Deep inside yourself, you know....

... was my initial reaction, when I previousy read posts like: "What should I

buy?....". Well, shame on me, I am now in the same position: what should I

buy?

 

I have a D70 today, with only about 15000 clicks on the meter, and it has

served me well.

 

I shoot a lot of different genres of pictures, but in the last year, my

daughter (11 yrs old) has started to dance freestyle/discojazz, and I want to

have as good pictures as possible of her "in action". The action is hyper-

fast, and the competitions are in bad gymnasium lighting. I have bought a

couple of primes (50 1.8 and 85 1.8) to get as much light as possible recorded

with or without my SB-800, but lately I have brought my kit-lense 18-70, as

the wideangle is needed when the dancers approach, and the short tele when

they are at some distance. I shoot mainly RAW, so that I have some degree of

saving the images if the lighting conditions are too bad.

 

However, I am not quite satisfied, without knowing excactly why.

 

My NAS tells me I need more equipment, my subconcience deep down tells me I

have what I need, what I now need is more practice.

 

I have been looking at:

 

D300: Faster shooting action, more MP so that I can crop more, and still get

some decent pictures, extra body so that I can have a tele on one of the

bodies and the kit zoom on the D70

 

17-55: Sharper lense than the kit lense (I think), f-stop 2,8 in stead of 3,5-

4,5

 

and the boring (NAS-wise) alternative : Understand I need more practice, keep

what I have, keep shooting and delete 95% of the images.....

 

What should I do, dear fellow photo.net'ters???

 

Per-Christian

My own thinking, based on experience, is when in doubt, think about it some more. That almost always leads to a lens purchase for me.

 

 

Kent in SD

How high of ISO do you find acceptable? Shutter speed is the key component! Have you considered the D80, it has good ratings at higher ISO. I have the D50 and shoot Volleyball, Basketball, and Church functions with the 50/1.8 and get good pictures at ISO 800 and if I really watch and not under expose the pictures I can get acceptable pictures at 1600, if needed. I am considering the 85/1.8 and the 35/2.0 because of the different types pictures I am shooting. With the 50/1.8 I find I have to crop too much of the picture in the sports and cropping off body parts with the church pitures. I have considered the Sigma 30/1.4 but it isn't the fix all for me either. If only we could afford the D3.

How's the light? Is it good enough or not? If not, can you use flash units? Are you allowed to set them up ahead of time? If so, a couple of strobes plus wireless triggers would be your cheapest solution, and you could get by with your 18-70.

 

Trying to deal with low light by improving glass or the body is going to be very expensive. Besides which, if your 50/1.8 isn't cutting it, then you need to look at a much better low light body which is the D3 ($5000!!!).

 

If the 50/1.8 and 85/1.8 are fast enough, then you could just buy another body to complement the D70. A D80 would be a good choice.

 

 

larsbc

Thanks, guys, for comments so far!

 

@Kent: Good advice. I also ordinarily end up with some new investment......

 

@Tim: I find that ISO1600 is a bit too much noise on the D70, especially in low-light conditions. I have also considered the SSigma 30/1.4 or the 20/1.8, but then again, with only one camerabody, I miss a lot of action on the other half of the arena. Yes, the D3 is said to have fantastic low-light capabilities, but my lottery ticket has not been succesful yet.

 

@Larry: The light is unfortunately bad and dark. Some roof-mounted light in different Kelvin-degrees, which makes color temperature a nightmare. For non-flash pictures, the majority of pictures gets an average exposure value of f2, 1/60th sec at ISO 1600. With the flash (and thanx to the fast sync. value of the D70) my flash pictures can get f3,5 1/500 th sec at ISO 200, but the margins for over-exposure of the main subject are small.....

 

A good tip regarding investing in a couple of wireless strobes. Unfortunately, there is no free zone between the athletes and the public, so I fear that the strobes would sneak into someones bag during the day...... ;). The 50 as well as the 85 should be fast enough with flash, but then again, with only one body, I miss some on the wide end, and will not have time to change lenses during the competition.

 

 

...

 

This is not easy. More comments from the world is highly appreciated....

I shoot D200's at 1600 + all of the time and don't have any noise issues. (of course, I run everything through Noise Ninja) I'd hold off on the D300 since the majority of the Nikon hype around high ISO has been centered on the D3, not the D300 and as you stated your lottery ticket hasn't been the winner yet.

 

Without you breaking the bank, you might be to find a used D200 or a new one on clearance. Even though Nikon hasn't "officially" discontinued it many stores are clearing it out in anticipation of the D300. The D200 has better (IMO) noise handling then the D70, is better built than the D80 / D40(X).

 

Another option is to grab one of the new f2.8 24-70 zooms when they hit the market.

 

dave

Always listen to yoru inner NAS....

I have the D80. I rarely use ISO 1600 unless I have terrible light or need a real fast shutter speed but I have not been thrilled with the results. In your case, you need more light and faster shutter, making it more of a problem.

 

Try ISO 1600 and see how it works for you because you will shoot at a minimum 1/250 to catch any action, probably faster. A monopod/tripod may help. Then apply some noise reduction software and see what it looks like. But if you have black background, your results may be disappointing. At least try it before you break the bank.

 

The 17-55 is a great lens but given what you are trying to achieve, I would consider spending the money (and a little more) to upgrade to a D300 instead if you need to improve your results. As said, we don't really know how well it performs at high ISO but you can bet the newer technology will make it better than anything released previously.

I have a D80 & am usually disappointed with the results above ISO 400 (& even ISO 400 itself results in rather too much of the 'watercolour effect' for my tastes, rather than noise as such). I was out shooting with my 18-200VR at the weekend and got surprisingly good results handholding at low shutter speeds. Unfortunately, VR will do nothing to freeze the action. I'd be tempted to say Canon 5D plus 24-105 f4 IS L lens but this is a Nikon forum........and you already have an investment in Nikon gear.

 

I'd be inclined to wait until the D300 hits the shelves to see how the high ISO noise capability shapes up. Meanwhile fast glass & noise ninja looks like the best way forward - good lenses are always a good investment anyway. For a cheaper solution, the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 might be worth a look.

I think your daughter would be more interested in video than a bunch of photos. However a couple of great photos is...great. So go after a few great ones instead of trying to do video.

 

On camera flash sucks but it's better than nothing. However I would take at least two off camera radio triggered speedlights and put them on stands. If you know the routine (and you should) I would then pick a few positions on the dance floor where I expect great shots to happen. I would then check focus on those spots or measure distances on manual focus lenses and try out a good focal length. When it's time for action I would be pre-focused, with the right focal length and all the settings correct (camera in manual of course) and I would try to capture a great moment when they hit that area in their routine. And then pre set for the next one and so on.

 

If you use autofocus set your camera to continous focus in the menus, assign the ae-l/af-l to AF on (use that to focus) and use the center focus point only. Don't shoot in burst mode because the flash can't recycle fast enough anyway.

 

For post production get noiseware and set the noise reduction so that the shadows have full noise reduction but the rest of the image less so the performers don't look like plastic dolls but the dark areas will look nice.

 

Also put CTO gels on the flash heads to match the ambient lighting (if tungsten) otherwise the flash will look cold and unnatural. Shooting raw you could play with white balance but a rather warm setting would probably be nice. Also some motion blur could add some spice to your photos, y'know capture the feeling rather than a forensic documentation of the event.

 

I expect their routine to last a few minutes. You should be able to switch lenses inn less than 10 seconds so it shouldn't be a problem. Use your kit lens fixed at 18mm for wide angle and the 50mm and 85mm for the rest. With the strobes you'll probably be shooting at f4, ISO800 or something like that. Set shutter speed to taste.

 

Good luck!

 

Peter

like you,i first tested the water.with a d 70,and most of the time it was fine,and i got some good photos.but ever now and then,i could not tell if a dot or smudge,was a bird.well last year i moved up to a d200,and boy.WHAT a difference it has made.i certainly,don`t feel the heed to move up to a d300.

I have a D70.. Love it. I also like low light photography.

 

Do consider the noise reduction software. I was impressed with what they can do. However My NAS overtook me and I got an S5pro for its high ISO and High Dynamic range performance which is great for indoor shots with spotlights in the background. It arrived the day the D3 and D300 was announced! :-) With the recent reduction in price its even better value although the D3 does seem to have taken away most of its advantage in Dynamic Range and blows it out of the water in speed and High ISO. However it does seem to compare favorably against the D300 in terms of ISO performance and DR.

 

In a recent photo day trip. I had my 12-24 on the d70 and my 18-200vr on the S5pro.Shooting with 2 cameras is a lot of fun! and easier than I imagined!.

 

Would I have waited for the D300 knowing what I know now? No, I would have got the s5pro sooner. Its HighDR is still UNMATCHED. I love the High DR. The skin tones are fabulous. Its highly underrated for nature photography, I find the High DR works wonders in harsh lightings when you cant dial up a cloud..

 

Will I be getting the D300? Maybe. to replace the D70. but will probably wait for the D90

 

I would love the D3 but I would rather spend on nice Glass. and wait for the D300FX in a years time.

 

Oh one more thing... Consider using your SB800 flash off camera. You can use the built in pop up flash to command the SB800 wirelessly.

 

Good luck with your NAS.

Thank you all for your good suggestions. Just to give you a hunch of what the action is like, you have to visualize the floor, approx. the size of an ice hockey ring, maybe smaller. In this ring, you take about 20 teenagers, who *at the same time* has just one minute to do their dance, which consists of running steps, split jumps, kicks and lots of other movements with fast disco music. They all move at the same time, though, in their own speed, their own dance program, and their own direction, trying not to collide. (Imagine trying to be one of the 5 judges, giving each dancer a close look, and voting some of the dancers out and some in)

 

This implies that a lot of pictures are wasted because an arm or a leg is coming into the frame, just as you press the release button (Hey, that girl was 12 feet away nanoseconds ago!). Unless you have studied the dance of one of the girls, there is absolutely no way of knowing what movement she will do next, so a lot of capturing is to press the release and hope for the best. There is no way of knowing who is doing what and where they are doing it. These girls move FAST!

 

I have given this some thought, and there is no time to change lenses. (Remember that the performance is only 60 sec.) Either you have 2 camera bodies or 1 body with the suitable zoom lens.

 

 

@Peter: These competitions take place every month. I have also taken some video. We all enjoy that in our family 2 or 3 times a year, but even the video needs to be properly cut and produced, and that takes time. And, after showing the video from an event a few times, it is just lying there unseen. So, my daughter fully agrees that still photos are OK. (Lucky me ;) )

 

thank you for the tip of using gel on the flash head. I will also try to make my wife my assistant ( wish me luck....), hand holding the SB-800, and using the camera flash as the commander flash.

 

@Tze: I did not think of the S5 - that option needs further evaluation. thanx.

Per-Christian,

 

60 seconds is pretty fast, I would have guessed about 2-3 minutes. Yes, lens switching is not a viable option. And if they move totally random as you say I think nothing less than a pro body D2 series or D3 with corresponding AF-S pro lenses (17-35/17-55/70-200 etc) can keep up with AF. Maybe a D300 too but who knows until it's out?

 

You would still need to use AF-On to track focus because if someone runs in front of them the focus will be racked to person in front and you don't want that because it means you'll loose time when your daughter is visible again.

 

I think you should avoid the CLS wireless flash. The delay is pretty significant from shutter press to image, especially if you run the flash in TTL. Try getting a pair of cheap ebay radio triggers, I hear they seems to work ok at close distances. Pocket wizards are the gold standard but pricey.

 

Peter

I am not sure about other applications, but for dancing, video is likely the better medium. The ability to show action with sound/music is more interesting for most people.

"However, I am not quite satisfied, without knowing excactly why..."

 

Ditto regarding the use of video capture. The emotional impact of viewing video will far exceed that of the still image of your daughter dancing. Why not do both until you are convinced? Surely, someone in your extended family has a camera you can borrow.

The real key here is to anticipate the action and have predetermined what shots you want to get. Speaking from the point of view of having become the 'unofficial videographer' when my daughter was in dance years ago, it takes wathing the routine tens of times - although it seems like hundreds. Once you have it in your mind, focus on one or two elements per dance routine and build up the collection over time. You might want to videotape a practice routine and review it many times to plan out your shots.

 

The obvious downside is that you will have the song in your head always, even in your dreams. ;-)

 

As far as gym lighting goes, you are stuck and will most likely need to go to higher ISO. If the 1.8 isn't satisfactory, I don't see how going to a 2.8 will improve things. You'll also need the burst mode. Flashes typically are not allowed at the competitions as it has the potential to distract the dancers.

 

Jay

while the faster fps rate of the d300 would help to capture the action, i dont think it completely remedies your situation. you have some nice primes, but shooting fast changing, multiple angle action with a prime is hard unless you pick one spot and shoot everything that comes into it. a 30/50/85 lineup would be sweet for extreme low-light, but not if you need to change lenses in a short period of time.

 

what you need is a faster zoom. the 18-70 is cool, but not having a constant aperture makes it harder to get usable shutter speeds on the long end.

 

if you're looking at the 17-55, consider the tamron twins: 17-50 and 28-75. each is well suited for capturing action but will dent your pocketbook far less than the 17-55.

 

try this: look at your shots with the 18-70 and see what focal length most were taken at. if most are on the short end, get the 17-50. if you take a lot of shots between 50-70mm and can live with the 28mm (43.3 equiv) starting point, get the 28-75.

 

another tip about shooting dance is that dancers sync their movements to the beat. often a flourish will come in time with the snare. if you know this is coming, you can prepare to fire your shutter on-beat, or pop off a burst just ahead of the beat. this could improve your keeper rate.

Well, I think you really need to figure out what you don't like about your existing photos. The fact that you can use the flash at ISO200 means that you've got enough flash power for what you're shooting. So the question is, what don't you like about those shots?

 

BTW, the ISO3200 results from the D300 look very good. If you had that, you'd be able to shoot at around 1/120 instead of 1/60 for ambient lit shots. Perhaps even ISO6400 if you don't mind noise similar to your D70 @ ISO1600.

 

larsbc

are you sure you're not getting the d3 and d300 confused?

the d3 test shots i've seen have handled iso 3200 much better than the d300, which looks like a one-stop improvement over d80/d200.