Constructive criticism

Hello,<br>

I am new to this forum. I work full time as a accounts manager, I'm a wife and mother of a two year old. I am self taught & I have been doing wedding photography part time for a few years now, I have people telling me I'm really good, I should pursuit it full time but I'm my worst critic, always looking at professional photographers wishing my work could look like that. I suppose I'm also comfortable earning a reliable salary every month & scared of taking the leap of faith. I wish I could have more time devoted to photography but working full time makes it seem impossible sometimes.<br><br>

 

I have applied to assist or 2nd shoot for other wedding photographers, just so I can gave some more experience & confidence, learn from professionals but have had no joy.<br><br>

 

I just want to be able to do a job that I absolutely love, be more flexible for my family & be someone my daughter can be proud of.<br><br>

 

I'm looking for some honest opinion's & constructive criticism. Advice most definitely appreciated.<br><br>

 

My website is a bit out dated, so please see the link below to my FB page, it has my most recent work on there. <br><br>

 

https://en-gb.facebook.com/Photography-by-Debra-Brown-222754397774362/ <br><br>

 

Thank you so much, look forward to your response.<br><br>

 

Debra x

Debra, why not post photos here and ask for critiques? This site has the ability for that, and given that a percentage of the people may not use Facebook, it's also more convenient, frankly. I think you also wouldn't want critiques directly on facebook either, in case they'd be harsh or negative (assuming you use FB for promoting your activity).<br><br>

 

Unrelated, but for consideration, as a non-professional, I think there is nothing wrong with not making the leap of faith right away. Professional photography is not an easy market, and having a secure, paid, job to back up your efforts to me only seems wise. Choosing for a bit of security and stability doesn't make your dedication to your photography any less, just more realistic, and nobody should be less proud because of this.<br><br>

 

Anyway... I only gave a relatively quick look at the album on your facebook. Personally, I think the light is all quite flat, with relatively little contrast ("pop") in the photos, they lack a bit of bite and presence that way, in my view. Also, in the album you've got there, the largest shown photo has some white veil blocking the right part of the photo, it looks rather messy, I'd crop that out to get a overall cleaner composition, and I'd make sure the first photos one sees on your facebook page are definitely your prefered, don't let facebook handle the ordering for you.

Hi Debra - there are many people here that can help you along with that journey - everyone has a slightly different path to their "success". Being a full time professional photographer and making a living at it is incredibly hard work, very lonely at times (many times), and has its own set of frustrations that many people don't see until they are actually there. Its not to say its not worth it - but know what you're getting into (aka don't quit a six figure job until you're ready). My advice would be to find photographers that inspire you and learn from them - whether it be 2nd shooter or within a community there are many ways to learn from others.

 

Here are some great tips from someone that inspires me (and many, many others):

• Remember City Slickers "1 thing" well, this is 3 things but same idea: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/say-no-unless-a-project-has-at-least-2-of-these-3-things/
  
• A Mentor - would be nice to have one! http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/how-to-find-mentor-and-what-to-do-when-you-get-one/
  
• Network: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/the-other-50-percent-network-community/
  
• But all this is best summarized here, no matter what you do in life: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/the-hit-list-13-things-crucial-for-success/
  

Lastly, NGU = never give up. Even in your darkest moment of "WTF am I doing" - because those moments will come - keep going because if you really want it - you will find a way.

The grass is always greener on the other side. <BR><BR>

 

It is not all roses. Read the threads in the wedding section, and you can see some of the problems that some have run into.<BR><BR>

 

Filling the pipe (with clients) and keeping it full is likely to be one of the hardest things you will have to do. Very little to do with photography, everything to do with marketing. This applies to any startup business. I have a few friends who closed down their business because they could not keep the client pipe full consistently over the long term (think years or decades) to make their business support themselves. <BR><BR>

 

The standard rule for most startups is to expect to loose money for the first 5 years. Do you have enough money in savings to keep you going for that length of time? You will have income during that time, but there will be dry spells of nothing but expenses. And during that time you have to spend to keep marketing your business. Once you start to make a profit, you are not out yet, because then you are repaying yourself for the initial losses you had. The length of time to start making a profit depends on how fast you can fill the pipe with clients and keep it filled. <BR><BR>

 

As for family. Think about when most weddings are, Sat and Sun, from mid day into the evening. Are you comfortable not seeing you daughter for many of those days and nights?<BR><BR>

 

Notice that I did not mention photography or equipment. This is basic small business startup. There are a LOT of info available to help small businesses. Look for them and take advantage of as many of the programs as you can, many are free. As part of that, you need to make a business plan, a real unbiased business plan. <BR><BR>

 

It is for these and other reasons that I never gave a serious thought to going pro full-time.

Personally, I would keep doing the part time gig, but seriously step up the marketing. Because if you cannot fill the client pipe and keep it full, you won't make it.<BR><BR>

 

gud luk

"I just want to be able to do a job that I absolutely love, be more flexible for my family & be someone my daughter can be proud of."<BR><BR>

 

Keep in mind that a lot of folks who 'love' a hobby find that they don't love it so much as a business. Taking wedding pictures is most likely the easy part. Competing for business, dealing with clients who have very specific expectations, doing all the post processing work, are all facets of the business that you might not enjoy as much - though you could certainly derive a great deal of satisfaction in a job well-done and fully appreciated.<BR><BR>

 

As for flexibility, I don't know that there is a whole lot of flexibility in making a living as a wedding photographer. Certainly, you lose most of your weekends if you are successful (which might be the most meaningful time you can spend with your daughter as she grows), and clients want their pictures sooner than later, so when you aren't shooting, you'll most likely be working on what you've shot as well as trying to drum up more business.<BR><BR>

 

As for your daughter being proud of you, most kids are proud of their parents for being good parents. I don't think they typically care what your job is.<BR><BR>

 

None of this is to say that you shouldn't try to pursue your dream, as most everyone who has ever done that has had plenty of naysayers, but going in with a full knowledge of what to expect would certainly help. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to assist a successful photographer in the area, or at least talk to them to see what their normal day is like (if they are willing to do that). You might find that keeping it as a hobby suits you much better.<BR><BR>

 

By the way, absolutely nothing wrong with your pictures, but I'm not sure they would set you apart from other wedding photographers I might be considering if I was in the market for one. <BR><BR>

Edited February 21, 2017 by jordan2240

. . . doing wedding photography part time for a few years now, . . . . I'm looking for some honest opinion's & constructive criticism. Advice most definitely appreciated. My website is a bit out dated, so please see the link below to my FB page, it has my most recent work on there. . . look forward to your response.

 

 

Apropos C&C:<br><br>

 

I critiqued three wedding folders. I suggest that you consider addressing the following matters which present in images in all three of those folders:<br><br>

 

 

Framing – pay attention to the COMPOSITION especially as it pertains to the edges of the frame: there are images which cut portions of limbs or body parts or people. <br><br>

 

 

B&W Conversion – all lack the full register of Grey Tones and many have neither a Black-Black nor White-White thus rendering a “washed out” effect. This might be an artistic interpretation, if so consider that it might be being overdone, if every B&W has it. <br><br>

 

 

Flash as Fill Outdoors - many of the outdoors shots lack punch and vitality, this appears to be because of a lack of modelling and or appropriate lighting on the face areas – it appears that no Fill Light has been used in many (all?) of the outdoor Portraiture. <br><br>

 

 

Wide Angle Lenses – balance carefully the artistic effect of using a Wide Angle Lens for Portraiture and the any DISTORTIONS of the human form which might result. <br><br>

 

 

Comprehensiveness of display of work – images across the three weddings do not represent all portions of a typical wedding timeline. For one example there is no Bridal Portraiture whilst she is being prepared - other key parts of a typical wedding day are absent too. <br><br>

 

 

***<br><br>

 

 

Apropos Advice:<br><br>

 

 

Get your website up to date and start placing a range of shots that encompass the ENTIRE timeline of a typical wedding. Arguably many prospects would interpret that “facebook” is merely an adjunct to the website of a working professional – for those prospect who do not interpret the website as the main site, then it doesn’t matter anyway. In any case, a website will allow for the display of images at an higher image quality, than what is possible at "acebook"<br><br>

 

 

Ensure the shots that you show are the best you have. <br><br>

 

 

Refresh and update regularly. <br><br>

 

 

Consider including a section for Engagement and General Portraiture. <br><br>

 

 

WW

I don't belong to facebook. When I go to that site provided above I get a large popup that says, "See more of Photography by Debra Brown by logging in to Facebook." Then I can either log in or sign up to continue. I choose to do neither so it is "Bye, Bye, Debra." <BR><BR>

 

I found your web page - www.photographybydebrabrown.com/<BR><BR>

 

The photos are too large for my lap top with all the border space around them on each page. I have to scroll up and down to see the entire photo. That is an irritant so again it is, "Bye, bye, Debra." <BR><BR>

 

<BR><BR>Just some things to keep in mind and to check if you want to keep possible clients looking at your web pages.

Having been both a full time professional photographer and a hobbiest -- I might observe that nothing can destroy an enjoyable hobby like making it a job. When you are a hobbiest you shoot to please yourself. When you are in business you shoot to please your customer. In addition to the photography itself there is the business and the marketing, etc. The business side of the photo business will occupy well over half your time if you do it right. To be successful and have the experience be rewarding you should enjoy both the photo and business side of the operation.

. . .

I am new to this forum. . . I'm looking for some honest opinion's & constructive criticism. Advice most definitely appreciated. . . look forward to your response. . .

Debra x

 

How have you progressed since receiving the feedback from this forum?

 

WW

I would be interested as well. No one has all the answers. Not even most of the answers. Self confidence and management skills are often the bottom line. Everyone here probably has some of your skills. How are you doing is a good question from the Moderator. Think of it as group therapy. Get back to us if possible. Be well. Enjoying a hobby is good enough for most of us. Earning a real living is another story. Self taught? Now that is something that might earn a second look. An apprenticeship will test many things I mean. And a workshop can be fun as well whether for hobby or step towards making some cash. Parenting is likely the most difficult skill set IMO.

Debra has made one and only one post to PN, on the day she joined. It seems likely at this point she is not going to respond.

 

Michael J. Fox, who speaks with at least some authority, says:

My happiness grows in direct proportion to my acceptance, and in inverse proportion to my expectations."

Hopefully, those who gave responses didn't expect much from the questioner when they responded. This is the Internet. And it's really not so much Debra's non-answers and lack of manners or courtesy that matter. It's that some people generously gave of their time, energy, and experience to answer a question on a public forum. Hopefully, even those not observably participating gained from their willingness to share to the community at large.

A note in a bottle thrown in the ocean may land on some shore. And someone may find a greeting from the late great PN. No genie.

so why not message her on facebook like i just did?

"you asked for help and a lot of photographers reviewed your work and gave you feedback, but you never returned. how inconsiderate that was.

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/constructive-criticism.5496718/ "

Debra, why not post photos here and ask for critiques? This site has the ability for that, and given that a percentage of the people may not use Facebook, it's also more convenient, frankly. I think you also wouldn't want critiques directly on facebook either, in case they'd be harsh or negative (assuming you use FB for promoting your activity).<br><br>

 

Unrelated, but for consideration, as a non-professional, I think there is nothing wrong with not making the leap of faith right away. Professional photography is not an easy market, and having a secure, paid, job to back up your efforts to me only seems wise. Choosing for a bit of security and stability doesn't make your dedication to your photography any less, just more realistic, and nobody should be less proud because of this.<br><br>

 

Anyway... I only gave a relatively quick look at the album on your facebook. Personally, I think the light is all quite flat, with relatively little contrast ("pop") in the photos, they lack a bit of bite and presence that way, in my view. Also, in the album you've got there, the largest shown photo has some white veil blocking the right part of the photo, it looks rather messy, I'd crop that out to get a overall cleaner composition, and I'd make sure the first photos one sees on your facebook page are definitely your prefered, don't let facebook handle the ordering for you.

 

Thank you for all your comments.

I was told I couldn't move from that area, so I was backed up to a wall, touching arms with the registrar & rounded by 3 flower girls with white balloons, all very cute but very awkward for me but you were right, you are right, so I have removed the image, next time I will definitely consider cropping out any odd bits. I do need to work on making my images 'pop'.

Hi Debra - there are many people here that can help you along with that journey - everyone has a slightly different path to their "success". Being a full time professional photographer and making a living at it is incredibly hard work, very lonely at times (many times), and has its own set of frustrations that many people don't see until they are actually there. Its not to say its not worth it - but know what you're getting into (aka don't quit a six figure job until you're ready). My advice would be to find photographers that inspire you and learn from them - whether it be 2nd shooter or within a community there are many ways to learn from others.

 

Here are some great tips from someone that inspires me (and many, many others):

• Remember City Slickers "1 thing" well, this is 3 things but same idea: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/say-no-unless-a-project-has-at-least-2-of-these-3-things/
  
• A Mentor - would be nice to have one! http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/how-to-find-mentor-and-what-to-do-when-you-get-one/
  
• Network: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/the-other-50-percent-network-community/
  
• But all this is best summarized here, no matter what you do in life: http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/the-hit-list-13-things-crucial-for-success/
  

Lastly, NGU = never give up. Even in your darkest moment of "WTF am I doing" - because those moments will come - keep going because if you really want it - you will find a way.

 

Thank you for all your advice & the links, I have many of those 'WTF am I doing' moments.. I will keep trying!

The grass is always greener on the other side. <BR><BR>

 

It is not all roses. Read the threads in the wedding section, and you can see some of the problems that some have run into.<BR><BR>

 

Filling the pipe (with clients) and keeping it full is likely to be one of the hardest things you will have to do. Very little to do with photography, everything to do with marketing. This applies to any startup business. I have a few friends who closed down their business because they could not keep the client pipe full consistently over the long term (think years or decades) to make their business support themselves. <BR><BR>

 

The standard rule for most startups is to expect to loose money for the first 5 years. Do you have enough money in savings to keep you going for that length of time? You will have income during that time, but there will be dry spells of nothing but expenses. And during that time you have to spend to keep marketing your business. Once you start to make a profit, you are not out yet, because then you are repaying yourself for the initial losses you had. The length of time to start making a profit depends on how fast you can fill the pipe with clients and keep it filled. <BR><BR>

 

As for family. Think about when most weddings are, Sat and Sun, from mid day into the evening. Are you comfortable not seeing you daughter for many of those days and nights?<BR><BR>

 

Notice that I did not mention photography or equipment. This is basic small business startup. There are a LOT of info available to help small businesses. Look for them and take advantage of as many of the programs as you can, many are free. As part of that, you need to make a business plan, a real unbiased business plan. <BR><BR>

 

It is for these and other reasons that I never gave a serious thought to going pro full-time.

Personally, I would keep doing the part time gig, but seriously step up the marketing. Because if you cannot fill the client pipe and keep it full, you won't make it.<BR><BR>

 

gud luk

Thank you for your honesty, I know there will be sacrifices to make but when it all starts to take off, it will all be worth it.

"I just want to be able to do a job that I absolutely love, be more flexible for my family & be someone my daughter can be proud of."<BR><BR>

 

Keep in mind that a lot of folks who 'love' a hobby find that they don't love it so much as a business. Taking wedding pictures is most likely the easy part. Competing for business, dealing with clients who have very specific expectations, doing all the post processing work, are all facets of the business that you might not enjoy as much - though you could certainly derive a great deal of satisfaction in a job well-done and fully appreciated.<BR><BR>

 

As for flexibility, I don't know that there is a whole lot of flexibility in making a living as a wedding photographer. Certainly, you lose most of your weekends if you are successful (which might be the most meaningful time you can spend with your daughter as she grows), and clients want their pictures sooner than later, so when you aren't shooting, you'll most likely be working on what you've shot as well as trying to drum up more business.<BR><BR>

 

As for your daughter being proud of you, most kids are proud of their parents for being good parents. I don't think they typically care what your job is.<BR><BR>

 

None of this is to say that you shouldn't try to pursue your dream, as most everyone who has ever done that has had plenty of naysayers, but going in with a full knowledge of what to expect would certainly help. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to assist a successful photographer in the area, or at least talk to them to see what their normal day is like (if they are willing to do that). You might find that keeping it as a hobby suits you much better.<BR><BR>

 

By the way, absolutely nothing wrong with your pictures, but I'm not sure they would set you apart from other wedding photographers I might be considering if I was in the market for one. <BR><BR>

Thank you, I have along way to go to be able to compete with the best but I am always willing to keep trying & keep improving.

Apropos C&C:<br><br>

 

I critiqued three wedding folders. I suggest that you consider addressing the following matters which present in images in all three of those folders:<br><br>

 

 

Framing – pay attention to the COMPOSITION especially as it pertains to the edges of the frame: there are images which cut portions of limbs or body parts or people. <br><br>

 

 

B&W Conversion – all lack the full register of Grey Tones and many have neither a Black-Black nor White-White thus rendering a “washed out” effect. This might be an artistic interpretation, if so consider that it might be being overdone, if every B&W has it. <br><br>

 

 

Flash as Fill Outdoors - many of the outdoors shots lack punch and vitality, this appears to be because of a lack of modelling and or appropriate lighting on the face areas – it appears that no Fill Light has been used in many (all?) of the outdoor Portraiture. <br><br>

 

 

Wide Angle Lenses – balance carefully the artistic effect of using a Wide Angle Lens for Portraiture and the any DISTORTIONS of the human form which might result. <br><br>

 

 

Comprehensiveness of display of work – images across the three weddings do not represent all portions of a typical wedding timeline. For one example there is no Bridal Portraiture whilst she is being prepared - other key parts of a typical wedding day are absent too. <br><br>

 

 

***<br><br>

 

 

Apropos Advice:<br><br>

 

 

Get your website up to date and start placing a range of shots that encompass the ENTIRE timeline of a typical wedding. Arguably many prospects would interpret that “facebook” is merely an adjunct to the website of a working professional – for those prospect who do not interpret the website as the main site, then it doesn’t matter anyway. In any case, a website will allow for the display of images at an higher image quality, than what is possible at "acebook"<br><br>

 

 

Ensure the shots that you show are the best you have. <br><br>

 

 

Refresh and update regularly. <br><br>

 

 

Consider including a section for Engagement and General Portraiture. <br><br>

 

 

WW

Thank you for taking the time to look at my photos, I have taken all your comments on board and will put them all to practice going forward.

I don't belong to facebook. When I go to that site provided above I get a large popup that says, "See more of Photography by Debra Brown by logging in to Facebook." Then I can either log in or sign up to continue. I choose to do neither so it is "Bye, Bye, Debra." <BR><BR>

 

I found your web page - www.photographybydebrabrown.com/<BR><BR>

 

The photos are too large for my lap top with all the border space around them on each page. I have to scroll up and down to see the entire photo. That is an irritant so again it is, "Bye, bye, Debra." <BR><BR>

[ATTACH=full]1177032[/ATTACH]

 

<BR><BR>Just some things to keep in mind and to check if you want to keep possible clients looking at your web pages.

 

Thank you, I will have this looked at and improved.

Having been both a full time professional photographer and a hobbiest -- I might observe that nothing can destroy an enjoyable hobby like making it a job. When you are a hobbiest you shoot to please yourself. When you are in business you shoot to please your customer. In addition to the photography itself there is the business and the marketing, etc. The business side of the photo business will occupy well over half your time if you do it right. To be successful and have the experience be rewarding you should enjoy both the photo and business side of the operation.

 

Thank you, hopefully I will find a good balance to enjoy both.

How have you progressed since receiving the feedback from this forum?

 

WW

I have to be honest, some of honest comments had really scared me and had quite a negative effect on my confidence. I didn't log back onto photo.net for a while and didn't realise i'd gotten so much more critique and advice until a couple of people have messaged me on FB to respond. I had put so much pressure on myself to 'make it work', i stopped enjoying just taking photos. I'd put my camera down for a little while and then a friend of mine fell pregnant and I offered to take some maternity photos of her and that was the first time i picked up my camera in along while. I really enjoyed the time capturing this special time for her and she cried when she saw the photos, her message to me was 'i have never seen myself like this before, its been so empowering.' I mean, that made me feel so happy to have done that for her. But for now, i am going to keep it as a hobby and just enjoy taking photos again.

I would be interested as well. No one has all the answers. Not even most of the answers. Self confidence and management skills are often the bottom line. Everyone here probably has some of your skills. How are you doing is a good question from the Moderator. Think of it as group therapy. Get back to us if possible. Be well. Enjoying a hobby is good enough for most of us. Earning a real living is another story. Self taught? Now that is something that might earn a second look. An apprenticeship will test many things I mean. And a workshop can be fun as well whether for hobby or step towards making some cash. Parenting is likely the most difficult skill set IMO.

Thank you, yes being a parent is tough and a skill set i'm still learning one day at a time.

Thank you to Nair Byad & David C Stephens for messaging me on FB and bringing to my attention all the feed back i had received. Please note it was not my intention to be inconsiderate or rude and make some people seem quite angry and negative but I have now read every single response and have taken it all on board. Thank you so very much for taking the time to look through my photos and giving your honest opinions and advice. You have been really great, I really didn't expect so much feedback. I understand a photography business is not all unicorns & rainbows, nothing worth doing is ever easy! x

I have to be honest, some of honest comments had really scared me and had quite a negative effect on my confidence.. . . . i stopped enjoying just taking photos. I'd put my camera down for a little while . . . Please note it was not my intention to be inconsiderate or rude and make some people seem quite angry and negative

 

A few comments -

 

Firstly it is important to remember that when asking for Comment and Critique the responses will often be varied in tone and content: for example my C&C was premised with >1500 weddings under my belt - that's not mentioned to blow my own horn, but rather to explain that in no way was I considering your emotional reaction to what I wrote I was simply critiquing the images in a Wedding Photographer's Portfolio.

 

"Confidence" can be an elusive component: I think it best not to mix it up with the passion for always wanting feedback. The thing about feedback is once you own it the YOU can choose what to do with it. If you think the bag of feedback is irrelevant or worthless then you can choose to chuck it away . . . its a matter of how you look at life, generally

 

Don't worry too much about that some responses might have display anger. Those responses indeed might have been written in anger - but more likely frustration was the root cause: there are many thousands of years of experience residing in this forum's membership and there are many one hit wonders - people who post one question, get may thoughtful responses and the OP never returns... soem members get frustrated at that cycle.

 

Don't stress about putting your "professional" camera down for a while or even for ever if that hat doesn't fit you: my opinion is enjoy what you do is the first criterion.

 

WW

Edited October 3, 2017 by William Michael

But for now, i am going to keep it as a hobby and just enjoy taking photos again.

 

And there is nothing wrong with that !

For sure, my intent was not to scare you away from pursuing the path of being a professional, and I hope I didn't as in the end, following your passions is not unimportant. The point, though, is whether the passion about photography is the same as running a photography business. I've been lucky enough that my job (which has nothing to do with photography) came from a hobby/passion. After a few years, I noticed that hobby had gone, having traded places with work, deadlines, KPIs, business realities etc. That does quite kill the fun. When I picked up photography more seriously, I more or less promised myself to protect this passion, and keep it a hobby strictly. A creative outlet, so to speak.

Becoming a photography professional isn't required to become a good photographer (I hope), but passion is. So keep enjoying it, as William said, that is the first and foremost criterion.