D7200 or D7500?

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by mark_stephan|2, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. AG
    With the tiny gyros that they have in RC quad-copters, then can put a gyro or better yet an accelerometer into the camera to detect movement and rate of movement.
    I've not been able to figure out how they can miniturize a gyroscope to fit onto a PC board in a small RC copter.
     
  2. That option became available with the D7200, it is not in the D7100. Probably the reason why the permanent ISO in the viewfinder that the D7100 offers as an option went away with the D7200.
     
  3. That option became available with the D7200, it is not in the D7100. Probably the reason why the permanent ISO in the viewfinder that the D7100 offers as an option went away with the D7200.
     
  4. I didn't realize that option had become available on the D7200. It would be nice (not holding breath) if they could fix that in firmware, along with enabling trap focusing, which they also brought back on the D7200.
     
  5. Andrew,
    Ah, if only we had access to the source code. It's so annoying when that's what I used to do before I retired! Still I see the encryption has been broken so all you need to do is sit down with a nice cuppa and decompile the code ;-)

    Mathew,
    Musical chairs at Nikon again. On looking at the D7500 manual I see that they have dumped easy ISO but brought back the choice of ISO display rather than shots remaining. Easy exposure compensation remains - surely that's just too dangerous!

    Gary,
    The VR lenses actually have X and Y velocity sensors but I suspect that their information never actually reaches the camera body.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  6. Quite (although I didn't realise they'd broken anything recent - I'll have another look). It wouldn't be the first time I decompiled some firmware, but normally for something a bit simpler. I suspect there are enough computer types working around here that we could make a decent collective stab at it if Nikon let us. The firmware team can't be doing that much - the changes between bodies are very incremental.

    Really? I know the ISO button moved to where you can reach it with the right hand (I was one of the people who complained about this back in the D700 days) - but then it's been in my right hand since the D800 (I think) firmware update allowed mapping it to the record button.

    (Rummage...)

    Huh. Looks (from the manual) like it's gone from the D850 as well, presumably because they think you can adjust ISO directly from the right hand because they moved the ISO button there. Which you can... but not with your finger on the shutter release. Not that I used this, but I could see people who would. Naughty Nikon!

    The camera at least has enough to handle the virtual horizon, although I don't know how fast it is.

    Gary - same as cellphones, smart watches, etc. I believe. There's a little about it on wikipedia.
     
  7. The camera itself has an orientation sensor, it doesn’t need a VR lens to show the virtual horizon.
     
  8. Yes. Sorry, I'd meant to indicate that the camera contains an accelerometer but I don't know whether it's responsive enough for this use, not imply that it was getting this information from the lens.
     
  9. Belatedly, and obviously off-topic, here's what I was talking about with the grip discussion a week or so back. Please excuse the general scruffiness of these photos.

    I usually shoot with my body at about a 45-degree angle to the line of the lens, but here's the worst case of what I was talking about: pointing straight forward, elbows tucked in. This sometimes happens if I'm constrained for space, or as part of a panning sequence. My right wrist is very obviously bent (ably pointed out by the fold in my blubber it causes). Note this is with a 24-120, which I happened to have on the camera - hence my left hand is only supporting the lens with fingertips. If this had been a 70-200 or bigger I'd have my whole left palm on the lens, so please don't analyse that too deeply; it's the right wrist I was talking about here.

    Forward.JPG

    Okay, that's extreme. With my "normal" grip (turned to my left), the wrist is fairly straight (my hand is usually bent back a bit so the thumb is more in line with my forearm, but that's not the angle of this photo). However, note my right elbow is raised in prime elbow-a-child-in-the-face position. If I turn more forwards and want to keep the wrist straight, my elbow lifts higher (and the wrist bends back on itself rather than sideways):

    ElbowUp.JPG

    This also means my right elbow is unsupported, so I'm providing stability by wedging the camera against my face. If I try to tuck in my right elbow (and "tuck in" is somewhat relative given my shape, ironically caused by tucking in too much) so it's supported against my belly (which is not exactly a rigid support but offers some degree of VR-like dampening), my wrist is bent again:

    ElbowIn.JPG

    Anyway, not a critical issue, just an observation that the forward-facing deep camera grip is slightly at odds with the natural line of the wrist. The video market seems to have noticed this with the grip-from-underneath, but then a lot of consumer video cameras are designed to be held one-handed, let alone with heavy glass out the front. Short of the rotating grip design of the XC10 I'm not sure that there's much to be done about this, but all the talk of battery grips made me think about it - and I wanted to show that I wasn't making it up before.

    Or you could just all tell me my grip is wrong. :)
     
  10. When I used to use my D3S for fast horsey sports, I'd have the problem of having to switch from portrait to landscape pretty much whilst shooting: so portrait for jump shot straight to horizontal for canter. You cannot use the vertical grip to go back to landscape shooting, unless you can really kink your wrist backwards clockwise or heaven forbid go right round to upside-down. You can however, go from landscape grip to portrait shot by rolling your wrist (and camera anticlockwise) .... and go from portrait shot to landscape shot (with land grip) by rolling wrist clockwise.... pointy elbows not withstanding!

    It was only the speed of transition that made it a problem.

    I've got a 3rd party grip for my D500, but don't seem to use it much.
     
  11. PS the one handed video grip, where your right wrist is strongly canted, to about 90 deg right, makes my wrist sore after about 20 mins. I need a 45 degree wooden wedge mounted to the base!
     
  12. Yes, I don't think absolutely vertical works either, especially allowing for use on a tripod or on the ground. Rotation for the win.
     
  13. Do you need to have your knuckles aligned with the camera? If I relax my right hand, my little finger is more inside the palm than my forefinger. The fingers wrap around the camera body in an angle, but it means I don’t need to turn my wrist.
     
  14. Not entirely aligned (my hand still isn't completely horizontal, and the index finger is still towards the top pushing somewhat downwards as well as in). But enough so that I need to tilt my wrist. I'd guess my hand is at about 20 degrees to horizontal, and my wrist is nearer to 45.

    This is less true, as I eventually worked out, for a camera with a smaller grip like the Df (or most compacts). With those, my fingers are curled at an angle, which explains the vertical dial on the front of the Df. However, that also means you don't have such a secure grip on the camera. Deep grips, especially when you're expected to reach the Pv and Fn buttons with your middle fingers, kind of assume the fingers are going fairly straight into them, unless my anatomy is very odd (in ways I don't know).

    None of which is the end of the world, just an observation that it feels ergonomically inelegant.

    I imagine it's a bit late to bring this up with Giorgetto Giugiaro. :)
     
  15. I doubt there is anything "wrong" about any grip that works, but I do note that mine is different, as I tend to hold the left hand with the palm up so that the left of the camera's base rests on the palm beneath my thumb. This may not work for everyone, as I have rather small hands, very inflexible joints, and shoot right eyed. But the result, at least for me, is pretty steady.

    Here's a very quick and dirty mirror shot. This stance works pretty well for me and flipping to vertical by putting the left side of the camera down on the palm is very easy.

    mirrorshot.jpg
     
  16. This is less true, as I eventually worked out, for a camera with a smaller grip like the Df (or most compacts). With those, my fingers are curled at an angle

    Right, this is one reason why I prefer the shallow grip (and I really like the Df's handling, reminiscent of the F3HP). However, even with a deep grip I let the fingers approach the grip in an angle. My knuckles are at a 45 degree angle compared to the camera body, my forefinger at 60 degrees perhaps and the other fingers at 30-40 degrees.

    I prefer the shallower grip of the D810, D5, D3X whereas the deep grip of the D850 (or D750) is less comfortable. The D850 grip sort of forces my wrist to bend when the viewfinder is held to the eye. I wish they hadn’t done that. From what I understand people like the deep grip because it can be used as a carrying handle. But I'm mostly concerned with the ergonomics when actually shooting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  17. Thanks, both.

    Matthew - I have to say that it wasn't until I looked later that I realised my left hand was only using fingertips. That's unusual for me, and I guess related to the 24-120 being small (also I wasn't actually shooting) - I also have an L-plate on the camera, which makes it relatively back-heavy. With a short but heavier lens like, say, my 14-24 I certainly have my left hand more under the body (and I can roll the L plate onto it); for anything bigger, my hand is just on the lens. In this case, I think I'd have had my palm further back like you, but my belly was in the way. :)

    Oh... wait... After that detailed analysis, I've had another look at my photos, especially the top one. It turns out that I was rushing (because my wife didn't really want to take photos of me), and so I still have the lens cap in my left hand (rather than a pocket, where I usually put it). Hence the overloaded pair of fingers. I did say don't analyse that hand!

    Ilkka: Thank you - that makes sense, from what you've been telling me. Although I still consider the D810 and D5 to have a "deep" grip compared with other bodies - I'm relatively comfortable with the camera hanging from my fingers (carefully). I've yet to see a D850 in the wild; I'll have to try the grip in case it cures my NAS.

    On what I suppose is a related note, my biggest issue when shooting in portrait mode isn't the grip, it's that the strap almost inevitably falls across the finder. I should probably look at fixing that, but I've always been a bit wary of any strap attached to the tripod socket in case it unscrews itself.
     
  18. With regard to the strap, I have partly solved that for many years with a Tamrac strap with quick releases. I know some people don't trust plastic buckles, but none of mine have ever failed in over a decade of use. When things get in the way I just take the strap off and am left with little stubs. With a little leftover stuff I made a wrist strap too, so under certain circumstances I can snap that in place instead of the neck strap.

    With regard to the lens cap, I tend not to hold on to mine, preferring to lose them constantly instead. They usually turn up somewhere, but not always the same day.
     
    Andrew Garrard likes this.
  19. Well, certainly the D5 and D810 have deeper grips than the Df or F3, but the D750 and D850 grip feels deeper (it might be that they are narrower and the shape difference is what I don’t like). I guess I’ll get used to it.

    Quick and not very accurate measurements with a caliper: depth/thickness 27/32 (D850), 23/36 (D3X), 23/34 (D5).
     
    Andrew Garrard likes this.
  20. The grip on the F3 does literally nothing for me; it might as well not be there at all. The main difference to current cameras is that with those small grips (or none at all), the camera's weight pretty much rests in the palm of the hand while the hands desperately try to "get a grip". Strangely enough, given the not very ergonomic looking grip of the MD-4 (for the F3), holding it minimizes the bend in my wrist compared to every other camera I tried (F100, D810, D500, Sony A7II); the same holds true though when holding the battery-gripped D500 compared to the D500 alone - so at least part of the might be due to the taller height when a motor drive/battery grip is mounted).

    It appears that Nikon keeps changing the shape and depth of the grip with every new body; the D500's grip is definitely narrower and deeper than the D810's whereas the F100 is more in line with what I remember from the D200, D300, and D700 - not as deep but wider (the extreme here was the sheer volume of the F4 grip, no matter whether the MB-D20 or MB-D21 was fitted.

    Seems to be more in line with the way I hold the camera - certainly not nearly has aligned with the grip as Andrew's images show. I'd say my wrist is tilted about 30 degrees. Quite independent of whether I am holding the F100, D810, or D500 and certainly less when I am gripping the F3/MD-4 combo (or D500/MB-D17). With the external grip mounted on my Sony A7II the weird thing is that my wrist bends a tad more when holding the camera horizontal than holding it vertical. The main difference is that the camera's grip is shallow and broad whereas the battery grip is much narrower but deeper; the overall length seems to be about the same.
     

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