D850 / Amazon Update

Amazon just changed their anticipated ship date for the D850 from 10/31 to early January through February. Looks like it still going to be a while!

Back in 2012, Nikon started shipping the D800 in March and the D800E about a month later in April. I waited for the early reviews for the D800E and determined that without the effect of a low-pass filter wasn't a concern, before I ordered one at my local store in mid April. It took two months before I got mine in mid June.

 

Back then I thought the D800 initial shortage was pretty serious, especially the D800E since it was only 10% of the total D800 production. I find it hard to believe that the D850 shortage is worse.

 

For those who want a D850 quickly, I would check with the smaller stores. Who knows how many people have placed multiple orders with Amazon, B&H, Adorama ... and expect just one from whichever is the fastest? There is going to be massive cancellations later on.

Thanks Shun! Talked to a local camera store in Houston yesterday. They said they are getting about 5 in at a time but they never know when they are going to arrive. They have 2 waiting lists. One with $500 deposits which includes about 30 names at the moment. Another without deposits that is much longer.

Amazon just changed their anticipated ship date for the D850 from 10/31 to early January through February. Looks like it still going to be a while!

 

Has anyone tried ordering it direct from Nikon? I only get 'dear John' letters from B&H and I ordered it in August.

NikonUSA shows the D850 as "backordered". I suspect they will remain in backordered status until all their major authorized sellers have been supplied; much the same as Nikon will never price below the MSRP and undercut their authorized retailers.

A week after I received a notification from Amazon that the 850 would not be available until Jan or Feb of next year, I got a message from AMEX that my card had been debited by Amazon. I then got another Amazon message stating my D850 was shipping and would arrive in 2 days. Have had it 2 weeks now and couldn’t be happier! Not sure what happened but I am grateful!

Well...in my part of the world (Europe) D850 was never out of stock or even limited stock :-) Maybe the +1100 $ price difference would be the reason !?

In Finland there seem to be long waiting lists still.

The D850 shortage seems to be worse than that for the D800/D800E 5 years ago. Back then I waited 2 months for the D800E and I thought that was unusual. I didn't expect such serious shortage for the D850.

 

Nikon probably should have set the initial price to $4000 instead.

Nikon probably should have set the initial price to $4000 instead.

 

I, for one, am glad they didn't. My original ship date from Amazon was early November. Then it got bumped to mid-December. I started looking around for someplace else that might be able to ship it faster, and placed a second order. Then, a few weeks ago, Amazon moved my date forward again. It unexpectedly shipped ahead of even that new date and I received it about two weeks ago. I was a D800e shooter before, and the D850 feels pretty much at home in my hand. It's a little bit blockier and maybe a touch heavier, but most of the controls are in the same places and I've had no problem adjusting for what little has changed. Mostly, the stuff that changed is not the stuff you worry about while shooting. The larger touch screen is nice. I wish I could tell you the XQD cards were great, but I'm still waiting. 128Gb and above are super hard to find right now, so I'm just shooting to SD.

 

The pictures from it are pretty amazing. SO MANY PIXELS. It feels like the new RAW format the D850 uses captures more information. I had a shot where the strobes didn't fire in a dark room with almost no ambient light, and I was able to pull a halfway decent image out of it. Bonkers. It must have been 10 stops underexposed at least. The shot won't win any awards, but it's decent.

 

Because they use a new RAW format in the D850, not all software recognizes it yet. All of Adobe's stuff does, of course, but you have to be on the most current version. Affinity Photo, which I like to use sometime to edit photos on my iPad, still does not recognize the new RAW format. Also, because the images are so big, my first generation iPad Pro struggles a bit when doing editing of any complexity with multiple layers.

 

The waiting was tough, but it was every bit worth the wait once it got here. It completely lives up to the hype. What few complaints I had about the 800e are completely gone with the D850 and there's a bunch of stuff I wouldn't have even thought to ask for. Hang in there!

The D800E took look enough to appear that I got to learn about the D800's AF issue, which was nice (and it helps to be in the UK, where the trickle of devices meant the US could be beta testers). I deliberately waited a bit with the D810, which gave the white spot issue time to show. I'm still curious to know about the speckling reported by DPReview, but with the possible exception of "the AF isn't absolutely as solid as the D5", so far there don't seem to be many horror stories. The current availability issue is mostly giving me an excuse not to spend money I don't have, so there's that - though I'm losing confidence in the January sales making a dent in the UK prices.

 

Jeff: Thanks for sharing your impressions; I'm glad you're happy. I'm a little surprised the D850's resolution was giving your iPad significantly more trouble than the D800e, but I guess the boundary has to lie somewhere.

 

Having spent at least a year promising to do it by now, I'll definitely do that write-up/survey of wanted camera features soon (even Hypnoken's review has a request), so I don't think we're short of things for Nikon to spring on us. I don't really have much to complain about with the hardware, though - except that I notice the battery grip doesn't have replicated Fn1 and Pv buttons. Shame it doesn't claim to hit 9fps on AAs - I had (technically, have) a third-party grip for the D700 mostly so I could hit full frame rate, but since I very rarely want to do so, I'd rather burn some AAs than pay for the big Nikon battery.

That doesn't sound like a "horror story" to me. It is reported by several sources that 3D tracking in the D850 isn't quite as good as in the D5. But, for example, in cameralabs.com tests, the reviewer used the D850 (with grip and EN-EL18b apparently) to shoot indoor cycling and reports similar results as with D5 up to iso 6400.

 

Nikon D850 review - Cameralabs

 

That doesn't sound too bad. I don't know how much of the success is attributable to the higher-voltage battery used. No reviews that I've seen so far have studied the effect of using the EN-EL18 series battery on the AF performance in detail.

Edited November 21, 2017 by ilkka_nissila

I ordered a D850 body from Amazon on Aug 26 and received it on September 26. I am sorry to hear that others have had to wait so much longer. Just want to say that this camera is exceptional in the photos it produces. Dynamic range, focus, everything is better in my hands with this camera than with my D810. I shoot under a very wide range of lighting conditions and have never been disappointed with the output. The Live View interface is so much better and I find that the movable screen is a welcome improvement when shooting in Live View. The camera just feels right in my hands - the improved shape of the body, providing better grip for the right hand probably explains that. I am still not used to the new ISO button, but presumably that won't last. On the negative side I found that some of the button assignations were less than intuitive. For example, to display the meter on the Live View screen you have to press the OK button. Why? However, this is a camera I have rapidly come to love, in spite of certain Nikon eccentricities. Worth the wait.

If it works the same on the D850 as it does on the D810, the OK button switches between LV autogain exposure and exposure simulation modes (so the meter scale is shown in the latter mode only). In the D810 the camera remembers which mode was used last time. On the D850, do you have to press OK every time to access the exposure simulation mode in LV? Edited November 22, 2017 by ilkka_nissila

"Nikon probably should have set the initial price to $4000 instead."

 

Ah, but they did in Europe! And didn't stop at 4000.

 

Current UK asking price is £3,800, which at current exchange rates is $5034 US.

Small wonder that fewer people in Europe are ordering one.

 

Get real Nikon! In a global market this sort of regional rip off is unacceptable. Nobody really needs your latest bauble. The price has to be reasonably tempting.... and it's just not.

 

"Dynamic range......is better.."

 

- How are you measuring that? Because my guess is that it's simply due to a change in tone curve, and could be emulated on the D810.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rodeo_joe|1

Current UK asking price is £3,800

 

WEx and Park quote £3,499 - Park have the version with the grip at £3799, is that what you're thinking of? Admittedly I might want the grip for once (since you don't end up cropping to get the frame rate unlike the D800 and D810), although the £220 battery tax is quite painful, especially if they're only $150 stateside. "Have" is relative, of course - not generally in stock. Obviously "only" £3500 makes it a complete bargain. (I'll still probably get one, but I would like to see a price drop, and it at least extends how long I'm saving up. I'm not expecting my D810 trade-in to make much of a dent.)

 

The A7RIII is listed as £3200 at WEx, and similarly unavailable, and the 5DIV is slightly more than that (and older, and behind the D850 on most measures, although it's a perfectly decent camera); the 5DS R is £3150. So, especially in a recent release, I don't think £3500 is so extraordinary. IIRC the D800E and D810 were both over £3000 at launch, and that was before Brexit broke the exchange rate (although we seem to have recovered a little from the time "hard Brexit" broke it again). Ah, happy days when the exchange rate was $2:£1 and I could afford lenses...

 

That said, the D750 is looking awfully affordable these days. You have to be quite dedicated to feel a D8x0 series is worth the premium. I'm expecting either or both of the D610 and D750 to get a replacement sooner rather than later (especially with the 6D2 launch), so that's probably not a surprise.

 

"Dynamic range......is better.."

- How are you measuring that? Because my guess is that it's simply due to a change in tone curve, and could be emulated on the D810.

 

DxO do seem to see a dynamic range advantage of about a stop from about ISO 400 (which I believe is where various people reckon the second amplifier setting kicks in). Since base ISO doesn't appear to be worse, I'm happy with whatever I can get in terms of improvements at higher ISOs. I agree that possible tone curve and colour balance differences make it a little difficult to compare, though - I'm unlikely ever to have them side by side. It's a shame Nikon didn't quite manage to match the high ISO performance of the A7R2 and A7R3, although the latter seem to be doing some noise reduction that makes them awkward for astrophotography. I'm way more interested in the better AF, so long as nothing else got worse compared with the D810. Speaking of...

 

That doesn't sound like a "horror story" to me. It is reported by several sources that 3D tracking in the D850 isn't quite as good as in the D5.

 

Yes, by "horror story" I really meant "the only thing people have found to complain about" - and I'll absolutely take "the second best AF on the planet" under the circumstances (as with the D700). So long as it's a little more reliable than the D810, I'm going to be happy. (Oh, and people are complaining about Snapbridge. But I have absolutely no intention of using it, and have an EyeFi - which can transfer raw - if I want that kind of thing, so meh.)

 

Thanks for the link to the Cameralabs review. The difference in AF performance between the D850 and D5 was always likely to be fairly slight, and the D5 has the faster (and louder?) mirror system advantage - but if the grip speeds up the mirror action, I'm prepared to believe it'll give the AF system more to work with. (Aside: I wonder whether the AF system gets any useful information while the mirror is moving but at the open end of its travel? There's probably a project in that, if the difference is predictable.) I'm highly unlikely to be disappointed by the D850's autofocus (though I'm not expecting perfection - the hired D500 certainly wasn't perfect for me), but knowing for sure whether the battery grip improves it would be useful to know, and make me more willing to pony up.

I meant to say... does anyone else find it funny that Nikon are doing the D850 with a 24-120 kit - or at least, that's such an important thing that the 24-120 manual got embedded in the D850 manual? It's an okay piece of glass, but it's certainly not optically a bit limited even at D810 resolution - it seems an odd thing to buy alongside a.D850.

 

Maybe Nikon are just trying to ditch them because they're thinking of an update? I realise that lens has been in kits for a long time - but so was the variable aperture version (with the D700), and I have to assume Nikon really were trying to clear out their stock of those.

Maybe Nikon are just trying to ditch them because they're thinking of an update?

A better way than bundling it with cameras would be to permanently reduce the price to about half its current selling price of about $1100. My local store seems to always have at least one of those kit lenses separated out in their used display case, offered at around $750. (On a similar note: I wonder how many 16-80 lenses are sold alone, outside the D500 and D7500 kits. Last time I checked my local store revealed that not one has been sold unless it was in a kit).

 

I think the 24-120 is definitely up for a refresh. And I hope this time Nikon will put some real effort into it. I haven't seen reviews on the new Sony FE 24-105/4 yet - but at that price it better be good (though price isn't necessarily a reflection of quality especially in the Sony/Zeiss camp as the quite expensive and rather mediocre 24-70/4 shows).

 

It's an okay piece of glass, but it's certainly not optically a bit limited even at D810 resolution

At least they don't bundle the camera with the 28-300. I am surprised how many people use that lens on a D8x0 body; seems such a waste to me.

 

 

D850 with a 24-120 kit

I might be mistaken in believing that the 24-120 as a kit lens is a more recent thing, dating back to the introduction of the D600? I can't recall ever having seen a D700/24-120/3.5-5.6 VR kit (I made the mistake of purchasing that particular lens (used, for use on a film camera) and can attest how poor it performs on anything digital, DX or FX).

I'm pretty sure Nikon started bundling the 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 with the D700 later in its life - possibly after the f/4 became available. I have to assume Nikon had stocks. I vaguely remember going into a camera store in London with my D700 and having the store owner ask why I had the 28-200 on it. Because I wanted the camera to look cheap and because, stopped down a little, it was actually not bad, especially at the wider end, on a D700 (though not so much on the D8x0 series) - and because I couldn't be bothered to carry my 14-24. He tried to sell me the variable aperture 24-120, which is twice the price and at some lengths worse (especially near the centre of the frame). I took my 28-200 on holiday with me shortly after I got my D800E, and ended up using my 90mm Tamron instead most of the time.

 

The 28-300 mystifies me a bit as well. Technically you have an equivalent aperture advantage at 300mm compared with using a better f/5.6 lens at 150mm and cropping, but it's a lot of money for not very much performance, as I understand it - except, I suppose, you get "pre-cropped" out-of-camera images.

 

I don't really mind Nikon doing bundles (not that I got my 24-120 on the cheap - I was rushing before Brexit hurt the prices) but going so far as to put the instructions for one particular slightly iffy lens combination in the user guide. The 24-120 gets used as an example in the D810 manual, but it's not specifically called out as a kit.

"Park have the version with the grip at £3799, is that what you're thinking of?"

 

- Yes, I just did a quick Google search to see what the current price was, and saw that Jessops were asking £3800. I didn't notice it was the +grip offer.

 

Even so, the £3500 body only asking price is still $4659 US. Not an insignificant markup for a short trip over the Atlantic!

 

Anyhow. I think I'm through with being a dedicated Nikon user. I was expecting something better, or at least different in Nikon's centenary year. A sniff of a pro level MLC at least. The D850 is just more of the same old same old as far as I'm concerned. Faster AF I don't need. More accurate and reliable AF - straight out of the box, with any lens and without 'fine-tuning' (I.e. doing Nikon's job of adjusting their AF sensor properly) would be a step in the right direction. Having more AF points means nothing if they're out of whack with the sensor plane. And having more pixels just reveals AF errors more clearly.

 

So Nikon have to shift the perceived USP of this camera away from basic stuff like accurate AF and onto non-issues like 'dynamic range' - and without even taking the obvious step of increasing A/D bit depth.

the £3500 body only asking price is still $4659 US

if you subtract the VAT, it comes down to some $3700. If I were to purchase a D850 locally, I'd pay 7.75% sales tax for a total of about $3550 - so the main culprit in the price differential is the sales tax (and I would assume that the remainder is due to currency exchange rate differences). If I take Germany as an example, with 19%VAT, the D850 price sans sales tax is about $3650. Of course, neither in the UK or Germany can I do what is possible here in the US - order from B&H or adorama and pay no sales tax whatsoever (even though in my state I should pay the "use tax" when I do the annual tax return). Naturally, this sort of calculation can't hide the fact that people in the UK and Germany pay 20%+ more for a D850 than the lowest possible price in the US (with most of that extra going to the government and not to Nikon).

 

I think I'm through with being a dedicated Nikon user.

Seems I cannot deny that this describes me too. I got drawn into the Sony mirrorless system that had nothing to do at all with any dissatisfaction with Nikon but was prompted by the desire to use some inherited Leica M-mount lenses on something digital that didn't have a red dot and associated price tag. That experiment ended with me abandoning the M-mount lenses altogether and acquiring some native Sony FE lenses to complement my Nikon DSLR system. While I am not ready yet to let go of Nikon completely, if I had to purchase a camera body right now (no intention at this time), I would most likely opt for the Sony A7R III over the Nikon D850, in particular if the new Sony FE 24-105 indeed turns out to be as good as initial report claim it is. That would give me a chance to assemble a three-lens travel/hiking kit that's substantially smaller and lighter than my current Nikon equipment without being in any way limiting or inferior; the decision would almost entirely be driven by lens choices rather than camera specs: Nikon's 14-24/2.8 or Sigma's 12-24/4 are substantially larger and heavier than the Sony 12-24/4. Unless the initial reports on the Sony 24-105 turn out to be overly optimistic, it will surpass Nikon's 24-120 or Sigma's 24-105. The Sony FE 70-200/4 is at par with Nikon's offering but I would very likely trade it and the Nikon AF-S 80-400 for the new Sony FE 100-400 (which from all I've read is better optically). I would retain NIkon D810 for use with prime lenses and Nikon D500 for reach with the 200-500.

 

The D850 is just more of the same old same old as far as I'm concerned.

Evolutionary, but nothing revolutionary (OK, 7/9 fps for a 46MP camera is a huge step forward).

"...if you subtract the VAT, it comes down to some $3700."

 

- $3881 actually Dieter, but I accept the point that a lot (not all) of the differential is due to low purchase tax rates in the US.

 

Whatever. I don't find either the specification or price at all attractive.

$3881 actually Dieter

Indeed, should teach me to ballpark these calculations in my head:(

 

 

I don't find either the specification or price at all attractive.

It's good to know that should I have the need to replace my D810 that there is a camera with good specs waiting for me down to road to be picked up for a more reasonable price used.

The A7RIII does show Sony are fixing some of their historical issues and listening to their customers. Nikon should pay attention to relatively dedicated users on these fora who are considering switching.

 

I'm not there yet. The A7RIII still apparently stops interacting somewhat when flushing its buffer (shades of the D800 in live view), though much less so than the mk2. On-sensor phase detect AF still has some disadvantages compared with a dedicated AF sensor for subject tracking - though Canon has shown you can do both, and I wouldn't turn down a "contrast detect fine tune" mode during normal shooting. Supposedly the A7RIII does a final contrast detect check in single shot mode, which shows it down but increases accuracy - I'm not sure the AF is all that magic without it, although they certainly have a coverage advantage (and apparently better eye tracking) compared with a mirror system.

 

The D850 at ISO64 still has a small advantage over the A7RIII at ISO100 - though the tweak to reduce read now has worked well on the Sony, and that sensor works better at high ISO than the D850. If the rumours are correct that Sony wanted Nikon to use the A7RII/III sensor but Nikon wanted their own, I hope the benefits (ISO 64 and full frame 4K?) were worth it compared to the lack of PDOS and higher ISO performance.

 

I'm a bit envious of the sensor shift resolution bump mode (even if it's slow on the Sony). Yes, sensor shift VR makes the sensor a little more delicate for cleaning, but it's pretty beneficial. The Sony looks to have better connectivity, too.

 

There are some Sony things putting me off. I still mostly prefer an optical finder (though I maintain hybrid should be possible). DSLR battery life is still better - though I don't know how much of the D850's jump relative to the D810 was losing the flash (IIRC standard numbers assume some flash use). The memory card choices on the Sony look much more restrictive. Sony are (expensively) building their lens set, but aren't quite there, and adapted lenses are compromised. So I'd sooner a D850 than an A7RIII - but maybe not an A7RIV. Allowing for decent lenses, body size makes no difference to me (unfortunately for my health) - it's features and image quality I care about.

 

A Canon shooting friend is thinking of jumping system, to a high end body (he's not interested in my D810 used). With the current range I wouldn't touch Canon, but I'm going to tell him to check Sony before going Nikon. That wasn't the case not long ago.

 

Unfortunately I doubt Nikon management are looking past the D850 selling as fast as it can be made to see the danger. But maybe I'm wrong.

I previously made the expensive mistake of jumping ship to Canon when Nikon, apparently, showed no intention of producing an affordable full-frame body. Then along comes the brilliant D700 to completely eclipse the 5D - well, apart from the crappy overexposing metering on the D700.

 

So it's not without reservation that I'll jump ship again, but Nikon's future lineup isn't looking very exciting or attractive right now.

 

If Nikon do have an MLC in development, then they'd do well to advertise the fact. Before every other camera company on the planet entices their customers away. I mean, if even Hasselblad thinks that MLCs are the future....