Craigslist and the wedding photography industry?

<p>I've been shooting weddings for a few years now as a side business, and am really loving it. I purposely don't book too many weddings per calendar year because I enjoy being able to give each client the attention they deserve. I have a solid portfolio, a good website, my prices are competitive for this area (without undermining the veteran wedding photographers), and I actively market myself. Long story short, I listened to the old pros when I was a newbie just getting my feet wet, followed their advice, and...nothing. I've had literally one booking this year. One. Uno. Ein. Un. Singular, not plural. I'm getting a little worried here!<br>

Some have proprosed that the slow-down in bookings is due to the economy continuing to wreak havoc on the wedding industry...but people are still getting married, right? Others have suggested that brides are just holding out longer before booking. I guess that's a valid argument, but I still feel like there's more to it. My theory is that the seasoned pros in the wedding photogrpahy industry are taking a backseat to the "bargain basement" photographers that put up ads on Craigslist, backpage, and other free public sites. And this trend is continuing. I know there's a lot of talent out there...and yes, maybe some brides got lucky and found an absolutely AMAZING photographer to shoot their wedding for, say, 500 bucks. The brides are happy with their results, so they tell all their friends, "Hey, I got a great deal on Craigslist. You don't need to pay a pro thousands of dollars when you can get someone just as good for a lot less". And so this results in a preponderence of brides-to-be scouring the Web looking for five-hundred-dollar wedding photographers. And THAT leads to people evaluating photographers based on their price more so than their work. The end result? We lose work.<br>

In a recent discussion thread on a popular wedding planning site (I won't say which one), a vendor was venting about how one bride got a photographer AND a videographer for a whopping $200. No, that isn't a typo...I even asked to make sure it wasn't...two HUNDRED dollars for photo and video. I was dumbfounded, yet I felt vindicated in a strange sort of way. I see the ads online. I get the occasionally "Can you shoot an eight-hour wedding for dirt cheap?" e-mail. What's the industry coming to?<br>

I can tell you that trying to educate these brides is like fighting a fire with gasoline. I get a lot of "give me your price" and then never hear back from these people again. I know people need to be savvy, but what are we to do?</p>

<p>I don't know. I haven't seen a decrease in my bookings despite living in an area with an unemployment rate of nearly 20%. This year's bookings are more than 20% over what I had last year and brides book anywhere from 18 months to 1 month in advance. I don't compete with bargain-basement photographers and don't compete based on price and don't really have many "just shopping arounders" contacting me. The ones that contact me know what they want (me), we meet and I yet have to have a couple not book me after a meeting in person (knock on wood). The brides I'm dealing with are not rich by any means but they do see the value in having somebody with a good reputation/track record shooting their wedding as opposed to taking a gamble by hiring somebody for 200 bucks. Not sure if it's my style of photography or the way the site is worded, the advertising is targeted but I have very, very few of the "it would be good for your portfolio if you shot my wedding for almost nothing" brides and I wouldn't want those to be my clients to begin with. So it all works out.</p>

<p>Presumably you can't make a living at $100/wedding or even $500/wedding, so these are likely to be people trying to build a skillset or portfolio or possibly reputation. But it is likely to put market pressure on people who are charging considerably more. That's not necessarily a bad thing, the market is supposed to decide what the fair rate is for this sort of thing. Sometimes it doesn' t work (like the Airlines for instance), but usually it does. If there are lots of people who will do a good consistent job for $500 or $1000 or $2000, then that becomes the average rate and to charge more you have to show that you offer more. Effectively the brides are taking more risk dealing with a lower priced photographer, sometimes considerable risk, but it's their risk to take.</p>

<p>It's easy for me to say since I'm not a professional or a wedding photographer, but I would say that if you want to charge more you have to find a way to deliver more either in service or reputation or reliability. And you have to find a way to demonstrate that you are in fact worth more.</p>

<p>You have to give them something the burn and churn photographers don't. That could be experience, artistry, exceptional customer service, etc. In the process of talking with brides who don't understand the industry, I usually end up calling on metaphors when discussing quality and what you get for your money. Normally, a metaphor directly relating to weddings works even better. I have told brides that they can hitchhike to the wedding in the back of a stranger's car (i.e. Craigslist) or they can ride in style with an established limo/carriage/vintage car company with a proven track record and... style. Both will get you where you want to go (hopefully, unless the Craigslist car takes you to a very bad place, which has been known to happen), but do you trust your wedding day to that... etc.<br>

<br /> Why should they choose you and pay more for pictures when Uncle Bob with his new DSLR can take them just as well? Oh, he can't? Why? What's the difference? What do you offer for that higher price tag?</p>

<p>The wedding market is changing and will continue to do so. Many reasons. The quality/value of photography is changing. The clients expectations of photography have changed. Some look around then decide, I can get most of those, I can see it on the back of the camera. Couples have different views toward marriage than in the past. More photographers are ready to take wedding photographs now than ever before.</p>

<p>Break those topics in the first paragraph apart. You can think and write about all of them. Maybe even more. </p>

<p>Raise your prices?</p>

<p>The closer someone is to the CL pricing threshold the more they will feel downward pricing pressure. The $800 photographer is at risk of losing work to the $500 photographer because the prospective client assumes they are interchangeable on value. But the $8000 photographer is at no risk at all - the entire CL market doesn't exist as far as they're concerned.</p>

<p>There's an unhappy place in the pricing curve where someone can be too expensive for undiscerning clients, and too cheap for discerning ones. The comfortable ground is always around the 60% price point of your total market (with the cheapest and most expensive at 0% and 100%).</p>

<p>my target demographics do not include the bargain hunting brides, so they can go hit CL photographers all they want.</p>

<p>bargain hunting brides are a bit too demanding and their expectation is a bit out of touch with reality.</p>

<p>I show my brides what I can offer them. If they can find someone that can deliver the same type of results at a cheaper price then by all means I tell them to go book that person.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Hey, I got a great deal on Craigslist. You don't need to pay a pro thousands of dollars when you can get someone just as good for a lot less". And so this results in a preponderence of brides-to-be scouring the Web looking for five-hundred-dollar wedding photographers. And THAT leads to people evaluating photographers based on their price more so than their work. The end result? We lose work.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For each of those stories you can also find one that goes something like this: </p>

<p>"OMG..I found this super cheap photographer in CL for like $500, but when we got our photos they were all horrible. What do I do now?"</p>

<p>brian - if you are concerned, either you aren't a good photographer, or too cheap.</p>

<p>CL photographers generally do two things: 1) get good and go pro and raise their prices or 2) drop out.</p>

<p>either case, the CL coupels that you talk about they aren't your clientele, or shoudln't be!</p>

<p>I say this as someone who started on craigslist, now a full time pro.</p>

<p>I would guess merely raising your prices only works if you can demonstrate you are worth it. Not only do you have to BE worth it, you have to be able to effectively show you are.</p>

<p>If the $500 photographer IS trying to build a portfolio and/or reputation, then you could equate it to going to a barber college to get your haircut. You might get a great cut, it will definitely be cheaper, but the risk of a disaster is substantially higher. A case in point just last week is that long thread of the failed wedding photographer. I don't know what she cost, but she looked a lot better on paper than she turned out to be in practice.</p>

<p>On the other hand, preying on people's fears in order to inflate your prices when your work doesn't rate what you're charging is worse to my mind than charging too little. If you charge a lot, you should actually be worth a lot -- so be worth a lot and be prepared to explain why.</p>

<p>>>>On the other hand, preying on people's fears in order to inflate your prices when your work doesn't rate what you're charging is worse to my mind than charging too little. If you charge a lot, you should actually be worth a lot -- so be worth a lot and be prepared to explain why.</p>

<p>Thank you David. This captures my thoughts exactly. If you use fear to manipulate a bride into booking, you better be able to deliver.</p>

<p>Also, per my observation marketing skills are more important than photography skills. A mediocre photographer with good business skills will find a way to book brides AND convince them that they product they actually got was awesome (expectations management). So along with your photo classes, maybe take a class on sales if you want to move out of the CL neighborhood.</p>

<p>I would give anything for a "what happened" page for the results of these weddings. It would answer a lot of questions and steer people away before they risk it. You shouldn't really want to book someone who thinks of nothing but how-cheap-can-I go because there won't be add-on sales, and you will have nothing but price haggling to look forward to afterwards. Switch marketing strategies, but ignore the Walmart brides!</p>

<p>David - great metaphor! With your blessing, I might just tell that to the next bride that asks me about Craigslist shooters! : )</p>

<p>Ok with me.</p>

<p>Suggest that instead of complaining about the CL shooters that you start by reviewing the marketing threads here at P-net..........</p>

<p>Theresa, I think the "what happened" page sounds like a cool idea, but it would likely not be accurate and representative of the photos the client received. It would pit the very worst images provided by a burn and churn photographer against the very best overproduced shots of a high-priced photographer.</p>

<p>That isn't to say that all Craigslist shooters are great and that all they need is a little photoshop + selectiveness in the images they give to the client. But it is to say that eliminating the bad images likely is the most important service a professional provides. As a mentor once told me "the difference between and amateur and a professional is that the professional shows you his best work, the amateur shows you ALL of his work."</p>

<p>I know that weddings are butchered by amateurs all the time. Even so, I would imagine that there are quite a few talented businesspeople posing as talented photographers who are smart about the images they provide to clients and do a lot of post-production work to save sub-par images. At least when a bride books a CL photographer they know that they are taking a risk--I think that they should not put their apprehensions aside just because they spent a small fortune on their photography.</p>

<p>The limousine metaphor above fails to capture the difference between wedding photography and a service like limo rental. With the limo rental place, I can go to the shop sit in the car, look at the outside and smell the interior. With photography I have some guy who assures me "the limo we provide for your wedding will be just as great as the one you see here--trust me." He might be right, but he might not but you have to trust that he is going to show up with his A game. His reputation should carry some weight--so you would do well to see how long he's been in business. Also, check the photographers blog. Images on their wedding site often are much better than what you see on his blog, and what he actually delivers is assuredly no better than what is posted on his blog.</p>

<p>Not to cut off discussion, but we recently had a similar thread.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VXEp">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VXEp</a></p>

"I get a lot of "give me your price" and then never hear back from these people again." Try this Brain...

 

When the people email you or call you, ask about their photography budget. It's a very fair question for you to ask. Then rapidly set up an interview date within 3 days or less. Needless to say ask what day the wedding is.

 

Then let them know someone else just called you for that same date, but they haven't signed the contract, so if you sign the contract first you will gladly be their wedding photographer. I can't tell you how successful this marketing tactic works.

 

There are just too many photographers out there, good and bad. Until you meet with them you are just another number. Once you meet with them you are no longer a number, you are now a professional photographer with wonderful images, the best in your area, booked every weekend, so they, the couple must understand you can't hold the date very long.

 

Let us know how you make out.

<p>Bob, do you find that that kind of "marketing" works. To me it seems unethical but I know others in my area are doing it. They also offer one price, and say that if they don't book on the spot the price will increase by 25%. <br>

I have lost clients to these scare tactics before. </p>

<p>I make most of my living off of craigslist. I also get a good share from google, and I don't mean the organic listings.<br>

(I should add that I don't look for weddings but I do look for event photography... weddings.. urk. People are so TENSE at weddings)<br>

google this >>> photography los angeles and find me in the top three most of the time.<br>

(kevin break) I say this so you know that I know what I'm talking about.<br>

There is a common and well placed perception that craigslist is to find the cheapest but IMHO it's also to find it right now, fast.<br>

You can call from the ad and someone (me) will probably answer immediately. This is faster and easier than any other way (but google itself)</p>

<p>I am also frustrated by the bottom feeders always looking for the lowest price, they are prevalent on CL.<br>

There is a lot of dreck there since its free. However there is a lot of quality too.<br>

I try to steer the client to this question; "what is your budget, low to high, for photos?" and/or "Are you looking for the best you can afford? How much is that?"<br>

I pass on jobs every couple days since I say, "I'd rather spend a little time, and a little of your money, to make a photo you will never forget".<br>

Being able to take credit cards pays for itself, btw.<br>

Better or worse, the way the world and the computer/internet revolution is tending, is for instant gratification a la craiglist.</p>

 

<p>Brian,<br>

Are you against advertising in Craigslist?<br>

Although there is sure to be a greater number of unfulfilled requests for information, there may be a few extra bookings.<br>

Craigslist is a powerful force to be reckoned with in today's instant gratification society.<br>

Everyone want's what they want, and they want it now. Craigslist provides that in a simple, localized package.<br>

My Opinion: The reason people are going from Pro's to Bro's.<br>

Everyone has a digital camera. Everyone has taken one good photo in their life. Therefore, photo's en masse are bound to produce a few adequate shots. This is akin to the popular 80's wedding tactic of placing a disposable camera on every table at a wedding. 30 cameras with 24 exposures is bound to produce a few presentable pix.<br>

Furthermore, most of today's marrying genre are content to seeing pictures from a cell phone. <br>

So, what is a good picture?</p>

<p>I'm torn on the issue with my business. I've debated advertising for churn and burn on Craigslist despite more than a decade of paid experience in photography, largely because I've shot everything <em>but</em> weddings. Luckily, I've got a few friends who are getting married in the coming month who happily agreed to free photography in the form of a wedding gift so I don't have to deal with the whole mess and setting up a false precedent for my pricing just to have something to put in the portfolio.<br>

There are photographers in my area who advertise less than $400 for a wedding and want to go professional, but I'm not worried about being undercut since I know they will either raise their prices or realize that prices in that range can't make for a sustainable full-time strategy and drop out. The only way this sort of pricing could work out is charging a low hourly rate and retaining copyright to make money from extremely marked up prints. Not a great way to get good word of mouth from the bargain hunters on Craigslist since they expect the whole package at an unsustainable price point for the expenses involved just in living, much less running a business. <br>

I hate to sound snobbish, but clients willing to pay more generally know that quality takes money going toward quality contractors. Lower tier clients, not so much. It's like they are expecting the quality of angus beef from sale priced ground chuck. Simple math on the business end can't support it.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Then let them know someone else just called you for that same date, but they haven't signed the contract, so if you sign the contract first you will gladly be their wedding photographer. I can't tell you how successful this marketing tactic works.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And here I am thinking, "That's exactly what a used car salesman does." I sure hope this is an exception and not representative of what the wedding photography industry has come down to.</p>

<p>I think there are a couple of missing economic elements in this equation.</p>

<p>First is the assumption that all, or perhaps even a majority, of the current wedding photography suppliers are full time businesses. I think the growth in numbers has been in Weekend Warriors and people thinking about "eventually" becoming full time photographers to escape increasingly stressful or threatening job environments.</p>

<p>Business models and profit scenarios that sustain long term viability in the strictest sense of the word may not apply. Someone looking to supplement their income, a spouse of a two income family where one has lost their job, or the ubiquitous salary downsizing could be manifesting itself here. An extra $500. is a BIG deal to many people these days when they are struggling to pay the mortgage.</p>

<p>Add that to the usual number of shooters doing this work to stuff extra cash into their cookie jar, or to indulge their passion for photography, where the "windfall" income ends up in the coffers of the camera makers as they buy the new gear they couldn't afford before.</p>

<p>Secondly, there are the clients themselves who are subject to the same economic realities. If given a choice anyone would choose a brand new car with a 5 year warranty over a used one with all the risks that come with it. Same with anything else, including purchasing wedding photography. It's not a matter of convincing them which is better, deep down, they know ... but they rationalize and prioritize it in different ways based on their own personal realities.</p>

<p>Clients that DO have the money to buy top end products are some of the best "value" shoppers on the planet. While a $5,000. wedding package is well with-in their reach, it doesn't mean just pricing yourself there will magically bring them to your doorstep. Perhaps more than anywhere else on the social scale, this group relies on word-of-mouth amongst their peers ... which is why well established wedding shooters in that economic community continue to thrive, while making it increasingly difficult to penetrate the social glass ceiling.</p>

<p>It is not easy out there. If you are not prepared to invest a lot of time and some money, and have the goods to back you up, then your competition will eat you alive on just price.</p>

<p>Oh, and don't assume that all photographers entering this field of work are lousy despite the antidotal "distressed Bride." Shooting a wedding isn't brain surgery, and any decent journalist, or editorial shooter can pick it up pretty quickly ... or have done enough weddings as favors over the years to step right in and go. I have a friend, who is as good a photographer as any of those proclaimed as the world's ten best, that just shot a wedding in Shanghai China ... the results made my eyes bug out. One recent wedding he shot with me was hung in the National Gallery in St. Petersburg Russia as part of an international cultural show of weddings worldwide ... yet we here might well consider him a "newbie."</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>And here I am thinking, "That's exactly what a used car salesman does." I sure hope this is an exception and not representative of what the wedding photography industry has come down to.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is a recognised marketing tactic - what is so special about Wedding Photography that this should not be used? <br>

If photography is your living then this should be at least considered even if you choose to reject it immediately on whatever grounds you choose (be it ethical or otherwise). Customers are free to shop around, to lead you on and get two parties bidding against each other, so why shouldn't the photographer-businessman use any tactics they want to encourage business? The skill is in identifying those (potential) customers who will recognise and resent the tactic and so kick you into touch.</p>