dd23 and split development etc.

Discussion in 'Black and White' started by riton_mhilli, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. Hello all.Need your help.I'm going to photograph interiors (out of
    work,conserved, prison).I,m planning to use divided d23,but I'm thinking also
    to use normal developer and alkali after bath.I want to know that is there any
    film speed increase using this method and how much.I have in stock also
    perceptol,rodinal,a49,atomalFF,D76,BW pyro kit made in Italy by
    BWORK,DD23,Hyperfin,AND a lot of alkali to use as afterbath.I have also
    125px,tri-x 320,fortepan 100,fomapan t 200 creative,tmax 100,tmax 400 new,efke
    r 25 and use th trpod also.Please what do you think about the idea to use
    divided development or alkali afterbath.Can you suggest me the best combo,film
    developer you think, between these materails I own
    Thanks a lot.
     
  2. http://blogs.salon.com/0004217/2004/11/20.html

    The above is one that works well.

    I also used one that was basically D23 for 3 min, calcium carbonate bath two for three min.

    Both will supress grain and highlights. The problem with the technique is highlight portion of the curve is flatter resulting in highlights with less detail

    There is no film speed increase. If anything, add 1/2 stop.

    Here is the really bad news. Modern films have thinner emulsions that do not hold so much bath A. I have added increased metol in the D23 and it helps, but i still can`t get what I did decades ago.

    Run some tests with + exposure (1 to 2 stops) and minus development ( - 20-40%) and you will do as well.

    There also ways to bleach the film before development and highlights are cut without loosing shadows.

    See this on APUG and Google for more SLMT bleaching. I you bother to set this up, it is the best method other than controling the lighting at the time of exposure.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-14666.html
     
  3. What Ronald says about todays thinner emulsion is correct. If you wish to use a divided dev or an after bath, do test rolls before you commit to something serious.
     
  4. Ronald

    CALCIUM CARBONATE?!?!? Isn't that marble and insoluble? Do you not mean Sodium Carbonate.

    I use Kodalk or Sodium metaborate. A box of 20 Mule Team lasts forever.
     
  5. This is something which might be good for Diafine or Emofin. I think that with ACROS you need 5 minutes each in A and B with Diafine instead of 3 becuase of the thin emulsion.
     
  6. hi,
    since your refering to dd23 i'll assume your mixing this from scratch. even with today's thinner films 6.5g to the litre of metol gives you great result ( combined with 80g / litre of sodium sulfite ). i've got an A bath with only 35g/l of sodium sulfite ( designed to be used with a B bath of 12g/L sodium carbonate ) and i've succesfully used it with 12g/L sodium metaborate ( time in B bath is about 10 min as opposed to the usual 3-4min.) thornton's book 'edge of darkness' is a great reference on 2 bath development - he addresses the issue of thinner emulsions simply by slightly increasing the metol. here's a link: http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Using-two-bath-developers


    hope this helps
     
  7. "Here is the really bad news. Modern films have thinner emulsions that do not hold so much bath A. I have added increased metol in the D23 and it helps, but i still can`t get what I did decades ago."

    Maybe. But you can adjust the time in bath A to get more contrast if you like, since bath A of D-23, St�ckler, and Emofin will develop film all by itself. I just developed two rolls of FP4+ in a developer of 6.5g Metol and 50g sulfite with a 12 g/l borax bath B. The first roll, exposed at 125 ASA was developed for 5 minutes in bath A and 5 minutes in bath B. Negatives are maybe a little thin and flat. The second roll was exposed at 200 ASA and developed for 7.5 minutes in bath A, 5 minutes in bath B. More contrast and better shadow detail. Also a bit more grain, naturally.
     
  8. Stop doing it the hard way, buy a unit of Diafine. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between this and these untimate complications.

    The purpose of all of these is to maximize the shadow and lower middle tones without over emphasizing the highlights.

    Lynn
     
  9. diafine and metol - metaborate are miles apart.

    yes, if your interested in doing the comparison, shoot two identical rolls use the same bath A and mix up i) bath B sodium metaborate 12g/L and ii) bath B sodium carbonate 50g/L and see the difference.


    i assumed that by choosing dd23 the person who posed the question was interested in tonality/fine grain and sharpness at the expense of a little speed.
     
  10. Diafine has metol in it.

    In all of these questions there must be a specific quality desired with a specific film. Since I go back 60 years in the business, every couple of years is a different world for me, even to the point when I want a "medium speed" high resolution film, I have three choices, TMX, D100, and Acros 100. When developed to the same Rodinal normalcy (in my case GBar 50) TMX is 80, D100 is 64, Acros is 100. These have Z5 net densities of .70, but they have somewhat different looks. TMX will start to have some visibal grain at over 20X, D100 at 16x to 18X, Acros at about 18X to 20X. Further, I pay no attention to the manufacturers QC recommendations, their films are tested under "sterile" conditions, no lenses, no cameras. I test with a Nikon RF or Nikon SLR in 35mm or in MF with either a Mamiya TLR or a Rollei SL66. Remember, the last films that had a truly straight line characteristic mid curve were SuperXX and Sakura Pan. In modern films the curve "bellies" are either up or down between Z2 and Z8 and they vary, which changes mid tones as well as film speed.

    When I'm not sure of my circumstances the choice is Plus X Pan in full strength D76 (ASA 160) which has critical sharpness and no grain 'til you pass 20X.

    Lynn
     
  11. it may have metol but i'll put money that it's the phenidone-hydroquinone combo that gives the speed increase in diafine.

    for speed increase diafine is a good way to go ( fx4 is great as a two bath ).
     
  12. What is the intent in reducing the concentration of alkali in bath B?
     
  13. Noticed the posting date of May 11, 2008?
    "gonzalo_echeverria was last seen: Mar 14, 2014"

    At a guess - the weaker alkali might be intended to reduce grain, but who knows what Gonzalo's purpose was?
     
  14. Reminds me, I have wondered about using a stronger Diafine A to go with thinner films.

    50 years ago, Diafine claimed to optimally develop all films, presumably
    films available at the time.

    But is it still optimal for today's films?
     
  15. There is a good article written about D23 by Derek Watkins for single bath and two-bath use.

    D-23
     
  16. Ah, good old Derek.
    About the only writer for the more populist photo magazines that knew what he was talking about and didn't kow-tow to whatever advertisers were currently funding the articles.
     

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