Converting 220V 50Hz to 110V 60Hz

Discussion in 'Black and White' started by jay_drew, May 21, 2010.

  1. A US Jobo processor runs of 110V & 60Hz. A European one runs on 220V & 50Hz. Correc
    It's a simple matter to convert 110V to 220V w/ a transformer. Correct?
    How difficult is it to convert 50Hz to 60Hz? I suspect it's not easy nor cheap?
    Do any of the readers of this group know how to do it?
    What transformers & other devices are necessary?
    What is a frequency converter called?
    Mainly it's the frequency converter I'm curious about, but perhaps they both would be incorporated in to the same device.
    Thank you for any insight, JD
     
  2. Don't worry about the frequencies. Equipment is built to be able to accept a range of both incoming voltage and frequency. I mean, your Jobo processor does not only run on 110V / 60Hz. It runs on anything between 105 - 120 V / 50 - 60 Hz.
    Just go to the local electronics store and get a voltage converter. The only thing you need to worry about is the power needed. Voltage converters are always rated at the Watts they are able to deliver on the output of the conversion.
    Get a converter that gives 25-30% more output than the maximum Power need of your Jobo. If the Jobo says it needs 75 Watts, get a converter that does 100 Watts. It's best that such converters are not always operated at their maximum capacity, since the transformer will heat up and the heat will impact the performance.
    Hope it helps.
     
  3. Any semiconductor based frequency converter would cost many times more than the Jobo processor.
    Less expensive proposition would be to use a DC-to-AC converter with desired AC level and frequency output, and use a DC battery, e.g. a motorcycle or car battery.
    You could even use a AC-toDV-toAC dual converters, if you are electonically savy.
    However, once you transform the voltage to proper level required for Jobo, the frequency conversion may not be necessary, if you take on account all exended durations for the processes, and compensate as proportional.
    If Jobo processor just uses available electricity frequency, and is not a DC motors and timers, then you will just need to take on account the time needed. E.g. the motor rotates faster at 60 Hz then it would at 50Hz, and therefore you may need to do a different setting duration required to provide the same agitation time, etc.
    I suggest you try a "Dry test" and measure duration of processes, and see how that changes, perhaps in 60/50 ratio longer in Europe.
     
  4. The extended durations would be true if timers and motors are AC. But the Jobo also operates on a battery and the following link shows the motor speed controller being fully DC:
    http://tech-diy.com/jobo.htm
    As such, the CPE-2 and CPE-2 Plus operate fully on DC and you do not need to worry about the frequency. Just get a cheap voltage converter with the appropriate power value as I indicated before.
     
  5. To use a 220V on a 110V system do as Dennis says, get a voltage converter and don't worry about the frequency difference.
    To physically convert a 220V 50 Hz to a 110V 60Hz unit replace the internal transformer in the 220V unit with a 110V primary transformer that has the same voltage output in the transformer secondary. The filtering in the 50Hz unit will function very well on 60Hz. If you were converting a 110V 60Hz to 220V 50Hz you might have to increase the size of the filter capacitors depending on how critical the DC level of the device required. This simple motor controller will not need any change of the filter capacitors.
     
  6. Ignore my comments as not appropriate for the Jobo.
     
  7. Jay
    There is no reason to step your 110 up to 220 with a transformer. You have 220 in your house, and likely run your clothes dryer and oven with it. I run my Jobo CPE2 on 220 60HZ from my dryer socket. It's perfectly happy with that. I live in the US. I bought the Jobo when I was stationed in England. As others have said, ignore the 50HZ versus 60HZ, the Jobo won't mind.
    Ray
     
  8. There is also the MacGrubber way You splice 2 120 plugs into a single line and plug one into the top and the second into the bottom socket. You now have instant 220 from a 120 outlet as for the 50Htz the 60 will only make it turn a little faster and you can adjust the times for that.
     
  9. Wow, I just watched a trailer of MacGruber. Jeez, I didn't think it could get any worse than McGiver, but it can! :)
     
  10. When I lived in Turkey that was an approved way to use 110 boxes for Military 220 equipment. :)
    Military bases had both built into the buildings. Many houses had a 220-120 step down built into them as did many houses in the Villages and Cites buildings and homes designed to be rented to Americans.
     
  11. RE" A US Jobo processor runs of 110V & 60Hz. A European one runs on 220V & 50Hz."
    If the legal patent plate says " 110V 60 Hz that does NOT imply it will run on 50Hz. They place input requirements on defines to protect the lay public, the assuming types. If there is a fire it protects the insurance company with a claim that should be paid.
    If you are the Beavis and Butthead type you can plug it in and look for smoke; ie the "smoke test":) :)
    If the device really only is labeled 60Hz anAC induction motor inside will have more core loss on 50Hz; the motor might then run super hot and burn up the windings. If it is a 50/60 Hz AC motor it has more laminations; what is required for 50hz.
    The control transformers can be 60 hz only too; unless they are known; that is another risk.
    If one drops the voltage by about 50/60 on a 60Hz Ac induction motor; the core will not saturate.
    Unless one knows what is inside the processor as far as motors; circuits block, diagram; a project like this is more of a Beavis and Butthead project. A converter might cost more than one would think.
    Small stuff can be run on a 12V to AC converter; if less that 2000 watts
    ***Again if your device has 60Hz AC motors and place in on 50Hz; you can burn up all the induction motors stuff and transformers. I have a PE license in EE; thus I probably should warn folks not drop radios in bathtubs; run 60hz stuff on 50Hz; not to load film tanks in daylight.
    If it is a dumb Edison bulb runing 60 hz on 50 hz does not matter. If it is a transformer ; AC fan or AC induction motor; running a 60hz only version on 50hz may or may not burn it up; it depends on how close to saturation the design is. Today to save costs; most AC 60 hz motors are NOT dual 50hz and 60hz; they are 60 hz only; it saves copper wire and steel.
    One the flip side if there are no inductive motors AC timers and the speed is DC; its powers supply may or may not like a 50Hz input.
    There are so many unknowns
    ***WHAT does the patent/model number plate say?
    (1) Jay you mention : "110V & 60Hz"
    (2) Dennis you mention: 105 - 120 V / 50 - 60 Hz.
    ****It is normal practice to mark the input requirement on devices for the last 120 years.
    If the processor also is approved to run on 50Hz it should say so; ie no assuming at all.
    *BEWARE* that in world economy it would be nice to have most stuff run anywhere; and if a variant can be made cheaper for county B; the makers will "Make it so" . Thus one can have different variants of the same model; and thus different opinions from users here.
    We had an old Dupont wash off film processor about 16 years ago that was made in Germany; but used here in the USA. Its patent plate said 220V 60Hz. When we scrapped it out the 220 to 24 volt step down 2KW transformer inside was 50H/60HZ; and the drying fans 220volt 60hz; the DC driver for 1/4HP DC motor was 220volt 50/60 hz. Thus most of the stuff was 50/60hz except the many blowers. Thus to run this on 50 hz would require new squirel cage blowers.
     
  12. folks are talking both ways
    if the jobo , indeed, has a dc motor the 120/220/50/60 cycle issue is moot.
    why not just replace the german power supply with an american power supply.
    but be careful to have a supply with enough output.
    the first question.
    as far as Mc Gruber! (I think it is Mc Guiver) some newer homes are wired so 230v
    goes to every outlet. the white wire goes to one and the black wire to the other outlet ( standard duplex outlet)
    and the third common or ground goes to both. a small metal bridge is broken off so the 2 outlets are separate.
    However some homes are wired so one outlet is connected to a wall switch and the other is not.
    Typically the bedside lamp is on one side and controlled by the wall switch and the other is for the clock-radio.
    a frequency converter.
    I used one at HP. it required two men or a follish single man to move.
    you could dial op any voltage and frequency.
     
  13. In regards to the US supply voltage, the standard voltage that is supposed to be at an outlet is 120vac (20 years with a power utility). The supply to the house is actually 240vac from a step-down transformer that has a center tap. The center tap is the "neutral" and the 120vac is derived by connecting to either of the two incoming hot legs to the neutral. The neutral is also generally grounded at the circuit breaker panel. Essentially if you connect a European 220-230vac device to this 240vac source there may be no safety ground connection as there normally would be with a 120vac system. I'm not sure how European electrical appliances are safety grounded if they are at all. I'm aware of the two prong plug that I was familiar with in Germany, but I don't know if one leg is hot and the other a grounded neutral or both hot. Depending on the internal wiring of the Jobo there could be a possiblity of coming in contact with 120vac or even 240vac through an exposed metal part or if something got wet.
    The best solution to the voltage issue would be an adequately rated stepup transformer. I'm not at all familiar with the Jobo processor other than Google searches. It appears there is a heating unit to maintain the tank temperature and may be rated at about 350-400 watts. Check the plate on the unit to verify the power consumption. The stepup transformer would need to handle this with some margin of safety.
    A quick ebay search found this http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-LiteFuze-10...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ca446bec1
    I can't endorse that product for quality or reliability, but something similiarly rated should work OK.
    So far as the difference in frequency, an AC motor may run slightly faster and possibly a bit warmer, DC motor doesn't care, and if there is an electronic timing circuit synced from the line voltage, the time may not be accurate. The heater won't care about frequency.
    By far the best thing to do would be call Jobo and see what they say... http://www.jobo.com/web/Contact.171.0.html
     
  14. As far as running a 60Hz induction motor on 50Hz; the motor can burnout.
    If the motor is a typical design that is newer; it is already almost at saturation. It is roughly like taking 120 volt 60hz AC induction motor and running it on 6/5 * 120 volts ie 144 volts; somewhat insane. This is often not "somewhat warmer" but burn the motor up warmer.
    If it catches on fire; your house insurance is null and void unless you plead insanity or say you are nuts. :)
    *****Normally if one *HAS* to run a 60hz motor on 50hz the proper procedure is to DROP the voltage by 5/6 if you must place a 60Hz only induction motor on 50HZ. It is more complex that that; but this is close enough for a discussion.
    This drop can be with a buck boost transformer connected to "buck/drop" the voltage by 1- 5/6=1/6. For 220 this would be 220/6= 37 volts. Unless one knows the design margin of a 60Hz induction motor there is *no rational way* to say if it will work on 50HZ and die in short order. It might run 20 years; or die in 20 minutes; it depends if it gets into hard saturation.
    With just 60HZ if you want to test the 60HZ induction motor; measure no load input current versus input voltage if it is a 120 volt 1/2 hP motor it might be 6amps no load; the load mostly reactive.
    If one uses a variac and increases the ac voltage; the current with go up a lot once one hits the knee/hockey stick of the iron laminations saturating. Once you hit this the current goes up a lot. If you go to the 144 volts and current is still not a lot; you probably will be ok at 50Hz. With a modern motor and the design sweated; you might not even be able to get to 144 volts; you hit 30 amps and you are in the dark with the 20 amp circuit breaker tripped. Since one has core loses and winding losses; having too much current ruins the windings; or you can fry eggs on the motor too.
    So again; the proper thing to read the darn patent plate instead of lay assuming.
    Do this before calling JOBO; they will ask you that anyway.
    Assuming is no way to go thru life.
    We engineers place those patent plates there for a reason; to answer dumb questions.:)
    ie model number
    ie serial number.
    ie voltage and frequency;
    ie wattage
    ie amps
    ie volt amperes
    ie rev number
    ie variant number
    ie what mods are installed.
    ie when built
    ie where built
    When I worked for one of the seven dwarf computer companies; if one asked questions like this without the patent plate info more that a couple times; you just got canned. They wanted folks who could read.
    ****Is this an Ebay purchase to be or something? Thus all this fiddle fart assuming and no patent plate info?
    Devices that are 50/60 hertz are labeled as such. Labels like this are required by law. It was been like that before any of us were born.
    Read the label on the device. Do this before calling Jobo so one doesnt look too dumb. If it says 60HZ they may have a 50HZ kit for 220volts too.
    Assuming is for amateurs. A 50HZ AC motor or transformer sometimes can get so hot on 60HZ one has a fire hazard too; ore maybe just alot of smoke and some excitement.
    Assuming really has no place with something like this.
    If I was at Jobo I would tell folks no if they had no patent plate info; to risky; if they cannot read; a hell of alot of risk.
    It really has to be like this; if folks cannot mention the actual patent plate info; one cannot research the model. With todays liability issues and dumbing down of society; I would not doubt this thread gets nuked.
    Again; it is possible to say what it says on the patent plate on your Jobo; or is this a general question?
    Also what other important info; WATTS and VA (volt amperes) if it is listed.
    If it is a low wattage device you can just run the darm thing of an BIG invertor.
    I know the USA is 60Hz and 120V ac; I just would like to see the info of the target processors patent plate.
    One has to at least in the USA ground the frame to earth green wire ground; and not the neutral (which is normally close to ground). In the USA some places in the usa require a ground fault on 240 volts too; as special two pole breaker; often seen with pool heaters and pumps. Ground faults for 120v in wet areas goes back a couple decades. Your have a dangerous mix; possible water leak on floor; decent voltage.
     
  15. I attempted to post this a couple of days ago. It didn't fly. Hope it works this time.
    Thanks to all
    What I think I'm hearing is that Dennis is saying to just convert the 110V to 220V via a simple transformer that has the wattage capacity plus @ least 30% more, and the Jobo will take care of the 60Hz instead of 50Hz w/o any consequences.
    Others are saying the same as above, but times will have to be reduced by 80%.
    Dennis also referenced CPE JOBOs. My interest is in the CPP-2 or CPA-2. Does that change anything?
    Charles says to change the JOBO internal transformer to 110V & the frequency will take care of it's self.
    Raymond pointed out that most homes have 220V built in & it will work fine for a JOBO processor.
    If I understand Larry correctly, he is saying that it's possible to take 2-110V outlets (1 on top of the other type outlet) & connect the + lines in series & the – lines in series, & keep the neutral line as is, if a home doesn't have 220V. Correct?
    I get the impression that the 60Hz will do no harm to a 50Ha processor. It's just a matter of making the conversion & timing the times as to weather they need to be changed.
    This all sounds like good advice. I dearly hope it all applies to CPPs as well to CPAs.
    Thanks to all who contributed, I certainly know more that before I asked the question, JD
    PS I have also emailed JOBO
     
  16. I attempted to post this a couple of days ago. It didn't fly. Hope it works this time.
    Thanks to all
    What I think I'm hearing is that Dennis is saying to just convert the 110V to 220V via a simple transformer that has the wattage capacity plus @ least 30% more, and the Jobo will take care of the 60Hz instead of 50Hz w/o any consequences.
    Others are saying the same as above, but times will have to be reduced by 80%.
    Dennis also referenced CPE JOBOs. My interest is in the CPP-2 or CPA-2. Does that change anything?
    Charles says to change the JOBO internal transformer to 110V & the frequency will take care of it's self.
    Raymond pointed out that most homes have 220V built in & it will work fine for a JOBO processor.
    If I understand Larry correctly, he is saying that it's possible to take 2-110V outlets (1 on top of the other type outlet) & connect the + lines in series & the – lines in series, & keep the neutral line as is, if a home doesn't have 220V. Correct?
    I get the impression that the 60Hz will do no harm to a 50Ha processor. It's just a matter of making the conversion & timing the times as to weather they need to be changed.
    This all sounds like good advice. I dearly hope it all applies to CPPs as well to CPAs.
    Thanks to all who contributed, I certainly know more that before I asked the question, JD
    PS I have also emailed JOBO
     
  17. Kelly posted that:
    >One has to at least in the USA ground the frame to earth green wire ground; and not the neutral (which is normally close to >ground). In the USA some places in the usa require a ground fault on 240 volts too; as special two pole breaker; often seen >with pool heaters and pumps. Ground faults for 120v in wet areas goes back a couple decades. Your have a dangerous mix; >possible water leak on floor; decent voltage.
    Yes. I agree that any electrical device used in proximity to H2O should have a ground fault interrupter. JD
     
  18. Jay;
    (1) is this a processor you are think about buying or have already?
    I ask because the name plate info would be nice.
    (2) the proper way to use 220/240 in the USA is thru a proper 2 pole breaker for 240 volts. A jackleg approach of using the two hots from two different rooms is poor. The circuit of wall sockets in one room is normally one leg; thus you have to find one on another leg; typically this is in another room or hallway. This set up is poor; extremely bad for many reasons; a short or fault is only going to trip one leg; thus when tripped and the unit appears dead one leg of the 120 volts is still hot. One has extension cords running from room to room to do this. A real two pole AC breaker has two breakers tied together with a bar; either one trips both breaker.
     
  19. I was watching how the discusion developed... and becomes clear that if you follow some of the advices given ? - make sure to notify local fire department and ask to stand by, before you try to connect it the first time.
     
  20. I sure hope you did not take me serious though in an emergency I did do it ONE time. You may also check as I opened many electric items I got in Europe to find a switch close to the motor that switched the voltage.
     
  21. @jay.
    CPP-2 or CPA-2;
    The CPP2 has a cold water solenoid. I'm not sure if that is DC. If it is, no problems. If it is not, I do not think that a water cooler is very frequency sensitive.
    Yes, looked it up; Both units have 2 parts that are AC; The pump motor (of the cold water solenoid I assume) and the heating element. These are typically 110v / 220v. And both elements are not so sensitive to the 50Hz - 60 Hz discussion and will not have a big impact on your operating.
    There are some differences in the rotation motor over time, but it's DC. No worries.
    The other differences are all cosmetic (different way of dialing in temperature, different thermometer, LED display and different thermometer accuracy).
     
  22. All this this discussion with still no comment about what the legal input is stamped on the machines patent plate.
    This thread get the Beavis and Butthead award.
    No wonder liabilty insurance and health insurance so high.
    Folks would rather fiddle fart and talk about an issue; then read the patent plate that is the legal basis for the qualified approved input. Theses plates are on machines to reduce doofus behavior.
    Since machines are made in variants; reading the patent plate should be done.
    Machines can be 50hz only 60 hz only or 50/60 hz. A machine made in 1920 has this info; but they uses cycles instead of Hertz.
    JOBO; should just say no dice. If no id can be given; who wants the liability of folks who cannot read dealing with 220 volts on an unknown device of theirs; around water. It is too risky. This is one of the main reasons accident happen; too much assuming.
    ***AC Solenoids can be 50Hz or 60Hz or 50/60 Hz.
    50 hz requires more laminations. Cost reduced stuff is made for 60Hz only; on 50 hz it may or may not work OK; it might get warmer; or so hot it burns up in minutes; hours; few days.
    The answer is like you know this parachute is ok with 24 lines and Beavis is going to cut some of them. Butthead can go for it and if it works he is a hero.
    On a dumb clothes washer some solenoids are 50/60 hz so are 60 hz only
     
  23. Dennis thank you
    Where did U look up all this? Or maybe U speak German? I've looked w/o much success.
    JD
     
  24. Jay;

    In Astronomy the old Jobo had the drum driven by an AC synchronous clock motor. To change speed of the drum one swapped out gears like a lathe. This was a real small 120 volt 60 Hz AC motor. The gears came on a box. The gear ratio changed the RPM of the drum. A cam affair reversed and added some variation.

    The temperature control input box had a big transformer that dropped the voltage somewhere in the 30 to 45 ac volt range; a safer voltage in damp wet darkroom. There were no GFI breakers or plugs then. The lower voltage went to the processor that had a triac that regulated the bath temp. The temp control had a termistor; the DC circuit ran off the lower AC voltage; was rectified for the control board. If the termistor got replaced; you recalibrated the temperature knob .That was before C41 came out; thus temperatures for old C22 were just 75F for coior negative; and maybe the usual 68 to 75 F for B&W films.

    Your chances are better of getting a response from a maker are better if the model and serial number is given.
    Jobo stopped making processors in May 2006, Insolvency proceedings started in March 2010. The company goes back to 1923.

    Imagine some poor guy in Germany who is about to be laid off ; getting an email asking about Processors and frequencies and convertors . Jobo had processor models out in the field before he was even born.

    With some consumer products after the legal support ends you sell off the a parts to somebody who has the time to fool with declining stuff in the field; other times you just grind it all up and thus kill all the support; since it is a time sink hole and has a giant liability factor.
    The CPP2 has a better temp control than a CPA2; plus it has the cold water solenoid.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkxFN-O1z2k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FmM_JM1J3U&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr3KFa0pLbI&feature=PlayList&p=699BE37A40EA94BD&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QITQeaPc7oA&feature=PlayList&p=699BE37A40EA94BD&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=4
     
  25. Many Modern Jobo models they made are made in both:

    230V 50 Hz and 120 Volt 60Hz;

    thus a field support person might just wonder why not use the one that fits your local power type.

    It might be cheaper to buy one for you area than convert one from another area.

    Used stuff like this varies widely; what is junk to one place is wanted by others. Your best place to get one cheap is probably not ebay but a school that is throwing one in the trash ; stuff at state auctions for school stuff; thrift stores.
     
  26. @Jay,
    I do speak German (being Dutch), but I have to apologize that I can't really write it...
    But I searched for Jobo spare part lists on the Jobo site and looking at the parts that can be replaced on different models and being an electronics engineer from background, I have a good guess of which part will be critical and which one not towards using a transformer.
    The difference between the CPP and CPA have already been discussed on various forums and the spare part lists reflect that this discussion is correct.
     
  27. So what does the data plate really say?
    When I live in Germany in the 80's we had a bell & Howel 8mm movise projector that was 110v 60 Hz. I used a stepdown transformer 220 to 110 to use the projector. It was running on 110 50 Hz. After about six months the motor burned out and I junked the projector.
    If the motor is not markerd 50/60 Hz expect it to fail when powered by the wrong AC frequency.
     

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