developer temp control

whats the best way to control the temp of your developer when your room temp is to warm,, other wise my B&W film developer calls for 68 deg but my room temp stays over 75, any good way other than lowering the room temp to control this or is there a formula to calculate the time for warmer temps?

When I have dealt with high temperatures I have used a tray for a water bath , with ice cubes to bring the temperature down if necessary. A small ice chest or beer cooler would also work--put all of your chemicals in graduates with a thermometer in the developer and get water in the tray or cooler to a bit below 68 degrees and then put your graduates in the tray. Put your developing tank in the tray as well when you are not agitating to maintain the temperature of the chemicals in the tank.

Yes, I just use an Igloo cooler meant to hold a six-pack. I fill it about half way with water out of the tap that feels like it's about right and then add warm or cold water until it's around 68 °F. If it's winter I'll make it a few degrees warmer and in the Summer maybe a degree or two colder because the chemicals will have to sit in the water bath for awhile to reach the right temp.

 

Because I live in a cold climate, ground water is always fairly cool even if it's 100 °F outside. If your tap water isn't, then you'll have to add ice as AJG suggested.

 

Another alternate is to shorten the development time. You can find timings based on higher temps.

Edited June 23, 2020 by tomspielman

I've always used water bath- one of those big grey trays they collect dishes in in restaurants. Never had to resort to ice, but if your water's warm you'll have to do that too. Most developers have times for higher temperatures and there's also the Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database

There are tons of ideas on this topic, both here and elsewhere on the internet if you just Google. The picnic cooler, ice chest , and bathtub water bath for chemicals are the most often suggested.

whats the best way to control the temp of your developer when your room temp is to warm,, other wise my B&W film developer calls for 68 deg but my room temp stays over 75, any good way other than lowering the room temp to control this or is there a formula to calculate the time for warmer temps?

 

Most film datasheets have a section about Processing at Different Temperatures" At least Ilford data sheets have the section complete with graphs that show the change in developing time versus temperature. It has two charts, one for temperature in Celsius and one for Fahrenheit.

 

Since I usually dilute my stock solution with water to make a working solution. Since I am lazy, I wrote a small program for my HP-48GX calculator to give me an approximate temperature for the water to make the working solution whatever temperature I wanted. I say approximate because to be exact I would need to know the specific heat and the density of the stock solution. The specific heat and density of water are available in any good reference book. In any case, it was close enough. Then it was mix water from the tap and water from the refrigerator to get the proper temperature. Then mix the working solution.

The 68F/20C temperature goes back many years, when films weren't as hardened as they are now.

 

Up to 75F is fine for modern films, though charts might only go to 72. One problem, though,

is that the times might get too short, where it is hard to fill/empty fast enough. More dilute

solutions increase the times, which will make it easier.

 

For the higher speed films, the times are longer, and higher temperatures are recommended.

 

The data sheet for Delta 3200 is here, with times up to 23 minutes at 68F/20C

and shorter times at 75F/24C. No-one wants to develop for 23 minutes!

 

You could use XP2 in C41 chemistry at about 100F, then you only warm instead

of cool down the solutions.

In addition to the water tray method, you can place ice cubes or hot water in a zip-lock bag and dunk to cool or heat the fluids of the process. The sealed food bags work and they are robust enough so you can use then with safely.

I will toss out my Igloo cooler idea again. Presently here in Hawaii all the liquids will be near 78-80 f for any developing. If I were back in Wa. state, they would linger around 68-70f. Development time in the 68- 70 range is "basically" 15min for any of my Catecol / Pyro mixes. Here on Oahu it would be 12min. It is not hard to figure out how to raise / lower the temps and adjust the times. Aloha, Bill

Unless your water comes out of the tap at 75F (yukk!) there should be no need for ice. Just temper a bowl of water to a little below 68F and stand your tank and fixer/stop/etc bottles in it until their temperature comes down to 68.

 

Ice could be used to speed up the process, but it shouldn't be essential.

 

Using a concentrated developer like HC-110 means you can dilute it with water at the right temperature just before use. Since only the developer temperature is really critical. The stop, fix and wash water can be a few degrees higher, but no more than 8 to 10 degrees F higher for fear of reticulation - highly unlikely with modern emulsions, but better safe than sorry.

 

Alternatively you can use the developer data sheet to find a time for 75 F processing. Again, you only need to adjust the developer time. It's almost impossible to over-fix a film.

 

P.S. memory cards don't really care what temperature you use them at, as long as the plastic casing doesn't melt.;)

ok, I found this chart, would it be reliable for most films besides Ilford? https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Temperature-compensation-chart.pdf

Development times follow Arrhenius, pretty much the same for all developers.

 

Arrhenius equation - Wikipedia

 

All that I have known for over 50 years have times up to 72F.

Using any extrapolation to 75F should be pretty close, or cool of to 72.

 

I used Diafine for many years, and still do often enough.

It works with the same times from 70F to 85F.

I specifically avoid doing temperature control for black and white processing. Temperature control is messy, difficult to get exact, and subject to drift during the processing sequence. In other words imprecise. I do time control instead of temperature control and work at room temperature. There is no temperature drift and timing can be down to the second if desired; very precise and reproducible.

 

In my darkroom, for example, using my replenished Xtol a film that develops in 4 minutes at 86F needs 23 minutes at 55F. With appropriate adjustments for temperatures in between the negatives come out the same. Ok, there's a bit of initial experimenting to get a time vs temperature chart set up but it's easy after that.

 

For completeness I should add that time vs temperature control is unsuited to divided developers and monobaths in general, and, in particular, metol based formulations below about 60F.

Like Maris and others.. I generally work at room temp. Sorry to jump on an old thread here.. but I noted a few things and was hoping someone could add to this.
Both my dilution water (tap or distilled) is at the same temp as my stock solutions. I saw some use the ilford guide lines while others have even written a program to calculate the difference. Meanwhile, the "Massive" Development chart has a Time/Temp converter tool. You put in the recommended time and then  the current or actual temperature and you get the new recommended time for this temperature.  But when the room temp is too high ..in the summer it might be 28-30c, or in winter in the 12-15 Celsius the times become exaggerated to the point that it is not recommended to use for various reasons. 
I noted my friend Bill uses a cooler and this seems to be a very logical answer to maintain temp.  I thought in the modern world I frequently see coolers that (seem to me) to be adjustable and can keep things hot or cold based on DC power. I've seen where you plug-in to the cig lighter and use the cooler to maintain a constant temperature. This seems ideal ...or is this NOT how they work?!?
I imagine a work flow where I place or keep  the various liquids , stock solution, water for dilution, and fixer. Assuming this is possible; set the temp and wait about an hour to let it settle in. Ideally you have a thermometer showing the temp. Even if you can only use the cooler to "maintain" the temp, having the temp readout of the "internal temp" would make it worthwhile. In some examples above, you are creating a bath for chemicals to sit in (inside the cooler or otherwise. I think a temp controlled cooler would be a less fussy and maybe more reliable system.  Interested in any feedback on this? I noted these DC coolers are not cheap!

 

 

2 hours ago, chuck_foreman1 said:

Like Maris and others.. I generally work at room temp. Sorry to jump on an old thread here.. but I noted a few things and was hoping someone could add to this.
Both my dilution water (tap or distilled) is at the same temp as my stock solutions. I saw some use the ilford guide lines while others have even written a program to calculate the difference. Meanwhile, the "Massive" Development chart has a Time/Temp converter tool. You put in the recommended time and then  the current or actual temperature and you get the new recommended time for this temperature.  But when the room temp is too high ..in the summer it might be 28-30c, or in winter in the 12-15 Celsius the times become exaggerated to the point that it is not recommended to use for various reasons. 
I noted my friend Bill uses a cooler and this seems to be a very logical answer to maintain temp.  I thought in the modern world I frequently see coolers that (seem to me) to be adjustable and can keep things hot or cold based on DC power. I've seen where you plug-in to the cig lighter and use the cooler to maintain a constant temperature. This seems ideal ...or is this NOT how they work?!?
I imagine a work flow where I place or keep  the various liquids , stock solution, water for dilution, and fixer. Assuming this is possible; set the temp and wait about an hour to let it settle in. Ideally you have a thermometer showing the temp. Even if you can only use the cooler to "maintain" the temp, having the temp readout of the "internal temp" would make it worthwhile. In some examples above, you are creating a bath for chemicals to sit in (inside the cooler or otherwise. I think a temp controlled cooler would be a less fussy and maybe more reliable system.  Interested in any feedback on this? I noted these DC coolers are not cheap!

 

 

I haven't tried your cooler idea, but I would be skeptical of the precision of the temperature control on a device like this.  As we know from looking at a developer time-temperature chart 2 or 3 degrees can make a big difference in the developer timing for good results.  In my first studio, where it got really hot in the summer and digital didn't exist yet, the tray with ice cubes gave me good and consistent results.  There were lots of expensive ways to control temperature but I couldn't justify the expense for the amount of processing that I was doing for myself and I didn't want to become a lab for other people to have the automation make financial sense. I kept a couple of trays of ice in the small refrigerator/freezer that I had for film storage, and that worked well for me.

If you have an air-conditioner you set at it at 68 F degrees then you can work at room temperature. I 

The AC would work but would consume a lot more energy than a tray of ice cubes for cooling chemistry.

9 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

If you have an air-conditioner you set at it at 68 F degrees then you can work at room temperature. I 

Yes! I have an air-conditioner and I set it at 24c (75F) and let the film processing chemistry and wash water stabilise at that temperature. For example my Xtol-R developing time of 11m 15s at 68F goes to 7m 40s at 75F. Easy to do, stable, and reproducible.

And the air-con is also very nice for the photographer especially on a day like today topping out at 39C.

Thanks all who replied. I realize now, that these coolers only have warm or hot and no "control".. Taking it a step further... other people also wanted to control temperature. I didn't find any that were were for photo chemicals per others were for incubators, fermenting home-brewing so "quite " exact was the goal. 
There were a lot of DIY You-Tube videos. This one was geared to my "cooler" concept
 

While I'm not lazy nor is this beyond my skill level, .. I did want ro buy ( Prêt-à-Porter ) a solution with a cooler... I guess I'll have to think about this some more!! 
 

In the dim and distant past, I used to use a washing up bowl with water in as a water bath, tank, rinse water and chemicals within as well, kept at the correct temperature with a fish tank thermostatically controlled heater (tap water always from cold tap, filtering out Ice particles as necessary). Before using this 'live', I left it for 8 hours (until ordered to wash up and stop mucking around), checking the temperature every half hour or so (depending on when cups of tea were ordered) - it never varied more than 0.5 degrees Celsius either way (checked with a lab mercury thermometer). Fish tank heaters and associated cabling are isolated from mains power, and I also sealed a small plastic bag around it and wore rubber gloves, both to provide further insulation and prevent chemicals affecting my hands. 

I did toy with the idea of creating my own processing station, a long wooden box, lined with fish pond rubber sheeting, in which chemicals etc could be kept in order of use, but this was vetoed on the grounds it would look ugly. I did offer to paint it pink, but the answer was still no.

I was interested to see the notion that a cooler could be powered from the cigarette lighter socket in a vehicle, and wondered how many people actually processed film on the move ? I suppose hanging it from the passenger window to dry might be possible .. .. ..

 

Edited January 22 by Tony Parsons

"While I'm not lazy nor is this beyond my skill level, .. I did want ro buy ( Prêt-à-Porter ) a solution with a cooler... I guess I'll have to think about this some more!! "

My darkroom which is in a walk-in closet heats up to about 79F in the summer and in the winter averages about 72-75F. This is still not cool enough for some chemichals plus you can't really control the ambient temperature at will. 

In my darkroom I use a Sterilite 4 drawer shelf such as this one:(the one shown is 3 drawer, but mine is 4 drawers) . It cost me about $30

I put all my chemicals and trays inside this drawer when developing paper.

The reason why I use this drawer is because I don't want to spill chemicals on the rug in my walk-in closet. My landlord might kill me.

I was thinking about  rigging up one of these Peltier Cooling systems into the drawer somehow, but currently I'm not sure how do do it ? The Peltier AC systems are not as powerful as regular air-conditioners but they can certainly cool a small area like Sterilite drawer(I hope)...
 

Edited January 24 by hjoseph7

The 12V ones I know of use a thermoelectric cooler like the one shown.

They aren't so efficient, so be careful with battery power. 

For home use, you can get small normal refrigerators for a low price.

 

Otherwise, I learned about Diafine from my grandfather when I was 10.

(That is, about 55 years ago.)

Diafine works 70F to 85F, with no time change needed.

 

But my darkroom gets to about 50F in the winter, so I have a heater that I turn on, maybe a day before.

About 70F in the summer, so that works well.