Differences between LTM 5cm Elmar versions

I've come across an LTM red scale Elmar 50 that stops down to f/16 and

has no serial number.

 

When were those made? Or are they all fakes?

 

The change from f/18 to f/22 to adopt the new standard f stops

makes sense to me, but why f/16 as well... did they decide later that

f/22 impacted image quality too much?

 

Do the red scale versions have a different optical formula?

 

Funny, btw, how little Erwin Puts says about the 50mm Elmar,

other than that the many versions make it a collectors nightmare and

delight or something.

Get a strong magnifier and examine the dark (black or bronze) ring that surrounds the front element. The serial number should be inscribed in VERY small numerals. Then you can go to a reference list to get the date of manufacture.

According to the Historical Society quartly a year or so ago, there are no definitive changes by serial number. Later serials may have the older glass etc.

 

My Red Scale goes to 22 and is good at that stop.

 

There were several varities of 3.5 glass between 1945 and 1955 although the changes were small.

Hi Jim,

 

no luck there... the ring is completely blank.

Ulf. I think this lens has been made up from parts of widely different ages ; f18 makes that bit pre-war ; not having a serial # suggests early 30s, or earlier still. The focusing mount must be 50s, with the red distance scale. Is the glass coated ? If not then maybe an early barrel has been put into a late focusing mount, if they remained the same sizes. The f-stops went to 16, post-war, then to 22.

My Elmar is SN 6033xx, which dates to 1946. It is black scale. The smallest stop is f/18. The scales on the hyperfocal settings on the focusing ring, at the base of the lens barrel, match those on the front of the lens. I have never found an Elmar 5cm that did not have a number somewhere around the front element, though, I agree, I have read that the earliest Elmars were not numbered, primarily because they were not intended to be interchangable.

Jim, that's interesting. I have one 613XXX, also one 632XXX and they have modern stops to f16.

 

The eary screw-mount lenses had the last 3 digits of the matching camera's # on the focusing mount. But the first standardized screw lenses had no ser.# at all. Anyone know why ?

My Elmar red dot (1049791) goes to f22<div></div>

I have read somewhere that the Red-Scale has a slightly less convex front element. It does have a heavier coating and it renders colour better, - close to the earliest ones, which I'm convinced changed something around 1932 ; the earlier glass even looks different. But I'm going OT. And as it's 1:20 AM, to bed.

Adrian, my Elmar has a metric focusing scale, so it was probably built for European sale. This may explain why it has different stops from those built for sale in the U.S. I bought it in 1952, mounted on a Leica IIIa, which had started life as a III, and, by the time I bought it, had been fitted by Leitz N.Y. with a synchronized baseplate and flash gun. Even though the scale stops at f/18, the aperture will stop down to f/22.

There may have been a change in the type of glass used for one or more of the glass elements and there may also be an improved optical formula in the red scale Elmar compared to previous lenses. This is still debated and is not certain. One thing for sure is that the red scale Elmars, which were made in the early-mid 1950s (and are thus coated) will perform better than wartime or pre-war Elmars that are uncoated. The contrast and resistance to flare should be noticeably better.

Thanks for all the interesting info, folks! I'd post a picture of the lens but don't have a digital camera.

 

The front ring, which on Luis' lens is brass with the serial number stamped into it, is black painted in my case - it's quite possible that the serial number was simply overpainted. My lens is coated (purple/pink) and doesn't look like any pre-war bits were used... it has the modern type satin chrome finish rather than the earlier shiny chrome.

Here are two shots taken at the same time and place with 5 CM Elmars : a 1930 non standardized screw and a 1953 Red Scale. Reala and the same exposures (different bodies, of coarse). Flatbed-scanned negs, no sharpenning. Reduced by 50% to full screen for this.

 

In fairness to the Red Scale, it is usually better than this. But the 1© often produces some fascinating colour. And in fairness to it, it does have a bit of every kind of affliction going. I'm torn between the two so carry both.

 

I'm not a 'real' photographer but want images to paint ; these produce them. Find I use 3.5 Elmar images more, though.<div></div>

....<div></div>

nice examples Adrian

There is a lot to be said for the older lenses, including, and perhaps especially, this one. I bought a 111a that was factory upgraded in the 1950s with flash sync and it came with an Elmar that, from the serial number dates to 1934, predating the camera by 2 years. It is coated and appears to have been factory coated at the same time. Simply wonderful performance. The lens has the old European aperture settings.

 

I have several books on Leicas including the Leica Pocket Book 7th edition. It shows a couple of diffent MTF curves for the Elmar 50mm f3.5 (early and late.) Not sure if there are differences in the design (it may only be coating.) The early curves almost identical to me, with only VERY slight differences. It would not surprise me however, given the duration of this lens if it went thru a lot of variants that are of interest to collectors.

 

BTW I can heartily recommend this book to anyone who wants a top class reference to the cameras and lenses and it is pocket size!!!!

Sounds good. I've just ordered the book.

Good one Ulf, you will not regret getting the book. I had a closer read after coming home from work (having relied mainly on memory before my earlier post) It says that the lens went thru a few iterations of design and tweaking.

It's a great little book alright. Funny how they give you room for your own notes on each page. I hope they'd mixed up the MTF graphs between the old Elmar and the Red Scale, otherwise things would've gone downhill. Strange though, there seems to be some difference between Erwin Puts' text here and in his Lens Compendium or pdf file at the Leica site, regarding the best aperture for some lenses for example. Not that it matters to me.

<p><em>" think this lens has been made up from parts of widely different ages ; f18 makes that bit pre-war ; not having a serial # suggests early 30s, or earlier still. The focusing mount must be 50s, with the red distance scale. Is the glass coated ?"</em><br>

<em>Elmars without serial numbers were supplied by Leitz for dual enlarging and taking uses and bundled with some Focomat 1c enlargers in the 1950s. I have one such RS (5cm/1:3,5 max f/16) and it came even with the special hood and no serial number (and was attached to its original enlarger home)---- for reference, I replaced it with a Focotar 2 as the Elmar is better suited to a camera than an enlarger. In this connection its interesting to note that Leitz had in their history provided enlarging ELMAR (quite different beasts from the taking ELMAR), VAROB (a variant, I think, of an enlarging ELMAR), taking ELMARs (for dual use) and at least 3 formulations of Focotars (in a few minor variations)--- the last one being double Gauss (Planar) type and unrelated to the ELMAR..<br /></em><br>

Leitz also made a number of objectives without serial numbers as prototypes--- although as mentioned not all without numbers are prototypes but might have been (as in this example) supplied through a different channel. Bastards tend to have serial numbers. Fakes always have serial numbers.</p>