Daylight transparency

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by bitphotospace, Jul 25, 2021.

  1. I think there is confusion in the word "detail". Moire affects identically repeating patterns and can prevent good visualization of detail in those repeating patterns (suspension bridge wires, some architectural elements, fabrics) but random fine detail such as is usually found in nature will be fine and will not require an anti-aliasing filter. So I think the blanket statement of sharper more detailed images is too simple, especially as many (most?) mirrorless cameras no longer have anti-aliasing filters. Moire is much less of a problem for most images as sensor resolution has increased and simple software solutions are available if it occurs, so I do think that the X-trans sensor's raison d'etre is not all that strong these days.
    bitphotospace likes this.
  2. Would you pls. elaborate? You’re not suggesting moiré occurs as a function of over exposure - are you?
  3. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    I told you earlier the ideal way to test moiré and no, clipping highlights that might contain moiré and other image data isn't a useful 'technique' in evaluating anything in the image.
  4. Its never been in fact strong nor true for that matter - see the massive false colour in the fabric (particularly the collar) at base iso xtrans is capable of generating once you extract "near trure" sensor output (left image - I used irident which I suspect deploys merksteijn demosaicing algorithm - comparable results can be obtained in RT). see how the camera engine renders (oh I swear by their colous!) the JPEG - dead almost cartoonish reconstruction hiding the false colour anomalies (mid image) - oh so much for the sharper, more detailed images rivaling full-frame chips etc. Even ACR struggles not to mention worms once you jack up sharpness a tiny bit (right image).

    Like countless others, I have invested in this system (not much thankfully as I quickly spotted the trick) and so called reputable internet gear experts are partly to blame but I am still puzzled by the whole affair.

    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  5. what you say is true - but as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread - tis never that simple. regardless, many thanks for taking the time -

  6. X-Trans is a modified Bayer array, not random in any sense. Traditional 2x2 Bayer arrays of R, 2G and B pixels are arranged in blocks of 4 which each 2x2 is rotated 90 degrees. Foveon sensors are arguably the best solution to color aliasing, with R, G, and B sensors stacked in a single pixel, but at the expense of sensitivity and spacial resolution.

    Pixel-shift imaging is probably the most effect way to reduce aliasing and Moire. It doesn't eliminate either, but renders the effects to a minute scale, if not below the resolution of the lens.
    bitphotospace and digitaldog like this.
  7. oh yeah? what about this piece of literature then ;)

  8. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Nothing you show above from Fuji dismisses what Ed provided above. X-Trans is a modified Bayer array.
  9. I am in fact in full agreement with Ed - the array should be described as comparatively "heterogeneous" if you were to consider the Bayer setup. both random and "moiré resistant" are marketing hypes perpetrated by gear review sites - talk about accountability!
  10. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Yes, there is a degree of marking hype. If you insist on going to a Fuji site composed of marketing, that's what you'll get.
    None the less, the sensor isn't 'the same/identical' as Ed and Fuji point out.
    You do realize that if Fuji on this site stated their sensor was comparatively "heterogeneous", many reader's heads would explode and the goal of the site would be ruined.
    What underlined (by you?) in that screen capture isn't accurate expect the bit about moiré which as yet, has had no ideal and controlled testing to prove or disprove?
    Is there any product you have purchased recently where there is zero marketing hype?
  11. If you look closely in the example above, you see that the "random" array consists of 3x3 blocks of pixels with G corners and center, R on opposite sides and B on alternate opposite sides. Adjacent 3x3 blocks are rotated 90 degrees, ad infinitum.
    digitaldog likes this.
  12. I found out recently that Tupperware has never made a single commercial ad. Now, of course, the Earl of Tupper’s idea of home parties is a kind of hype in itself, but stands apart in terms of what we generally expect. One of the great ironies of life is that Mattel can hype its toys from today until tomorrow and many kids would much prefer to have hours of fun with their mom’s Tupperware!

    Krispy Kreme is another company that uses zero paid advertising, though they do use “free” social media. There’s one not far from my house which I avoid, though, because their donuts taste more like air than any sort of cake!

  13. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Not a single commercial
    Tupperware ad or maybe none after you were born or none you know of? ;)

    What is this: easily found using “the google machine”:
    Tupperware: A blast from the past
    A Tupperware ad: "What dreams are made of." NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

    No Krispy Kreme ads, zero paid advertising?
    Krispy Kreme reignites UK push with new outdoor ads
    Krispy Kreme's outdoor ads have previously been restricted to London, targeting office workers by displaying ads at train stations and on the Underground, but the brand is now extending its advertising regionally.

    So the these outdoor ads were free?

    I tried them once, never again no matter the actual advertising. I thought they were awful.

    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  14. I got my info from a different room of the same google machine you got yours.

    6 Top Brands Which Don't Advertise Much & Are Still Ridiculously Famous

    It looks like the Tupperware ad was made by Tupperware Home Parties, Inc. (which may have been a separate entity from Tupperware—you’re of course welcome to research this further if precision is important to you on what I simply considered a lark) and was for the parties, which I said was their marketing device.

    But, it may very well be that the site I used didn’t provide accurate info. So sorry for the misinformation and much appreciate the correction. Score yet another for DD, the Olympian of PN rightness.
  15. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    A broken clock is right, twice a day. Which do you suspect is correct.... now?
    Did you examine your reference: About Us - Marketing Mind
    Mine: CBS news, National Museum of American History: and an actual Tupperware ad!
    Did you read my outside reference? It's all explained there, same company.
    And no, you didn't say that, nice try. You said, exactly, copy and paste (again): "I found out recently that Tupperware has never made a single commercial ad".

    The assumptions about Krispy Kreme having NO ads seems equally bogus. How do you feel about micro-tracking devices in Covid-19 vaccines? :(

    What is important to me is indeed precision in facts, proof of concept, science and dismissing both the big and little lies seen daily on the web.
    Preferable to some than Olympian of PN wrongness. :confused: More than enough of that to go around....
    Begging the question back at you:
    When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?” John Maynard Keynes
    Maybe it is time to get back OT with the facts after that post #32? It didn't answer the question in post #31:
    Is there any product you have purchased recently where there is zero marketing hype?
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  16. I really don’t care. Like I said, it was a lark.
    I have a hard time imagining the eccentric psychology behind asking such a bizarre question based on the mistake I made.

    “The Sophistes of Grece coulde through their copiousness make an Elephant of a flye, and a mountaine of a mollehill.” —The first tome or volume of the Paraphrase of Erasmus upon the newe testamente

    On this note, I will, with a smile of relief, put you on ignore so we don’t cross paths again.
    bitphotospace likes this.
  17. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    samstevens translation: "Lark" equals an off topic post that is factually wrong which gets called out. Got it.
    Progress: Admitting mistakes. It is how we all learn (or should). I make plenty of them, all the time. When I find that indeed it is a mistake (factually wrong), I learn and attempt to move forward; maybe you can (will too) Sam. But you brought this all up, you got it wrong, you went OT.
    If being corrected is a burden, maybe consider fact checking before hitting "Post Reply".
    Or far better:
    The great thing about being ignored is that you can speak the truth with impunity.– Steve Aylett
    That's excellent, don't let that big door hit you on the way out Sam. Hope that means you'll ignore this forum; I'm super happy with that decision of yours.

    As for the ignore list (akin to ignorance is bliss):
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” ― Aldous Huxley
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
    Ed_Ingold likes this.
  18. I dislike sophistry, down to the last detail.
  19. Pharmaceutical companies long abjured from advertising ethical drugs to the public. Their strategy was to convince doctors of their efficacy (called "detail work"), and the doctors would use their judgement to recommend and prescribe to patients. My how that has changed.

    (The sales force was highly trained in the indications and pharmacology of the drugs they "detailed" and that of their competitors.)
    digitaldog likes this.
  20. You confuse marketing with marketing hype (or deliberate misinformation in certain cases) - these are not the same.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021

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