceptualise. It takes a bit of imagination to swing a Leica M well. Slamming a CCD sensor array (full frame or not) into an M shape body will not simply translate fully the character and advantages of Leica M photography into digital realm. The notion is a nonsense. The digital M will be just another digital camera that just happens to be in the shape of an M camera. The MO of M film photography is different to that of digital capture. Most notably the reaction speeds capable with the film Ms will be totally lost in the digital version.

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Craig said:

 

<<< ... Most notably the reaction speeds capable with the film Ms will be totally lost in the digital version. ... >>>

 

Craig, I'm not sure "totally lost" is the way I'd put it. At a nearby camera store a few weeks ago, I played for a few minutes with the Epson RD-1, an M-mount, manual focusing, digital rangefinder. Its shutter actually cocks mechanically. And it seemed pretty responsive to me.

 

But I will say this much: when they told me the price, I became momentarily unresponsive -:)

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>45 mm & 100 mm focal lengths, while not standard in Leica's past, have both served other manufacturers as their "normal" & portrait lengths, while 28 & 35 are pretty well covered in your grid.

 

...not to mention 180mm, a long-time standard represented by the Olympia Sonnar and its modern descendants from Nikon and Zeiss, and even in the Leica R system.

 

>It doesn't matter what size sensor Leica uses. They aren't going to be around long enough to supply the dealer's (if there are any left).

 

This is the ugly truth.

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<I>Is a sensor "crop factor" really that hard to conceptualise. </I><P>For some people it

apparently is. By the way with serious film photographers, 24x36mm is known as a a

minutre format. HAving made pictures with a Nikon D2x 24x x16.7mm sensor) that are

far superior to anything I can do with a 24x36mm film camera and the same ISo setting o

nthe D2X as the film being used, all I can say is that most of you just don't want to

change. Your perogative but until you've tried a high end (And a D30 doesn't count as high

end, even when it was new) ) DSLR you really just don't know what you are talking about.

But hey, don't let a little thing like reality stop a good rant, right?

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I understand that aspect, but most M have a shutter trip delay of around 12 ms. Most SLRs are in the triple digits. It might not sound significant but in practice the difference is there. I know Canon in particular have done a lot to shorten delay response times but they are still a long way short of the Leica M.

 

Even given "video streaming" and other time saving advances in digital technology, in critical situations by the time a digital sensor has charged up, recorded the picture, and downloaded to buffer, the original shot is lost.

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full frame sux. all it will do is show the limits of your glass and leave a bad taste in your mouth as you crop it all out. so, getting used to a crop factor is no biggie. you'll buy a 15, 19, 21 etc etc and deal with it while appreciating the extension of the 50 becoming a wicked 75mm portrait lens as with the 90.

 

how about a zoom with real time moving digital frame lines? yes! and something over 1/1000th second? yes! or a sync at 1/250th? yes!

 

i hope it has a live lcd panel so you don't have to raise it to your eye all the time...

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