DEP mode

Hi

 

back in 90 or so I bought my first canon film body (a 630) because I was so

impressed with (among other things) the DEP mode. Soon it was appearing on even

the base model bodies like the EOS 1000.

 

Now it seems to have vanished from the line of cameras (with the DSLR

overtaking the film one).

 

I wonder is this because they're too slack to put it on OR because they

percieve that the market is not interested in the feature? Of the people I

personally have given my camera to, noone seems to quite get how to use it or

seems to be interested in using it.

 

so perhaps canon are just realising that the market doesn't get composure for

DoF and therefore DEP

 

anyone have any other ideas?

They still have DEP mode on their 1-series DSLR bodies (and as you already know, older film bodies)! Unfortunately they only have a dumbed down version called A-DEP on other "lesser" DSLRs, like the RebelXT. It's not as sophisticated as the real DEP function and is aimed at users that don't quite understand hyperfocal distance, I think. It's still there, in a way, but not as usable for more advanced users in the "prosumer" market.

"They still have DEP mode on their 1-series DSLR bodies..."

 

Incorrect...no DEP mode on 1D MkII, 1D Mk III, etc. etc.

Yet another DEPer comes out of the woodwork ... alas, too late. The

official word for the demise was that the decision came entirely from

Japan, with the explanation that the algorithm required too much space in

the firmware. I think you hit the true reason on the head in describing

the reaction to your camera by others. I think it simply indicates that

those who grew up with AF never learned to use a lens DoF scale, and

probably didn't understand the purpose of the DEP mode. I had to explain

its use to a few people at a local dealer several years ago.

<p>

Sadly, I think the feature is gone forever. Consequently, no current AF

camera affords any control of DoF ... progress.

"...no current AF camera affords any control of DoF ... progress..."

 

Well, not exactly...when shooting landscapes - I usually take a DOF chart with me, focus at certain known distance - and happily shoot away.

I have no trouble with no DEP mode: it is hard to expect the camera to focus properly at "infinity" anyway, and I prefer to do it myself.

Hmm ... too much space hey?

 

I wonder how much space the RAW to JPG conversion engine takes up? Considering that the EOS 600 series had DEP I'll bet that it is more accurately measured in BYTES than Meg. But I suppose that the developers are coding camera PROMS in Java these days ...

 

I used to think that DEP was a great comfort as I grew up using the DoF scales on rangefinder camera which I could count on (when measuring close focus subjects with a ruler to the film plane marker) being pretty dam close. I liked the DOF preview in my first SLR (an OM-1) and was 'surprised' when they disappeard of the lenses which were the offering with my EOS.

 

Personally I would NOT have bought into Canon if they had not 'covered' this ommision with the DEP mode (which I loved at first use).

 

Hmm ... but wouldn't carring tables be 'off camera'? A bit like not including light meters "because I can use my seikonic". I have to use such tables with my 4x5 inch sheet film camera (well, I use vadeMecum on my pilot actually) but if I'm using a hand held camera (the major benefit to 35mm or digital IMHO) then why would I want to take so much time as to fluff about with tables.

 

sigh ... DEP is "gone with the wind" I suppose. (or converting back from Katakana that would be "gone with the window")

 

At least with the on lens markings I could:

- roughly focus on the subject

- by looking at the distance scale on the lens would immediately see

which fstop I should pick to get the DOF

- pick that apature and let the camera pick the shutter

 

it used to be that simple, more so with a 24mm lens, I could even hand the camera to someone else and know that they wouldn't get it horribly wrong when taking a picture of me that way.

 

now I have to estimate the required apature (not dreadfully difficult for wide angle lenses but trickier for 50mm and longer)

 

But as has been said ... I guess that's progress

Not wanting to hijack this thread, but how about the A-DEP mode on the Rebel XT. Agreement in this thread seems to be that it's a useless feature?

 

As it happens, I was just exploring my Rebel XT last night. I have been shooting with it for almost 2 years now, and was wondering what features it might have that I have so far neglected. I've never used any of the modes in the 'basic zone', and have no interest in them, since they seems to be aimed at people who don't know or care how aperture and shutter speed determine exposure. But I discovered that there is this 'A-DEP' setting in the 'creative zone' that I have never used. I looked it up in the manual, and it was described as doing precisely what Chris Eastwood is looking for, but I take it from this thread that it's not working all that great in practice? I haven't had a chance to try it out myself, and am now wondering how much time I should waste on it.

40d that just came out has some kind of DEP mode. It supposedly tries to pick the aperture semi-intelligently and flashes the focus points that fit within the depth of field . I can see this being useful for group portraits when you don't have time to figure out if it should be F8 or F11. The DOF ticks on most new lenses seem to be too close together to be useful even if one knows how to use them. The old dep mode was too much hassle I think - you had to focus three times for it figure out the aperture.

As an aside, in my native language, German, 'Depp' means idiot - not a word you will want to use in polite company. I guess I have a certain reluctance to use a DEP mode - despite the missing p ;-)

My experience is very similar to Chris Eastwood's. Canon's DEP mode did

essentially the same thing as manual-focus lens DoF scales, but did so much

faster and easier. DEP mode was a significant factor in my decision to

move to Canon as well. I share Chris's skepticism with the “too much

space” explanation.

<p>

I certainly can use DoF charts, and can do the calculations myself for that

matter. What I have never understood is how people make accurate distance

settings using the scales on most AF lenses.

<p>

I'm not sure the A-DEP feature is completely useless; it might work for

something like a group portrait. It's not of much use for landscapes

because the near and far points are too close together.

<p>

Depp ... hmmm ... Perhaps the real idiots are the ones who never

appreciated DEP mode.

I actually used DEP mode on my old EOS 5 all the time. It was a shiftable version so I could

stop down more by turning the main input wheel. The shift feature was removed from the

Elan 7 series and EOS 3/1V. A-DEP is the pits due to a lack of control--you can't pick near

and far points and no shift feature. Now I guessimate with zooms but also use the DOF scale

on a few primes.

Well, I may be getting old - but I care less and less about all these additional features. All I really need is a big sensor with low noise and plenty of pixels: fast and accurate AF: fast shooting speed, say more than 6 fps: good metering, including spot, and...well, not much more.

 

Of course it is nice to have a Swiss knife of a camera, except I more and more dislike the use of Swiss knives. But again, it is just me.

<p>I don't buy the "too much space" argument, either. It fit in the extremely limited space for code in cameras 15 years ago; now, cameras have <em>megabytes</em> of flash for program code, and surely DEP will fit. Heck, the latest bodies even let you rotate the image (and I don't just mean quarter-turns) for direct printing; <em>that</em>'s gotta take up several times as much space as DEP ever did. I would gladly kill the stupid direct print button if it freed up enough space to give me DEP back.</p>

 

<p>A-DEP supposedly tries to get everything that's under any of the AF points to be within DOF. That may or may not be what you want, and is very different from DEP. With DEP, you pick two specific things which you want to use as the limits of DOF. They don't even have to be located under AF points in your final composition, because you can recompose when picking each one and again when setting your final composition. You could pick the head and knees of a subject sitting on a park bench. A-DEP, on the other hand, will also include the tree that's 10m behind the subject, and possibly the other trees 50m behind that.</p>

 

<p>As for shiftable DEP, I'm not sure if my Elan II had it; as Puppy points out, my Elan 7E didn't. But it was easy enough to simulate if you wanted it. Use DEP, but instead of taking the picture, switch the lens to MF (the lens is already focused at the calculated distance), switch the body to Av, and set an aperture that differs from what DEP suggested. Yes, the shiftable version is easier, but doesn't do anything you couldn't do manually with a non-shiftable version. Unless you're using one of the antique A lenses which lacked any sort of MF, but hey, if you are, sucks to be you (and you're probably using the camera as a big heavy P&S anyway and wouldn't care about DEP).</p>

<p><i>With DEP, you pick two specific things which you want to use as the limits of DOF. They don't even have to be located under AF points in your final composition, because you can recompose when picking each one and again when setting your final composition.</i></p>

 

<p>That actually does sound pretty useful, and is also a good explanation why A-DEP is not anywhere near as good. My Rebel XT is my first Canon - I used to shoot manual focus Minolta - so I guess I missed DEP - pity!</p>

"Use DEP, but instead of taking the picture, switch the lens to MF (the lens is already focused at the calculated distance), switch the body to Av, and set an aperture that differs from what DEP suggested."

 

Maybe it is clever, but to me has all the hallmarks of more steam going to the whistle rather than to the wheels. I am just wondering when we will stop being so preoccupied with the tools and the contortionist tricks we can achieve by pressing a number of buttons in prescribed order...of course everyone is free to do that AFAIAC.

Setting focus and initial f-number with DEP and then switching to M to set

a different (usually smaller) f-number was standard practice on the EOS-1

series models that included DEP. It wasn't quite as easy as with the

shiftable DEP on the EOS-5, but it still was faster than using lens DoF

scales on MF lenses, and not really much more fiddling.

Another fan of DEP here since the A2e. Fortunately it's available on the original 1Ds and I use it often. Since I have CF 4-1 set, I don't have to bother switching the lens to MF mode after I've used DEP either. I just switch to Av mode, and make sure the aperture is set to at least what DEP recommended.

 

What I wouldn't give for a newer body with DEP and Eye Controlled Focus.

The switch wasn't to MF, but to manual exposure. Even with DEP shift on

the EOS 5/A2/A2E, CF4-1 (another reason for switching to Canon at that

time) seemed essential to avoid the need to race to re-frame and lock the

tripod head before the display timed out, forcing one to repeat the DEP

process.

<p>

It's interesting that the DEP fans come out of the woodwork after the

feature appears to have vanished forever ... there may have been more of

them than Canon realized. As someone suggested in another thread a while

back, I would not surprise me if the feature could be restored via a

firmware change ... provided, of course, that there was enough room.

I remember reading a thread some time ago about DEP, possibly on another forum. The overwhelming consensus was that it was a useless feature, and many responders either weren't aware that their camera had it, or were unsure what it did and how to use it. Like ECF, it's one of those things where you have to read the manual in order to familiarize yourself with the cameras features. To my mind it's much easier to use DEP than to carry around DOF charts and what not, especially with the miniscule distance scales on modern zoom lenses. But if people aren't going to bother to familiarize themselves with the feature, it's not overly surprising that Canon would simply eliminate it in favour of "picture styles" and a print button.

 

We might be coming out of the woodwork now that the feature has been eliminated, only to wish it was still there, but I have a feeling that overall it's still a minority of people that actually want and use it because the majority simply doesn't realize how useful it actually was.

For anyone who understood zone focusing using manual-focus lens DoF scales,

DEP mode is a no brainer. What the confusion about DEP mode suggests is

that few people really learned zone focusing prior to the advent of AF

lenses, and didn't realize that anything had been lost with the demise of

usable DoF scales.

<p>

For those who finally feel safe in coming out, it doesn't hurt to come out

to Canon. I think it would take many thousands of letters to get anyone's

attention, but the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

We're largely preaching to the converted in this forum.

<p>I feel the reason of "taking too much memory in EEPROM" is a bunch of crock. If they could fit the algorithm into a 20 year old camera with 32kb of space (or something like that) so now day 8Mb cameras could do the same. I missed the feature and just assumed that it will be on 1dsm3. I am quite dissapointed about it not being there, and wonder if Canon could add it with another firmware update.</p>

<p>It's really disappointing that this function is now completely missing in Canon's DSLR line-up. I last used it on the A2 film body many years ago, in order to find the perfect hyperfocal distance. I really miss it for static landscape photography. I know that the new 7D is positioned more for sports and action photography, but this feature is also missing from the relatively new FF 5D Mark II. Progress? Sigh.</p>

<p>I know that everyone is mostly excited and interested about potential image quality with new Canon model releases, both at the pixel level and in the final post-processed print result (me too), but what about real workflow and usability in the field with the new feature sets? Given the resolution levels and image quality that we've already achieved relative to our 35mm film roots, don't these attributes measure up equally in importance? </p>

<p>The DEP function was VERY useful for landscape shooters. Please bring it back, Canon!</p>